Why can't Aegon be the real deal?

[kg1982]

I have that feeling that Jon and aegon will get allong fine I think they'll have a http://tvtropes.org/...n/RedOniBlueOni dynamic

dany might be problematic IMHO might be forced to play the third fiddle

It doesn't matter how Jon and Faegon get on.. It only matters that it diminishes Jon's story. If Aegon turns out to be the rightful king, he, by virtue of his title, gets to be the one leading the army into the final battle and gets to be the one giving orders. Jon will have to defer to Aegon's decision because Aegon would be the king. I think that Jon deserves his moment of glory rallying Westros and leading them into battle. There are lots of neat scenes that might come in the future such as ordering the Iron Throne melted down to make more magical weapons to fight the Others. (The Iron Throne was forged with dragon's breath and seems to have magical properties.) However, I want Jon giving that order, not some teenage brat that we just met.

And Jon is actually the less problematic of the two. Dany's whole arc is about her being the blood of the dragons and conquering Westros.

[Lyanna Stark]

If the Golden Company was that bent on putting Aegon in the Iron Throne because he was a Blackfyre, then why are they and Aegon wishing to join forces with Daenerys ? They just went on ahead without her to look a little better when she actually arrives.

They do? They march off to Westeros almost immidiately. Also: Jon Connington and Aegon think Aegon is a Targaryen, but Jon Con notes that the leader of the Golden Company already knew Aegon's secret. The question is of course: which secret? Has Illyrio/Varys told them he's a Targaryen...or a Blackfyre? Illyrio says himself "Some contracts are written in blood" and the Golden Company was created from Blackfyres. Further, Viserys tried to get them to go with him in AGOT, but they laughed at him.

The only reason I could see them allow Dany is because she has dragons, and if she would marry Aegon...well, he's a Blackfyre, which would mean on the face of it, the children would be called Targaryens, but they would really be Blackfyres.

Also, Tyrion lampshades fake!Aegon when he thinks of Ser Jorah's silver haired prostitute that there are loads and loads of silver haired girls with purple eyes in Volantis. Basically "anyone here could pretend to be a Targaryen".

[kkae]

I like to think that Aegon is a Blackfyre, because that would be cool.

However, I don't think there is enough evidence to prove whether he is real or fake.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Explain Lenore.

[Jamie Lannister]

I like to think that Aegon is a Blackfyre, because that would be cool.

However, I don't think there is enough evidence to prove whether he is real or fake.

The fact that there's this much ambiguity in the first place is pretty telling. I'm certain he's not the real thing; it's just all too convenient.

[Lyanna Stark]

Explain Lenore.

Tyene Sand's mother, possibly. She has the wrong colouring to be Ashara Dayne, if that is what you're after. Unless you believe her to be Elia? Why would Elia not have turned to her brothers in their grief. It also turns Oberyn's vengeance against Gregor completely pointless.

[the Scorpion Knight]

It doesn't matter how Jon and Faegon get on.. It only matters that it diminishes Jon's story.

does it really?Jon's story isn't the one of a bastard turned king. IMHO but of an outcast becoming kingsmaker

[kwvapor]

Tyene Sand's mother, possibly. She has the wrong colouring to be Ashara Dayne, if that is what you're after. Unless you believe her to be Elia? Why would Elia not have turned to her brothers in their grief. It also turns Oberyn's vengeance against Gregor completely pointless.

Lemore might be the real mystery.

Elia. If true, they can seek out Dorne's help without capturing a castle prior to talks as Jon Con suggests.

Tyene Sand's mother? Same as above.

Ashara. I'm not sure on this but if Lyanna says the hair color doesn't match up then. Also no.

3 strikes, definitely the true mystery.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Lemore might be the real mystery.

Elia. If true, they can seek out Dorne's help without capturing a castle prior to talks as Jon Con suggests.

Tyene Sand's mother? Same as above.

Ashara. I'm not sure on this but if Lyanna says the hair color doesn't match up then. Also no.

3 strikes, definitely the true mystery.

Lemore’s hair-color matches Ashara’s. But shall we judge a woman by her hair-color, especially without checking out their roots? I say not.

