From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[Maroucia]

Was anyone else peeved that Tyrion saw fit to let Shae know he was getting married, but consented to having a 12 yr old dragged to her wedding? On that basis alone Sansa should have spit in his face when he started talking about the bedding.

And I'm still intrigued by her thoughts that Tyrion was as frightened as she was but this only causing her to pity him and be even more distant.

Finally, Tyrion's penis: beauty in the eye of the beholder situation I guess?

Any penis you're not interested in is going to be traumatic, especially on a first time.

And, on having pity of Tyrion and finding that even more unappealing, I think our girl likes men that can bring her a sense of security, so a scared man is not going to be anything she's looking for…

[brashcandy]

I always imagined Tysha and Tyrion's first time as them fumbling in the dark until things fit in place... Yes, my mind is an interesting place. ^_^

This is the thread for you then :P But as far as I remember TyTy had quite an open, in the daylight kind of romance.

[brashcandy]

Any penis you’re not interested in is going to be traumatic, especially on a first time.

And, on having pity of Tyrion and finding that even more unappealing, I think our girl likes men that can bring her a sense of security, so a scarred man is not going to be anything she’s looking for…

interesting typo there :) I'll assume you meant scared.

[Fragile Bird]

interesting typo there :) I'll assume you meant scared.

LOL good catch!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Tyrion going on about being the knight of flowers in the dark could be foreshadowing of another....encounter....that sansa does get caught dreaming about ;)

funny to think he could be making it easier for her at a later date....with another man...ooh la la

off topic but i wonder what she would think if she knew flower power loras was quite convinced she killed joffrey and already had her convicted in his pretty curly head

[Maroucia]

interesting typo there :) I'll assume you meant scared.

Yeah, that's what I meant, of course, because she does like scarred men. :leer:

I would edit that, but it's not working right now.

(ok, editing is done now! Yeah!)

[brashcandy]

On the subject of pitying Tyrion, I think it's important because Sansa is often accused of somehow not "getting" Tyrion or not appreciating that he was nicer than his other family members, and was just as daunted by the marriage as she was. Well her observation that night pretty much demolishes that argument. She understands that Tyrion is frightened and she even understands that he's not the worse person ever, but she still doesn't want him. Sansa is not being immature over this situation at all, it's just that her desire isn't going to be sparked simply because she can recognize another person's distress.

[Maroucia]

On the subject of pitying Tyrion, I think it's important because Sansa is often accused of somehow not "getting" Tyrion or not appreciating that he was nicer than his other family members, and was just as daunted by the marriage as she was. Well her observation that night pretty much demolishes that argument. She understands that Tyrion is frightened and she even understands that he's not the worse person ever, but she still doesn't want him. Sansa is not being immature over this situation at all, it's just that her desire isn't going to be sparked simply because she can recognize another person's distress.

That surely doesn’t have anything to do with desiring someone. Sansa is full of mercy and compassion, but she did more then her part on giving compassion to her family’s enemies. She may understand him and pity him, but her limits have been more then overloaded on that ground.

And anyway, compassion/pity does not equal desire (not at all).

[brashcandy]

That surely doesn’t have anything to do with desiring someone. Sansa is full of mercy and compassion, but she did more then her part on giving compassion to her family’s enemies. She may understand him and pity him, but her limits have been more then overloaded on that ground.

And anyway, compassion/pity does not equal desire (not at all).

Exactly. In Sansa's case desiring someone seems to come from a mixture of admiration for their martial, knightly skills, their physical appearance - tall and strong, and a certain je ne sais quoi that she's too young to actually define as yet.

[brashcandy]

Oooh I can't remember if anyone mentioned this but I meant to highlight it in my review as another hint of Tyrion as a giant clue. When Sansa is dancing with Garlan at her wedding the Black wedding:

"Your eyes give the lie to your tongue." Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. "My lady I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly ... but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think."

[Auralie Stone]

How about "the motley wedding"? Fools wear motley in Westeros, and everyone at that wedding was either fooled, being made a fool, or laughing at the fools. Motley can mean ragtag and patched together, which this wedding certainly was. Most importantly, motley can also mean "an incongruous pairing", which Tyrion and Sansa (and on a larger level, Houses Lannister and Stark) definitely are!

[1234567]

Oooh I can't remember if anyone mentioned this but I meant to highlight it in my review as another hint of Tyrion as a giant clue. When Sansa is dancing with Garlan at her wedding the Black wedding:

Nice catch Brash. We have had a lot of foreshadowing with both Sandor and Tyrion. With Tyrion it could go either way: romantic or death. Indeed the old trope about saying "never" and then of course the opposite being true came up in the last chapter. In terms of romantic foreshadowing, in AGOT, Sansa does say she'll

"I’ll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he’ll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion."

