Lesbian Sex Encounters in Books...and Renly/Loras

[Roose Seal]

I must be so silly to have missed the whole Renly\Loras thing. . I haven't seen the show yet though. Is there even any pointed hints in the novel? Or are we just reading between the lines?

There's plenty of hints in the books that Renly and Loras were lovers. I'm sure there's like two dozen threads on this very subject here.

The show made it... a little more obvious, to say the least.

[teemo]

I think I remember GRRM saying in an interview he couldn't believe how shocked people were by them being gay in the HBO show, when he thought it was fairly clear that they were lovers. People actually thought it was made up only for the show, but it's been in the book all along.

But it's still pretty easy to miss with just one read-through and all of the other stuff going on, since it never turned out to be that significant.

And I wasn't trying to make some noble justification for it (not sure that was geared toward me, or just in general). I respect GRRM enough to not just assume those scenes were made for horny teenagers (I would say guys, but some of us go both ways). Not to mention, the Cersei scene was more creepy, not sexy, especially after a re-read of it. And I don't think she temporarily "turned gay." Did you notice how bored and disappointed she was with it? I didn't feel like I was reading a passionate sex scene. If it were some other author I might say, "yep, that was just for the hell of it," but I'll give him a bit more credit than that. However, maybe that's simply all there is to it. There's a lot of weird, random shit in ASOIAF, and it's not all lesbian sex.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

I actually really like the sex scenes in this series, very honest and relatable. . And cater to a few different quirks :D and the last series i read before these was the Anita Blake series. . And i wasn't sure any written sex scenes could compare to the ABUNDANCE and craziness of those lol sorry off topic.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Ps, rereading Game now and am going to keep am eagle eye out for Loras/Renly action.

[Roose Seal]

And I wasn't trying to make some noble justification for it (not sure that was geared toward me, or just in general).

I meant in general yeah. I've seen people say that the random outbursts of lesbian sex was essential to the development of the characters. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't ... but the fact that there is no gay sex makes me lean towards the latter.

I respect GRRM enough to not just assume those scenes were made for horny teenagers (I would say guys, but some of us go both ways). Not to mention, the Cersei scene was more creepy, not sexy, especially after a re-read of it. And I don't think she temporarily "turned gay." Did you notice how bored and disappointed she was with it? I didn't feel like I was reading a passionate sex scene. If it were some other author I might say, "yep, that was just for the hell of it," but I'll give him a bit more credit than that. However, maybe that's simply all there is to it. There's a lot of weird, random shit in ASOIAF, and it's not all lesbian sex.

I would give him the benefit of the doubt if man-on-man sex got the same treatment, but it didn't and as a result, the lesbian sex appeared to me as little more than gratuitous pleasing. See what I mean ?

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Even if it was who cares? The books are entertainment aren't they?

[Roose Seal]

Some people care about equality, even in fiction. *shrugs*

[teemo]

GRRM is just so detailed with everything, with such "purpose," that I find myself looking into symbolism and hidden meanings in everything, even when it's possibly not there. And yeah, I was starting to think maybe it was just made for "hotness" factor when man-on-man wasn't given the same treatment. Who knows :) Maybe TWOW will have several gay scenes and surprise the hell out of me :P You never know with GRRM. I love how fearless he is with his writing and has no boundaries...I could actually see him doing it if it made sense plot-wise.

[Lord of Cheese]

I watched quite a few of GRRMs interviews and several times he describes his writing process as an "immersive" one. He would to stacks of research on various topics, and one of those is erotica. You only need to do a quick search on ancient roman sexual practices to see they were total sexaholics. I suspect that what GRRM writes is quite tame compared to what actually happened in real life in ancient times (and possibly modern times too).

I didnt really see a problem with the sex scenes in the books. They were quite entertaining actually ;-) Myrish swamp ftw! lol No idea wh the man-on-man treatment is less than the lesbian treatment. The women tend to sleep with each other as bed-companions wheras the men dont. So i guess there is much less opportunity for it with men.

I would have laughed myself stupid if Joff had Sandor as a bed companion. hahaha

[teemo]

The women tend to sleep with each other as bed-companions wheras the men dont. So i guess there is much less opportunity for it with men.

