Brans weirwood visions

[Ashkan Stark]

I think U don't understand what I was tried to say. I say if R+L=J is true and Ned lies to Cat, he really don't need to pray to gods for Cats forgiveness, he can just tell her and she understands. She could keep this secret couldn't she?

but if R+L=J is not true, he really needs to pray for Cats forgiveness.

[Golden_Griffin]

A pregnant women coming out of the black pool praying for a son to avenge her;

I know this doesn't fit in with everyone's assumption that the visions go back in time, but perhaps that's not right...I can only see one thing from this prediction; in the future Jeyne Westerling/Stark is hiding with Howland Reed (black pool) praying Robb's son will avenge her and the North

[Winter's Lady]

I think U don't understand what I was tried to say. I say if R+L=J is true and Ned lies to Cat, he really don't need to pray to gods for Cats forgiveness, he can just tell her and she understands. She could keep this secret couldn't she?

but if R+L=J is not true, he really needs to pray for Cats forgiveness.

Ah, I see what you mean.

Still, even if Cat would forgive him after he explains everything(and that's a big if, I still think she would be pissed as hell), his conscience would still haunt him for lying. His strongest traits are honesty and honor, after all.

Or do you mean if he hadn't lied to her in the first place? In that case, it's clear that he has to lie to protect Jon, Cat and the rest of his family alike.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think U don't understand what I was tried to say. I say if R+L=J is true and Ned lies to Cat, he really don't need to pray to gods for Cats forgiveness, he can just tell her and she understands. She could keep this secret couldn't she?

but if R+L=J is not true, he really needs to pray for Cats forgiveness.

What? The point is that he can't tell her who Jon's parents are, both for her protection and Jon's. He has to go on living that lie constantly and permanently. It's not a matter of him saying, "Oh by the way Cat, Jon's not really my bastard." He can never, ever tell her the truth.

[Ashkan Stark]

Why he can't do that. she is a person that Ned trust very very much. it is very big I know and that thing about honor and stuff is correct. The thing is we can take two different meaning from that line and because I don't like this R+L=J theory, I wanna go with Jon being Ned's son and in that case he should beg Cat for forgiveness.

but in the other way he doesn't need to be that mush sorry, he did the right thing and it's the result of it.

In the end I consent that he needs Cat forgiveness .

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

he lied to her. that's why he is praying for forgiveness

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why he can't do that. she is a person that Ned trust very very much. it is very big I know and that thing about honor and stuff is correct. The thing is we can take two different meaning from that line and because I don't like this R+L=J theory, I wanna go with Jon being Ned's son and in that case he should beg Cat for forgiveness.

but in the other way he doesn't need to be that mush sorry, he did the right thing and it's the result of it.

In the end I consent that he needs Cat forgiveness .

1. When he brought Jon back, he and Catelyn were virtually strangers. He had no way of knowing if she'd keep the secret or sell him out to Robert. Their love and trust came later and by then the lie was firmly entrenched.

2. Ned committed treason by sheltering Jon and lying about his parentage. If Robert had found out, both Ned and Jon would have been killed. If Catelyn knew about Jon's parentage, she too would be liable for treason and could be punished. By keeping her in the dark, Ned assures that he can honestly say she knew nothing about it. He gives her plausible deniability and ensures that she can't be executed for his crime.

3. The ruse depends on Catelyn treating Jon like he's a bastard. If she treats him too kindly or generously or motherly, people might get suspicious and wonder why. The only surefire way for Catelyn to treat Jon as a bastard if she actually thinks he's a bastard.

4. The fewer people know about something, the less likely it is to get out. This is just common sense.

[Lykos]

@Ashkan Stark

The less people know the better. The other thing is that the public must believe that Jon is Ned´s bastard and by this Cat´s reputation is tarnished.

[Peach Fuzz]

I know this doesn't fit in with everyone's assumption that the visions go back in time, but perhaps that's not right...I can only see one thing from this prediction; in the future Jeyne Westerling/Stark is hiding with Howland Reed (black pool) praying Robb's son will avenge her and the North

that is a shout im with you there he could be looking into the future rah you blew my mind with that!!!!!

[Lykos]

Did a rundown of the visions Bran sees through the Winterfell heart tree and what I think they might mean.

Ok, gonna write in the scenes as they go back in time and we can maybe do some serious speculation on some of them, who they are:

--Young Eddard, talking about Jon and Robb. This would have been right after the end of Robert's uprising. (283 AL, 17 years ago)

5-6 YEAR GAP

--Older girl looks like Arya, younger boy with longish hair, fighting at sticks. These two must be Lyanna and Benjen. (If he thought it was Arya, Lyanna was probably around 10-11 in this vision, putting us at 277 AL, 23 years ago)

16-34 YEAR GAP

--Woman heavy with child, kneels before tree and asks the old gods for a son who would avenge her. (Some suggest mother of Ramsay Bolton, but that cannot be right if we're going back in time to before Lyanna and Benjen as children. Ramsay Snow is in his 20's.)

My best guess is this is the unknown mother of Eddard, Brandon, Benjen and Lyanna, OR the unknown mother of Rickard Stark, who is thought to be an only child. If it is Rickard's wife, this would be around 261 AL, 39 years ago. If it is Rickard's mom, this is probably around 243 AL, 57 years ago.

28-46 YEAR GAP

--Slender brown haired girl kisses a young knight as tall as Hodor.