And Arya says not if Joff's the father. Then there is Cersei's comment

You may never love the king, but you’ll love his children.”

Then at the end of ADWD Tyrion does dress up in a motley assortment of armour. There are also a couple of quotes in the Vale chapters that echo the never one, but we should look at them during those chapter readings.

Now in a typical fantasy novel, Sansa saying "never" on her wedding night should lead of course to true love with that very person, however this is not a typical fantasy novel series. The line from Cersei about loving the children of a man she does not like and the reference to golden haired sons would also seem to be foreshadowing of a marriage to Tyrion, especially as there has been foreshadowing that he will end up King.

However it could also refer to Aegon who has golden hair (whether he be Blackfyre or Targ). This would also tie in with Tyrion's meeting with Aegon where he notes that any girl would fall for him: again this could either be foreshadowing that Sansa does or doesn't fall for him. Also Sansa dreamt of having sons who looked like her dead brother and of course they were all red heads. She also dreamt of having a daughter who looked like Arya, which is possible foreshadowing of one child being fathered by Sandor Clegane. Indeed the build up foreshadowing between Sandor and Sansa is substantial.

Going back to the idea of Tyrion as the giant. While there seems to be huge foreshadowing that it will be Littlefinger, there is mounting evidence, as your quote showed Brash, that it could be Tyrion instead. From AGOT, we have Maester Aemon calling him a giant and then the line from ACOK by Tyrion himself that

“If Littlefinger is dead, then I’m a giant.”

Then of course there is the "giant of a Lannister line" which has been said over and over again. Tyrion also tells Sansa that he is only a little lion won't "savage" her which echos the "savage giant" prophecy (if that hasn't already happened with the Snow castle and Sweetrobin). Also Sansa seems to be progressing to being on the Vale side as it were, while Tyrion's Clansmen are raping and killing the smallfolk of the Vale, with the weapons he gave them. This would put the two characters at odds with each other when they return. The fact that the last chapter highlights that Tyrion was tacitly going along with the killing of Robb Stark, seems only to be a natural barrier and further cause for antagonism between them.

As for a name for the wedding, I think Sansa said it best herself: Mockery of a Marriage. ;)

[bgona]

Sansa is related to men that seems giant/small.

Tyrion is referred several times as a giant (Lord Mormont at the Wall seems that they were visited by a giant, Ser Garlan at the wedding, Tyrion as a kind of mockery of himself).

Petyr Baelish is named Littlefinger cause he is small but he has the shield of the Titan.

Sandor Clegane is huge, really tall but inside he feels as a small, sometimes as a boy of 6 years, another at the same level of a dog.

[bgona]

Again is the difference between Sandor vs Tyrion or LF. Sandor seems fiercely, but inner he has that conflicte that she seems to accept.

While Tyrion or LF seems less threatening while they are really more dangerous, also with inside conflicts but at this moment Sansa doesn´t seem to accept.

[brashcandy]

How about "the motley wedding"? Fools wear motley in Westeros, and everyone at that wedding was either fooled, being made a fool, or laughing at the fools. Motley can mean ragtag and patched together, which this wedding certainly was. Most importantly, motley can also mean "an incongruous pairing", which Tyrion and Sansa (and on a larger level, Houses Lannister and Stark) definitely are!

I really like this! :)

Concerning Tyrion as the giant and future king that Sansa may (shudder) have children with, there's that very early foreshadowing in Jon chapter of AGOT:

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

[Lyanna Stark]

Now in a typical fantasy novel, Sansa saying "never" on her wedding night should lead of course to true love with that very person, however this is not a typical fantasy novel series. The line from Cersei about loving the children of a man she does not like and the reference to golden haired sons would also seem to be foreshadowing of a marriage to Tyrion, especially as there has been foreshadowing that he will end up King.

I always took the line from Cersei to be her blurting out subconsciously who the real father or her children is. She does something similar in AFfC when she blurts out Tommen takes after his father regarding skills at tournaments, yet Robert has not won any tournaments. (I think Marg or the QoT catches her out, which is a really snicker inducing moment. Come on Cersei, sort yourself out!)

All the Baratheon children are dark, but hers are golden haired. So the "golden haired sons" at least at this stage of the story seem strongly to hint at Cersei's own secret. The woman just can't stop blurting out her most cherished secret.

I am also doubtful whether a blond man and a darker, auburn haired woman would get golden haired children. It is far more likely they'd favour the Tully looks, or even the latent Stark looks in Sansa (unless we are seeing some weirdness as with the Targ "silver hair" actually not being recessive like in RL).