Good point...

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I just want to point out that the Loras-Renly scene in the show was everything but sexy. It was just the only way the showrunners could think of of telling us that they are gay and lovers. Yes, double standard much. We did already have the lesbian sex scene with Dany when she is being shown by Doreah the arts of love. I'm not sure how that was presented in the books but I imagined it less sexy and more technical than in the show. So I say the sex scenes will be heavily sexy and sort of comforting for Dany as that is what her scene is about. I doubt they show the handmaiden turning away after having done her duty not really having enjoyed it. Cersei's on the other hand will be about dominance so I don't think people will see it as sexy.

But I do hope that I will get to see a sexy gay male scene, like with a kiss or something first. But I guess this is a futile hope.

As far as the books go, the lack of Loras Renly can be explained by GRRM wanting to keep this subtext, but he is capable of writing them as lovers, like with the famous "when the candle has set, there will never again be another light like it" line. I wonder how long it took Loras to come up with that.

Again, I see Cersei's scene as exploring her character and wanting to be powerful and have her own agency "like a man". Dany's second sex scene on the other hand is just purely GRRM wanting to write lesbian sex. he could have the servant girl let her comfort in a thousand other ways, but he chose the sex, because all women can do women on women sex, it is known. Whereas with two men, god forbid...:rolleyes:

[ipsuel]

I think it was (2) different reasons...

Cersei: it was a power thing... but for Dany, she's young and still growing into her sexuality. I was not shocked at all by that... it was the folly of youth, so to speak.

[Linda]

Dany's second sex scene on the other hand is just purely GRRM wanting to write lesbian sex. he could have the servant girl let her comfort in a thousand other ways, but he chose the sex, because all women can do women on women sex, it is known. Whereas with two men, god forbid... :rolleyes:

No, sorry. Having her be comforted via a sexual act emphasises her separation from her companions so much more. A friend would hug her. Someone who sees themselves as primarily subservient and not on the same level as her would offer a service, in this case sex. This was a much more powerful way of showing how lonely Dany is, not because she accepts a sexual favour from another woman but because that woman offers a sexual favour and not a friendly hug.

[Roose Seal]

I watched quite a few of GRRMs interviews and several times he describes his writing process as an "immersive" one. He would to stacks of research on various topics, and one of those is erotica. You only need to do a quick search on ancient roman sexual practices to see they were total sexaholics. I suspect that what GRRM writes is quite tame compared to what actually happened in real life in ancient times (and possibly modern times too).

The sex scenes I think are actually really tame. Even if they're quite graphically described, the sex itself is pretty pedestrian. I mean some people were actually shocked that Jon would go down on Ygritte after penetrating her.. I don't see anything incredible about that. With the exception of maybe The Mountain and Ramsay, who are downright psychopaths, the people of Westeros are pretty traditionnal when it comes to sex.

Perfectly normal people in real life do much more extreme things and there's all sorts of unusual fetishes out there. When I visited the Museum of Erotica in Paris they had a collection of early 20th century porno flicks and even by today's standards...they were pretty shocking (nun on dog, for instance) and they had a temporary exhibit on fetishes and that's how I found out about lactophilia..and unsurprisingly, it's exactly what the name implies.

I didnt really see a problem with the sex scenes in the books. They were quite entertaining actually ;-) Myrish swamp ftw! lol No idea wh the man-on-man treatment is less than the lesbian treatment. The women tend to sleep with each other as bed-companions wheras the men dont. So i guess there is much less opportunity for it with men.

I can think of plenty situations in the books that would organically lead to man-on-man sex : the Night's Watch, for instance, is basically an army of horny teenage boys who aren't allowed to have sex. C'mon.

I just want to point out that the Loras-Renly scene in the show was everything but sexy. It was just the only way the showrunners could think of of telling us that they are gay and lovers. Yes, double standard much. We did already have the lesbian sex scene with Dany when she is being shown by Doreah the arts of love. I'm not sure how that was presented in the books but I imagined it less sexy and more technical than in the show. So I say the sex scenes will be heavily sexy and sort of comforting for Dany as that is what her scene is about. I doubt they show the handmaiden turning away after having done her duty not really having enjoyed it. Cersei's on the other hand will be about dominance so I don't think people will see it as sexy.