What’s Lemore’s angle, especially if she’s Ashara?

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer

Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.

“Wretch,” I cried, “thy God hath lent thee – by these angels he has sent thee

Respite – respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore!

Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe, and

forget this lost Lenore!

”

Quoth the raven, “Nevermore.”

Lost but not forgotten is our lusty lass, Lemore.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lenore’s hair-color matches Ashara’s.

Depends what you mean with "matches". Lemore has brown hair, Ashara Dayne had dark hair and "striking violet eyes". If she has such unusual eyes, you'd think normally perceptive Tyrion would have noticed?

Elia is extremely unlikely as it would be hard to find an Elia look alike for Gregor to rape and kill.

That leaves Tyene Sand's mother as a possible "known" entity.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Depends what you mean with "matches". Lemore has brown hair, Ashara Dayne had dark hair and "striking violet eyes". If she has such unusual eyes, you'd think normally perceptive Tyrion would have noticed

How could you think that brown hair isn’t dark? Anyway, eyes change color over the course of a lifetime, just as hair color does. I say it’s a certain match, and people are making stupidly much of the sound of the dog that didn’t bark in the night.

The whole Ashara–Eddard thing has a bunch of pieces we don’t yet understand. Probably ‘twas she who told him where Lyanna was. They must have schemed after he returned Dawn to the Daynes, soon after which she the strong swimmer faked her own death by drowning and went into exile.

But why?

[Lyanna Stark]

Eyes change color over the course of a lifetime, just as hair color does. I say it’s a match, and people are making stupidly much of the sound of the dog that didn’t bark in the night.

So you don't think it's a bit of a long shot that a dead woman makes a random appearance for no reason other than we want her to? What would Ashara gain from faking a suicide and going to tag along with a Blackfyre anyway?

And regarding appearance: you mean that since it's sorta kinda almost like Ashara on a good day, it has to be her?

[danm_999]

How could you think that brown hair isn’t dark? Anyway, eyes change color over the course of a lifetime, just as hair color does. I say it’s a certain match, and people are making stupidly much of the sound of the dog that didn’t bark in the night.

The whole Ashara–Eddard thing has a bunch of pieces we don’t yet understand. Probably ‘twas she who told him where Lyanna was. They must have schemed after he returned Dawn to the Daynes, soon after which she the strong swimmer faked her own death by drowning and went into exile.

But why?

Yeah as much as I like far out 'dissapears and is actually this other character' theories, I really can't get behind them where there's no motivation for the character to do so and the character apparently does not have the same physical appearance as the person they're supposed to be.

[CrypticWeirwood]

So you don't think it's a bit of a long shot that a dead woman makes a random appearance for no reason other than we want her to? What would Ashara gain from faking a suicide and going to tag along with a Blackfyre anyway?

And regarding appearance: you mean that since it's sorta kinda almost like Ashara on a good day, it has to be her?

You’re wrong: It’s not random. And you’re wrong: I never wanted her to.

Whatever it was Ashara she did, it wasn’t because of Blackfyres. You’re wrong there, too.

But hey there, you just earned yourself a shiny new place on my IGNORE THAT CRETIN list reserved for for belligerent belittlers who shove their own words in other people’s mouths and then have the temerity to excoriate them for it. Congratuations!

Don’t worry, though. In a few years, I’ll come back to make you eat your words when Martin proves you were wrong and I am right.

[kg1982]

does it really?Jon's story isn't the one of a bastard turned king. IMHO but of an outcast becoming kingsmaker

See I'm seeing Jon's story as bastard is really the true born king written in Neon Lights since I learned about R+L=J. Why else would his parentage matter. Anybody can play kingmaker. Also, not really sure what redeeming qualities that Jon would see in Faegon to make him support his claim. Why not just continue to support Stannis, who actually has shown himself worthy to be king by bailing out the Night's Watch.

Also, as I mentioned above, the story ends on a battle of the Trident against the Others. I want Jon leading that battle not some bratty kid we meet in the 5th book of a 7 book series, and if Faegon turns about to be the real king, then he actually gets to lead the battle. This doesn't mean that Jon actually remains king after the battle - He could die or decide to honor his vows. Westros is likely to split into multiple kingdoms (the North, the Dorne, the Iron Islands will become independent at the very least).

