Christina Ceriddwynn Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 so what was the chapter again???? I've forgotten............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ok, folksies :) I think we should go with the Black wedding! It plunged Sansa into hitherto unknown depths of despair, but still, she was able to use it as a cover to continue plotting her escape with Dontos; and Tyrion could not see beneath her despair to glean that she was really plotting something something. Black can also symbolise the hatred Sanas feels for Cersei. Also, her acceptance of Sandor's white cloak could be considered as a wedding of sorts ;) so we could call that the White wedding, white here symbolic of trust, honour and loveeeeeeeeeee. Sorry. It's the weekend - I go crazy on the weekends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroucia Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Ok, folksies :) I think we should go with the Black wedding! It plunged Sansa into hitherto unknown depths of despair, but still, she was able to use it as a cover to continue plotting her escape with Dontos; and Tyrion could not see beneath her despair to glean that she was really plotting something something. Black can also symbolise the hatred Sanas feels for Cersei. Also, her acceptance of Sandor's white cloak could be considered as a wedding of sorts ;) so we could call that the White wedding, white here symbolic of trust, honour and loveeeeeeeeeee. Sorry. It's the weekend - I go crazy on the weekends.Personally, I prefer the mummer’s wedding for Sansa and Tyrion’s… But I won’t argue and go happily with the majority.I do LOVE the white wedding for Sansa and the Hound’s though!!! Such a good idea Brashcandy!!! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 Thank you Maroucia, dahling :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 And on that note :uhoh: let's get back on topic and on chapter!I have a question on Tyrion's assertion that his wife doesn't need more songs. Do you guys and gals agree with what he said? Is this evidence of him not understanding Sansa, or what could have actually brought some comfort to her? Or is immersing herself in more songs and stories the last thing Sansa needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroucia Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 And on that note :uhoh: let's get back on topic and on chapter!I have a question on Tyrion's assertion that his wife doesn't need more songs. Do you guys and gals agree with what he said? Is this evidence of him not understanding Sansa, or what could have actually brought some comfort to her? Or is immersing herself in more songs and stories the last thing Sansa needed?Hard to say, I’m not sure Sansa have that much illusions right now, she might not enjoy her songs as she used to. They could seem really bitter now that she knows more about how the world runs. Especially in her situation, married to a disfigured dwarf as she is.Now, I don’t now if Tyrion meant that as if he knew Sansa would not like those songs as she did in her past, or if he just wants her to loose her dreams and be happy with what she has (him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Slightly off topic, but do you guys think that if Cercei had never got her future predicted by Maggy the Frog and learned about how she would die strangled by the Volonqar, things would have been different between her and Tyrion? I don’t remember exactly how old Cercei was at the time, but she was really young, something like nine or ten. Tyrion was just a baby and she had no reasons to hate him. It all came from the suspicion she had toward him after that. Without that meeting, they might have been really good friends (hard to imagine though).Cersei was 10. It was at the tournament at Casterly Rock held in honor of the king and Rhaegar coming to visit, and the grand announcement at the end of the tournament was supposd to be the betrothal of Rhaegar and Cersei. Think of any fair you've been to, there would be all kinds of people selling their wares. Cersei went to see Maggy the Frog expecting to get confirmation of the betrothal. Cersei was already tormenting her little brother. There have been other comments about how much she and Tywin were alike, and Tywin loathed Tyrion for "killing" his beloved wife. There seems to be no doubt that Tywin loved Joanna deeply. We also know since the age of 6 or 7, according to Cersei's POV, Tywin had been preparing her for marriage to Rhaegar, something he told her had to be kept secret between them. That seems like even Joanna did not know of Tywin's plans (because Aerys had tried to assault Joanna even on their wedding night, so she might not like Targs). I see the attitude Cersei has towards Tyrion as a reflection of Tywin's attitude, because of the closeness that developed between Cersei and Tywin over the secret betrothal plan from the age of "6 or 7". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 And on that note :uhoh: let's get back on topic and on chapter!I have a question on Tyrion's assertion that his wife doesn't need more songs. Do you guys and gals agree with what he said? Is this evidence of him not understanding Sansa, or what could have actually brought some comfort to her? Or is immersing herself in more songs and stories the last thing Sansa needed?I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Tyrion has no concept of Sansa as a person at all. For a clever man, he is incredibly stupid when it comes to her. In reality (which if think is highlighted in the next few chapters) he was more immature than her in the relationship and was constantly trying to break through her courtesy armour to find Tysha 2.0. He never tried to really know Sansa as a person.In fact, although Tywin and Cersei weren't nice to him, there is little evidence that he was treated any differently than his Lannister siblings, apart from the Tysha incident. Also given Tywin's consistent policy that Tysha was a whore and his belief that no one could love his dwarf son, then the Tysha incident is not him breaking Tyrion, but teaching him a lessson, that any woman who likes him must be in it for the money, because that's what he believes. Other than that the treatment was not as bad as Randall tarly treats Sam.True Tyrion was denied "a gap year" and his father said he couldn't go off with his uncle Gerion, but it is clear he had affection from Gerion, Genna, and Jaime, and Kevan as well. Indeed when Jaime describes Joy Hill, it is as a lonely child. I think regardless of his dwarfism, he would have been a lonely child. Jaime and Cersei don't seem to have had many friends either.Sansa however has gone from a loving family where even the bastard brother is treated almost the same as them, to being an actually abused prisoner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 And on that note :uhoh: let's get back on topic and on chapter!I have a question on Tyrion's assertion that his wife doesn't need more songs. Do you guys and gals agree with what he said? Is this evidence of him not understanding Sansa, or what could have actually brought some comfort to her? Or is immersing herself in more songs and stories the last thing Sansa needed?I think that comment reflects your analysis of Tyrion not realizing how much Sansa has matured. He still only sees a little girl who believes in knights in shining armour. Think of Cersei's comments to her while waiting for the battle to end, about how she should wait for the knights from her songs to come