From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[brashcandy]

What about the sharp lesson that Tyrion was promising Joffrey?

Did he keep his promise?

I have read in another thread a crackpot theory about Tywin being to one who planned Joffey’s murder. I don’t believe it since we really have no proofs at all going this way, but I do like the idea. I’m not sure Tywin would kill a family member though.

Yeah, I don't think Tywin ever got a chance to apply that sharp lesson, and he still felt that Joffrey might grow out of his behaviour.

[Raksha the Demon]

Snippets from BrashCandy's analyses:

ASOS - Tyrion VI

Summary

The chapter opens with Tyrion and Sansa having dinner together. It is an awkward meal, with both of them making banal comments on the state of the food:

Tyrion’s mood has darkened since the arrival of Oberyn Martell and the ensuing conflict with the Tyrells. We learn that a fight broke out in Flea’s Bottom leaving casualties on both sides and that Lady Olenna has called Ellaria Sand “the serpent’s whore.”

In order to make Sansa feel better about the meal, Tyrion calls on Podrick to fill his plate with even more peas, but rues:

After the supper ends, Sansa requests leave to be able to visit the godswood, and Tyrion entertains the idea of joining her, even though he cannot understand this kind of religious faithfulness. Sansa immediately objects to this thought however, telling Tyrion that he would find it boring. He agrees with her, and thinks that she knows him better than he thought.

ASOS – Tyrion VII

We learn that after Sansa finds out about Robb’s and her mother’s death she does not break down in front of Tyrion, but waits until she is alone to vent her grief.

Rereading these bits from ASOS; I was chuckling at how masterfully 13-year-old Sansa is playing one of the smartest, most perceptive men in Westeros. Tyrion has no clue that Sansa is doing anything else but praying in the Godswood; and he thinks that she knows him well when she talks him out of accompanying her because he would find it boring.

Tyrion also dismisses his child bride as a heedless teenager who can't keep her mouth shut, while she's demonstrating iron self-control every moment she's with him, not telling him how much she hates and fears his family, refusing to vent her sorrow and pain over Catelyn and Robb's death in front of him. Sheesh!

If Sansa can survive the next few years, I think she could become quite a powerful player of the Game of Thrones herself; just using her observational skills, courtesy armor, that extreme self-control, and accentuating her considerable charm. She doesn't even need to bat her big blue eyes at Tyrion and he's buying her act, think of what she'll be able to do when she learns when and how to really turn on the charm. That doesn't mean I want her to become Cersei v. II, more like a kinder, gentler Cersei, and still very much Sansa, only stronger.

I am also very sad for Sansa; she is so alone now; she does not even dare let anyone share her grief or comfort what must be a devastating double-blow for her, her mother and brother horribly murdered.

[brashcandy]

Yes, and all this underscores what a travesty it was for poor Sansa to be trapped in a loveless marriage to a Lannister. In moments like these, you need someone you can trust and lean on for comfort and understanding. Tyrion would like to provide it, but even he knows that it would be impossible. Sansa needed a true friend at this time, and I suppose Dontos might have tried to make her feel better in his bumbling way, but essentially, she was all alone to deal with what must have been immense sorrow and grief.

[voodooqueen126]

On Baelish and Sansa ending up together... I think that would be terrible, like the princess from the story marrying the ogre (not the funny shrek characters but horrible man eating things) rather than slaying the ogre (admittedly in the traditional fairystory the knight slays the ogre) and marrying the knight...

Or Lolita choosing Humbert at the end.

From the end after Humbert sees Lolita in poverty with Richard Shiller and she chooses unsophisticated and deaf Shiller over sophisticated and cultured Humbert.

"Once when Avis's father had honked outside to signal papa had come to take his pet home, I felt obliged to invite him into the parlor, and he sat down for a minute, and while we conversed, Avis, a heavy, unattractive, affectionate child, drew up to him and eventually perched plumply on his knee. Now, I do not remember if I have mentioned that Lolita always had an absolutely enchanting smile for strangers, a tender furry slitting of the eyes, a dreamy sweet radiance of all her features which did not mean a thing of course but was so beautiful,* so endearing that one found it hard to reduce such sweetness to but a magic gene lighting up her face in atavistic token of some ancient rite of welcome-hospitable prostitution, the coarse reader may say. Well, there she stood while Mr Boyd twirled his hat and talked, and-yes, look how stupid of me, I have left out the main characteristic of the famous Lolita smile, namely: while the tender, nectared, dimpled brightness played, it was never directed at the stranger in the room but hung in its own remote flowered void, so to speak, or wandered with myopic softness over chance objects--and this is what was happening now: while fat Avis clung to her father's neck and ear while, with a casual arm, the man enveloped his lumpy and large offspring, I saw Lolita's smile lose all its light and become a frozen little shadow of itself, and the fruit knife slipped off the table and struck her with its silver handle and a freak blow on the ankle which made her gasp, and crouch head forward, and then, jumping on one leg, her face awful with the preparatory grimace which children hold till the tears gush, she was gone--to be followed at once and consoled in the kitchen by Avis, who had such a wonderful fat pink dad, and a home, and two grinning dogs, and Lolita had nothing...