But I do hope that I will get to see a sexy gay male scene, like with a kiss or something first. But I guess this is a futile hope.

Aww now you didn't think the close-ups of Renly getting his chest shaved were sexy? :rolleyes:

Show was even more conspicuous than the books. We have the Dany scene and that embarassing Littlefinger scene (GRIND ON HER MORE!! COME ON!!) on one hand and .. armpit shaving and fake blowjob sounds (seriously) on the other. What's that about Double Standards ? :P

As far as the books go, the lack of Loras Renly can be explained by GRRM wanting to keep this subtext, but he is capable of writing them as lovers, like with the famous "when the candle has set, there will never again be another light like it" line. I wonder how long it took Loras to come up with that.

That "candle" line was great because it hinted at a true romantic relationship between Loras and Renly and not just a sex thing.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Cersei wishes that she had been born a man and likes to do as Robert did to her. As with many other things she does, it's a perverse power thing. She needs to feel she is powerful (in bed) and she also feels powerful when she acts like Robert acted towards her. She is a person who likes to abuse people and feels more powerful when she does so.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

With Dany, I think it was partially to show how she had changed culturally. Being with the Dothraki, who took a far more bestial attitude towards sex (no shame in it as such), it just becomes about pleasing each other, regardless of gender. I can't remember who it is she has pleasure her, but I'm pretty sure it was part of her role as a slave to please the khaleesi, there being no gay/straight thought in it. As for why GRRM chose to write the scenes, I'm not really sure. I think gay scenes may have been more laughable than erotic, every time I read someone mention Sam's stiff pink mast I still laugh as hard as I did the first time I read it in the book.

[Ygrain]

Ps, rereading Game now and am going to keep am eagle eye out for Loras/Renly action.

I don't think you will find (m)any; there are lots of hints throughout the series related to Renly's homosexuality. When Renly tells Stannis that he has married a pretty maiden, Stannis replies something like "in your bed, she'll remain a maiden". Later on, when Tyrion is married to Sansa, he hires a woman who formerly served at Renly's household, which is why she is supposed to be used to turning a blind eye to things around.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I don't think you will find (m)any; there are lots of hints throughout the series related to Renly's homosexuality. When Renly tells Stannis that he has married a pretty maiden, Stannis replies something like "in your bed, she'll remain a maiden". Later on, when Tyrion is married to Sansa, he hires a woman who formerly served at Renly's household, which is why she is supposed to be used to turning a blind eye to things around.

Jaime's quote was still my favourite. Something like "Sheathe your sword or I'll shove it someplace even Renly never found."

[SeanF]

There are certainly loads of hints about Renly/Loras in the books, yet, had GRRM not confirmed that they were lovers, I still wouldn't have been sure, because so many of them come in the form of snide comments, like "that bugger's trick played by the knight of pansies."

[LiamBridge]

I think I remember GRRM saying in an interview he couldn't believe how shocked people were by them being gay in the HBO show, when he thought it was fairly clear that they were lovers. People actually thought it was made up only for the show, but it's been in the book all along.

But it's still pretty easy to miss with just one read-through and all of the other stuff going on, since it never turned out to be that significant.

And I wasn't trying to make some noble justification for it (not sure that was geared toward me, or just in general). I respect GRRM enough to not just assume those scenes were made for horny teenagers (I would say guys, but some of us go both ways). Not to mention, the Cersei scene was more creepy, not sexy, especially after a re-read of it. And I don't think she temporarily "turned gay." Did you notice how bored and disappointed she was with it? I didn't feel like I was reading a passionate sex scene. If it were some other author I might say, "yep, that was just for the hell of it," but I'll give him a bit more credit than that. However, maybe that's simply all there is to it. There's a lot of weird, random shit in ASOIAF, and it's not all lesbian sex.

Since I watched the show before reading the book I was lookig out for it going into the book, and it is there if you read carefully, in ACOK theres quit a few big hints.

Also was that last comment about the teenage boys directed at me? lol.