[Lyanna Stark]

You’re wrong: It’s not random. And you’re wrong: I never wanted her to.

OK, why am I wrong. You have not explained why, just told me I am wrong. Go on, present your proofs.

Whatever it was Ashara she did, it wasn’t because of Blackfyres. You’re wrong there, too.

How am I wrong? I never stated she had anything to do with the Blackfyres, I stated the opposite. You claim she does something for someone, most likely Eddard. And why on earth would he plot with Varys and Illyrio and Ashara to smuggle out Aegon from Kings Landing? Ned certainly doesn't think about this at all, unlike how much he thinks about Lyanna and her promise, i.e. Jon.

But you know, maybe you have a 100% brilliant theory nobody has thought of before.

But hey there, you just earned yourself a shiny new place on my IGNORE THAT CRETIN list reserved for for belligerent belittlers woh shove words in other people’s mouths and then excoriate them for it. Congratuations!

Don’t worry, though. In a few years, I’ll come back to make you eat your words when Martin proves you were wrong and I am right.

Well, thank you for your very nice ad hominem attack. Which btw is against the board rules.

So far, you have presented zero evidence to support your claims and felt the need to resort to ad hominem attacks. Pardon me for not being convinced by your argumentation. If that makes me a belligerent belittler, I am sure I am not alone in that category.

[kwvapor]

You’re wrong: It’s not random. And you’re wrong: I never wanted her to.

Whatever it was Ashara she did, it wasn’t because of Blackfyres. You’re wrong there, too.

But hey there, you just earned yourself a shiny new place on my IGNORE THAT CRETIN list reserved for for belligerent belittlers woh shove words in other people’s mouths and then excoriate them for it. Congratuations!

Don’t worry, though. In a few years, I’ll come back to make you eat your words when Martin proves you were wrong and I am right.

Let's here your theory. You didn't really elaborate much. What is the significance of lemore = Ashara?

[Lummel]

I don't think that if Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne that it makes much if any difference to the fake vs real Aegon debate. Ashara Dayne doesn't represent a chain of custody from Elia of Dorne to Jon Connington, she would have been away from Kings Landing with her own pregnancy at the cruical time. Like Connington she would have been introduced to the child at a later stage after having been recruited to the cause by Varys or one of his agents.

This would from our point of potentially tighten the timeframe, although we only know that Connington was involved with Aegon five years after the sack, we don't know if Septa Lemore was involved in Aegon's life before or after Connington arrived on the scene.

Connington in his POV thinks of her as Septa Lemore, but then seeing as he only had eyes for Rhaegar maybe he didn't much notice the beautiful young woman in attendance on Elia of Dorne, however it does imply that she - if she is Ashara Dayne - never revealed herself to him either.

If Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne the chances are that she, like connington, believes the child to be genuinely Prince Aegon, but that's hardly proof that he is.

[kg1982]

Lemore could still be Ashara and Fageon could still be a Blackfrye. It could be a similar situation as with Jon Con - Ashara fakes her own death and goes to Essos. I'm thinking that it is a self-imposed exile. Her dear friend Elia had just been brutally raped and murdered and Elia's children brutally murdered as well. She likely clued Ned about the Tower of Joy and ended up getting her brother killed. Also, there's no guarantee that she and Ned agreed about what to do with Jon. Perhaps, Ashara hoped that Ned would support his nephew's claim and avenge the Targaryens. They could have quarreled about it.

So Ashara goes to Essos and six years later or so Illyrio comes to her and says that Aegon is alive. Ashara sees this as an opening to avenge her friend Elia and agrees to help Aegon. Like Jon Con, Ashara Dayne becomes a dupe in Varys master plan. What better way to make people think that Faegon is actually Rhaegar's son than to have Rhaegar's bestie and Elia's bestie vouch for his legitimacy.

[kkae]

The fact that there's this much ambiguity in the first place is pretty telling. I'm certain he's not the real thing; it's just all too convenient.

True but still we can't be certain.