(then Lolita asks him where her mother is buried and accuses him of murder and then runs off to her bedroom).

I did not rush up to her room with cries. I always preferred the mental hygiene of noninterference. Now, squirming and pleading with my own memory, I recall that on this and similar occassions, it was always my habit and method to ignore Lolita's states of mind while comforting my own base self. When my mother, in a livid wet dress, under the tumbling mist (so I vividly imagined her), had run panting ecstatically up that ridge above Moulinet to be felled there by a thunderbolt, I as but an infant, and in retrospect of yearnings of the accepted kind could I ever graft upon any moment of my youth, no matter how savagely psychotherapists heckled me in my later periods of depression. But I admit that a man of my power of imagination cannot plead personal ignorance of universal emotions. I may also have relied too much on the abnormally chill relations between Charlotte and her daughter. But the awful point of the whole argument is this. It had become gradually clear to my conventional Lolita during our singular and bestial cohabitation that even the most miserable of family lives was better than the parody of incest, which, in the long run, was the best I could offer the waif.

*Now towards the end of the story Humbert mentions her smile!

[Fragile Bird]

Now that you mention Tyrion being cold, I took a look at the surrounding chapters to see what was happening.

Tyrion's (still) beloved brother has lost his hand and is facing a bear in a pit without a weapon.

Starks are being slaughtered at the Twins. Tywin speaks of balancing the killing of a dozen people versus thousands dying. But in fact, hundreds if not thousands died at the Twins. The Freys slaughtered almost everyone who came to the wedding.

ETA: Did Tywin really think only a dozen would die? Did he instruct the Freys only to kill the senior Stark leaders, and make the rest bend their knees? We know they expected Cat to survive. Was Tywin being willfully blind? He says he never expected Clegane to rape and murder Rhaenys, or Ser Amory to kill Elia. Shouldn't he know better at this point in his life? Damn those Lannisters take slaughter without blinking an eye. Thank you again, Sansa, for not kneeling for Tyrion.

The hound and Arya have had a terrible confrontation.

Jon has just made it back to the wall, badly injured and worried sick about an attack to come.

Stannis has heard the news of the RW and is trying to undermine the support of the Lannisters.

Sam and Gilly have been rescued by Coldhands. Sam has a future role to play, IMHO.

I said in a previous post I didn't hate Tyrion yet, that it was coming. I'm not there yet, but the scales are tipping.

No wonder Tyrion feels a chill. Someone is walking across Lannister graves. And all the Lannisters can see is that they are winning the war. Instead the seeds are being sown for their downfall. The Freys are going to be slaughtered. Roose Bolton is going to pay. Stannis will get a second wind at the Wall. Arya and the Hound continue to their confrontation with the three Clegane men, ending in their slaughter and the road to redemption for Sandor. A road we all think will end up either in the rescue of Sansa or confrontation with Cersei's champion, or both. And God only knows what the FM and Arya mean for the Lannisters. Joffrey will soon die.

Winter is coming indeed.

[Lyanna Stark]

A couple of things regarding this chapter.

* While Tyrion is not making any efforts to reach out to Sansa, I think it has a couple of reason and most of them are not that he's a heartless arsehole. Firstly, he points out that every time he looks at her, he is reminded what he is. He knows very well that to her, he is a monster. Not because he is a dwarf, but because he is a Lannister. Tyrion knows he should feel loyal to his own house and work for its success, yet in his being placed face to face with Sansa in a marriage, he is constantly reminded that this in fact makes him the Bad Guy. Tyrion is only human in that he doesn't like this, and tries as much as he can to distance himself from it.

* There is a technical understanding of what Sansa goes through, but as he cannot connect with her, he also cannot show her any empathy. I think some part of him would have liked to, but no good will in the world could bridge that gap. It feels unfair to only blame Tyrion for it. In many ways, he was as trapped as Sansa (although her situation is of course more perilous and even more depressing). If nothing else, when he asks Tywin when he thinks Sansa is at her most fertile, before or after he tells her of her mother's and brother's death, I always felt that was Tyrion's way of standing up for her, in the small way he could.

* Regarding the husband as protector of the wife in Westeros, we again get confirmation this is a sham marriage as Tyrion cannot provide this service, and he knows this himself.