The tall knight could probably be Duncan, and as the next novella is set at Winterfell, that seems a good guess. The Rebellion at Whitewalls happened in 212 AL, and so if the next novella is a year or two after that (following the pattern so far), this probably happens in 214 or 215 AL, 85 years ago. The girl he kisses might be Edwyle Stark's sister, who went on to marry a Royce.

25 YEAR GAP

--Pale and fierce dark-eyed youth slices 3 branches off the weirwood and makes them into arrows.

Think this has to be a young Bloodraven. He killed Daemon Blackfyre at the battle of Redgrass field with arrows and bow made from Weirwood. He's also an albino, which would definitely fit the pale and dark-eyed. He was born 175 AL, so being a "youth" would probably put him around 16-18 years old. Call it 16 years old, or 191 AL, which would make this scene around 109 years ago.

--Visions start to come faster, skip more time, maybe. Bran is seeing Lords that are tall and hard stern men in mail and fur. (They are probably Torrhen Stark and ancestors?)

--Last and probably earliest vision, the sacrifice before the heart tree. During the time of the First Men, maybe (see bronze weapon instead of steel). Maybe this is how the First Men worshipped the Old Gods before the Andals came. And maybe the blood is what woke the weirwoods.

ETA: Back to OP.

[Ashkan Stark]

Well these some good reasons Apple Martini :D I fully consent :D

P.S: the more I think about R+L=J the more I belive it. but I still don't like it:D :|

[Lykos]

Pale fierce dark-eyed youth does not fit Bloodraven. Albinos´ eye colour is lighter not darker than usual, GRRM seems to mess up eyecolour sometimes though, and if you think of eyes lying deep in the head with shadows around them as dark-eyed it might fit.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

As for the captive, like Apple Martini noted, the bronze sickle indicates that this was before the Andal invasion. The First Men faith is based on the early Celtic faith,the Celts practiced some forms of human sacrifice, and sometimes they sacrificed captives in groves of trees they considered sacred. Human sacrifice was also a way of girding for winter by reducing the number of mouths to feed.

There are also tales from European prehistory of Kings of Winter who are sacrificed to bring an end to winter. Lots of wine & women for a short time. And then the chop. Perhaps in the very dim and distant past the Starks had to perform this aspect of being “kings of winter”. Especially if it has lasted longer than was comfortable and fears of a new Long Night are growing. And this is what Bran has seen.

And he has seen it because it is exactly this kind of blood sacrifice that will be needed again.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

Ned committed treason by sheltering Jon and lying about his parentage. If Robert had found out, both Ned and Jon would have been killed. If Catelyn knew about Jon's parentage, she too would be liable for treason and could be punished. By keeping her in the dark, Ned assures that he can honestly say she knew nothing about it. He gives her plausible deniability and ensures that she can't be executed for his crime.

Best of luck pleading plausible deniability to Feudal Kings in general and Bob Baratheon in particular!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Best of luck pleading plausible deniability to Feudal Kings in general and Bob Baratheon in particular!

Better some chance of leniency than none, which is what she would have had if she'd known.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

Better some chance of leniency than none, which is what she would have had if she'd known.

If R+L=J then it was best Ned didn't tell Cat. Not least because of 1,2 & 4. But I doubt that the Ned, who wanted Cersei and her kids to flee Roberts wrath, thought ignorance would grant much bliss to Cat and his kids if it was discovered that Ned has covered up...well everything R+L=J implies and what the all the Starks involvement in that must be.

I’m guessing bloodbath. And attainder just to top it off.

[David C. Hunter]

If R+L=J then it was best Ned didn't tell Cat. Not least because of 1,2 & 4. But I doubt that the Ned, who wanted Cersei and her kids to flee Roberts wrath, thought ignorance would grant much bliss to Cat and his kids if it was discovered that Ned has covered up...well everything R+L=J implies and what the all the Starks involvement in that must be.

I’m guessing bloodbath. And attainder just to top it off.

IDK sometimes when I read that section it seems that Ned knew that telling Cersei would probably lead to his downfall for whatever reason

[Sasha Steelsong]

I know this doesn't fit in with everyone's assumption that the visions go back in time, but perhaps that's not right...I can only see one thing from this prediction; in the future Jeyne Westerling/Stark is hiding with Howland Reed (black pool) praying Robb's son will avenge her and the North

Never thought of the possibility because the rest seemed to be such ancient visions but as I go back and forth as to whether Jayne should be pregnant, I'd say I'd be cool with it if it turned out this way.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I've always wondered about that vision of the pregnant woman wanting vengeance. I've never heard that She-wolves theory before, but I like it alot :thumbsup:

As to why Bloodraven might have gone North in his youth, he is a Greenseer afterall. If he was a young man just learning how to master his abilities, the North would be the perfect (and really only) place to go to do some research (COTF maybe?). I definitely remember reading about Bloodraven killing Daemon Blackfyre with arrows. Maybe he saw that event coming in one of his his greendreams/visions, so he cut the weirwood arrows off the tree signifigantly ahead of when the war even started.

[Ashkan Stark]

Someone told that may be it is Robb's wife. I guess it can be true. She was in the Riverrun with BF and I remember that there was Godswood in there. I think this vision was after scape of BF. so it can be true. I think Jayne being peregnet really makes sense and it really matches with BF's scape