Regarding Tyrion as future king and Sansa as future queen, I have to say that I don't buy it. Not with both Dany and Jon alive (I still want Aegon to be real, sue me :( but I am starting to lean towards that he is a Blackfyre despite it all. ) and as we have seen time and time again: the rift between their houses is too large. For the moment, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion keeps her safe from getting married off again, so it works as a sort of plot armour from other marriages, if you wish :P But I am sure our lovely Petyr will be working hard on getting it annulled aaaany time soon. If nothing else, Sansa can ensure the marriage was never consummated, and Tyrion's kinslayer crime will probably help in getting it annulled too.

Sansa's diplomatic skills will come in handier when it comes to restructure and rebuild the north.

Tyrion on the other hand seems to be heading for an advisory position for Dany, which I think increases her chances of succeeding as Queen in Westeros by about 400%. What would be amusing if it ends up with Dany/Jon as Queen/King, Tyrion as Hand, Jamie as Commander of the Kingsguard (with Brienne at his side in another white cloak) and Sansa as taking up Littlefinger's position (Master of Coins and manipulation/information) and our dear old Hound could become Master at Arms of KL (since poor Santagar got done for in the riot). But I doubt Sansa would be as depraved as LF so it's probably a moot point. :P

aaand that sort of ran away with me, but anyway, no I can't see Sansa and Tyrion married at the end of the series. They just seem to have such different fates lined up. I'd actually rather see Tyrion with Dany than with Sansa (and I think that would be weird too: why would Dany take a scarred, kinslaying dwarf for a husband?)

[Silverin]

I always took the line from Cersei to be her blurting out subconsciously who the real father or her children is. She does something similar in AFfC when she blurts out Tommen takes after his father regarding skills at tournaments, yet Robert has not won any tournaments.

All the Baratheon children are dark, but hers are golden haired. So the "golden haired sons" at least in this stage of the story seem strongly to hint at Cersei's own secret. The woman just can't stop blurting out her most cherished secret.

I am also doubtful whether a blond man and a darker, auburn haired woman would get golden haired children. It is far more likely they'd favour the Tully looks, or even the latent Stark looks in Sansa (unless we are seeing some weirdness as with the Targ "silver hair" actually not being recessive like in RL).

The only golden haired Lannister husband I aprove is Tommen. No one else is worthy among them to Sansa (and I don't wish them for anyone else either. Maybe if Jaime proves that he really really is worthy of Brienne I am fine with that pairing, but so far he didn't.). Though for that Margarey either has to die, or the marriage has to be annueled, and Tommen has to stay alive. So that has a slim chance.

But pssssst, if she really wants blond children, weren't Pod blond (my OTP)? I always pictured him blond in my mind for some reason, but then I saw that he has brown hair on pictures.

Well it is Ok. I actually prefer brown hair.

But well then Harry the Heir is blond as well, if I remember correctly (someone said that). So she can have blond children from him as well.

Just don't scare me with any forshadowing that she will have any physical contact with tyrion, exept if it is about pushing him out off the Moon Door.

[Lyanna Stark]

But well then Harry the Heir is blond as well, if I remember correctly (someone said that). So she can have blond children from him as well.

Just don't scare me with any forshadowing that she will have any physical contact with tyrion, exept if it is about pushing him out off the Moon Door.

I seem to remember Harry the Heir being sandy haired. Sansa doesn't view him all too favourably though since her first impression of him came from Myranda Royce and she wished he got the pox. :lol: Plus apparently he already had two bastards on the way, which makes me think "Robert Baratheon 2.0" and that he might try and have a "test run" with Sansa before the wedding.

It will be interesting to see how Sansa handles trying to woo Harry and what her views on him are going to be. As I have a feeling Sansa will end up making a lot of her own decisions, I doubt Harry will last her as a husband. Also, I think after the Tyrion wedding debacle, Sansa will balk at another wedding to someone she really loathes, so lets hope Harry is a real shitbag. :lol:

I also really, really hope Brienne and Jamie will somehow manage to get to her which would be super amazing. (Jamie isn't dead, nooooo he can't be! Ever!)

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Well as far as foreshadowing....Tyrion and Tywin made it a point (or GRRM did) to state that the high septon or council of faith can annul the marriage.

[Cerys]

Well as far as foreshadowing....Tyrion and Tywin made it a point (or GRRM did) to state that the high septon or council of faith can annul the marriage.

This is the biggest problem with Sansa's marriage.

If she ask high septon or call a council she will be revealed as Sansa Lannister. And Sansa Lannister is accused to help Tyrion murder the 1) king who has quite a good claim and he acually gain power in the war, 2) 12 year boy 3) brother of Tommen, who pleased Faith.