and rescue her. He thinks growing up means setting aside the songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgona Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Tyrion and Sansa again together: I hope no, but if it is they are the only two that could bring a peace between the 2 families. But I really hope this won´t happen cause they are not happy together.Tyrion telling no more songs needs Sansa: well again the importance of songs! They are bards, they are songs, one day you will song for me, the title of the book is a song of ice and fire. Songs are important. And I really hope that Sansa will want more songs (yet after Marillion). But here I think that is a way of telling that Tyrion´s still seing Sansa as a naïve person. Not in the reality of the world. And that it is a show that Sansa is doing a great job foolish everybody (even smart people) cause she sees more things and she is representing a paper just to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgona Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 How sad will be the world without music and without songs (tails, stories, ...).About the name of the wedding:the Unconcluded Wedding?The Farce Wedding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yvonesan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Ok, folksies :) I think we should go with the Black wedding! It plunged Sansa into hitherto unknown depths of despair, but still, she was able to use it as a cover to continue plotting her escape with Dontos; and Tyrion could not see beneath her despair to glean that she was really plotting something something. Black can also symbolise the hatred Sanas feels for Cersei. Also, her acceptance of Sandor's white cloak could be considered as a wedding of sorts ;) so we could call that the White wedding, white here symbolic of trust, honour and loveeeeeeeeeee. Sorry. It's the weekend - I go crazy on the weekends.Not the Black Wedding. The thing is... GRRM has mentioned the deliberate use of colours to turn assumptions on their heads. For example, the Night's Watch wear black (a colour usually considered to portray something evil or scary). Despite the fact that they're mostly made up of men that are unwanted in society, they guard the Wall and help protect everyone in Westeros from the dangers north of it. And white, a colour associated with being pure, clean and good is used for the Kingsguard cloaks. The Kingsguard are skilled warriors whose duty is to protect the King on the Iron Throne so white should be a good colour to represent their purpose. Yet, we learn that the Kingsguard are mostly corrupt. (Aside: thank goodness Sandor Clegane left it!) This was deliberate on GRRM's part. So it makes it difficult for me to accept black to represent Sansa's marriage to Tyrion because GRRM knows reality is more complicated than black = bad. And there's really no good in the instigation of this marriage. /going all serious about colours. You can ignore me of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroucia Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Tyrion has no concept of Sansa as a person at all. For a clever man, he is incredibly stupid when it comes to her. In reality (which if think is highlighted in the next few chapters) he was more immature than her in the relationship and was constantly trying to break through her courtesy armour to find Tysha 2.0. He never tried to really know Sansa as a person.Tyrion might be a bitter young man, but he definitely still has illusions regarding women (Shae anyone?). He’s able to project his dreams and hopes on Sansa who’s a beautiful young woman, as Tysha was, and apparently he thinks she could realise all his lost hopes.Sansa, on the other hand, could never have to same projections as he does: first, Tyrion is a Lannister and then he’s nothing of what she ever hopped in a man. Also, nothing good can happen to her by staying in this marriage with him, at least at this moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Ceriddwynn Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 a song of fire and ice....i know there's the dragon fire and the ice from the wall...summer and winter...but isn't fire and ice also for the forging of iron? or steel?? there is definitely enough fighting for this to also work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childofsummer Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 And on that note :uhoh: let's get back on topic and on chapter!I have a question on Tyrion's assertion that his wife doesn't need more songs. Do you guys and gals agree with what he said? Is this evidence of him not understanding Sansa, or what could have actually brought some comfort to her? Or is immersing herself in more songs and stories the last thing Sansa needed?I think he was trying not to invite comparison between Sansa's situation and the songs/knights she loves, while completely misunderstanding the importance of idealism in Sansa's character. Tyrion's "rational thinker" mind probably views songs and tales as useless fluff that distract from dealing with the issues at hand, rather than as forms of art with intrinsic value. Thus, he thinks that Sansa's songs are a waste of time, never seeing or wanting to see why they are important or how they can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childofsummer Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 How about "the annulment-to-be?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgona Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Tyrion is a great reader, but he doesn´t like really bards and their songs. He see them dangerous (example the bard of Shae). He may thinks that people can be manipulate thru songs (that also is a truth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Tyrion and Sansa again together: I hope no, but if it is they are the only two that could bring a peace between the 2 families. But I really hope this won´t happen cause they are not happy together.Tyrion telling no more songs needs Sansa: well again the importance of songs! They are bards, they are songs, one day you will song for me, the title of the book is a song of ice and fire. Songs are important. And I really hope that Sansa will want more songs (yet after Marillion). But here I think that is a way of telling that Tyrion´s still seing Sansa as a naïve person. Not in the reality of the world. And that it is a show that Sansa is doing a great job foolish everybody (even smart people) cause she sees more things and she is representing a paper just to survive.That is so perceptive Bgona - Tyrion thinking Sansa needs no more songs, Sandor wanting a song. ASOIAF. Again, all the foreshadowing signs seems to indicate SanSan.Yet.......as I do my catch up reading and keep seeing no Starks and Lannisters, damn Jaime and Sansa comes up again for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yvonesan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 How about "the annulment-to-be?"One can only hope. No point in staying married unless GRRM wants politics to preside over love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroucia Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Even though Tyrion thinks of himself as a down to earth man, he is not one as much as he would pretend, especially on regards of his relationship with Sansa and all women in general. He says he’s above all those little songs, but is he really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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