As for Sansa:

* People claim she is stupid and vapid, yet here she effortlessly plays Tyrion by basically...telling him what he wants to hear about the Godswood. "You'd find it boring". Hahahah. Strangely, this is advice given to her by both the Hound and LF. I actually think a lot of readers get their ASOS haracter description of Sansa from Tyrion and take his words at face value. He finds her overly pious, vapid and pretty dumb. Yet as we see, the little bird ends up flying off after she shit on the imp's head (to borrow the Hound's line :lol: )

* It's further driven home how friendless Sansa is in KL during this time. With the Tyrells ignoring her and the Hound gone, she only speaks to Dontos, and Tyrion doesn't know this.

* At some point during the Tyrion chapters in ACOK, Sansa speaks in her sleep and Tyrion thinks he hears her say someone's name. I wonder who it is she is calling to? It always irks me Tyrion doesn't find out, but he just doesn't seem to bother enough to find out. It will be interesting to see when he realises how he has underestimated her.

Tyrion also dismisses his child bride as a heedless teenager who can't keep her mouth shut, while she's demonstrating iron self-control every moment she's with him, not telling him how much she hates and fears his family, refusing to vent her sorrow and pain over Catelyn and Robb's death in front of him. Sheesh!

Yes, this should really tell Tyrion more. Sansa's behaviour and self control is so totally unlike "normal" teenager girl behaviour he really should have considered it more, but he doesn't. Maybe he is putting it down to a northern thing or something, but you really have to wonder how he can be so wilfully blind here. I guess maybe Tyrion doesn't have a lot of experience with teenager girls, or he would have known Sansa in ACOK is nowhere near the default.

It is really scary how much Sansa internalises. From the end of AGOT to the end of AFfC, she has done very little but keep things to herself. She's had some honest and open conversations with Sandor and LF, but apart from that she's really like a closed book, even to LF. I wonder what it will be like when she eventually has enough of it and what will cause it?

[bgona]

About religions: I don´t know but I found connotations with some of our religions.

The Old Gods is an animist religion as celtic religions.

The Seven Gods: it reminds me of Catholic religion (all the gods are one, but show different faces, as the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit). In catholic religion the important number is 3, while in Jewish is 7. The Sept as churchs,...

R´llor reminds me of Jewish religion, with the promise that the son of God will be coming, the sword of Justice and Moises flaming bramble where he can hear the voice of God.

The Drowned God mostly reminds me to Odin and viking gods.

Anyway, I remember read in the books something as all the Gods are the same but with different facets. And as Voodoooqueen says, the most important is that made characters think about their behaviour.

[bgona]

Tyrion is a Lannister, a lion. And sometimes they understimate the enemy. Yes, they are intelligents, powerfuls, but they base their control at power, merciless many times, and they don´t get to know how to remove the seeds of greif that themselves had plant.

[Villemo]

About religions: I don´t know but I found connotations with some of our religions.

The Old Gods is an animist religion as celtic religions.

The Seven Gods: it reminds me of Catholic religion (all the gods are one, but show different faces, as the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit). In catholic religion the important number is 3, while in Jewish is 7. The Sept as churchs,...

R´llor reminds me of Jewish religion, with the promise that the son of God will be coming, the sword of Justice and Moises flaming bramble where he can hear the voice of God.

The Drowned God mostly reminds me to Odin and viking gods.

the Seven Gods are similar to medieval idea of the saints, they have their 'specializations' ;)

R'llor and his priests- I have the impression, that this is sort of The Inquisition (fire that redeems and purifies)

[voodooqueen126]

Yeah, I don't think Tywin ever got a chance to apply that sharp lesson, and he still felt that Joffrey might grow out of his behaviour.

Now that you mention Tyrion being cold, I took a look at the surrounding chapters to see what was happening.

Tyrion's (still) beloved brother has lost his hand and is facing a bear in a pit without a weapon.

Starks are being slaughtered at the Twins. Tywin speaks of balancing the killing of a dozen people versus thousands dying. But in fact, hundreds if not thousands died at the Twins. The Freys slaughtered almost everyone who came to the wedding.

ETA: Did Tywin really think only a dozen would die? Did he instruct the Freys only to kill the senior Stark leaders, and make the rest bend their knees? We know they expected Cat to survive. Was Tywin being willfully blind? He says he never expected Clegane to rape and murder Rhaenys, or Ser Amory to kill Elia. Shouldn't he know better at this point in his life? Damn those Lannisters take slaughter without blinking an eye. Thank you again, Sansa, for not kneeling for Tyrion.

I think that Tywin is ultimately blind, without empathy, for this reason he doesn't really understand why being cruel or horrid to people will hurt him.

For this reason I hate all theories that Tywin poisoned Joffrey. Because whilst Tywin doesn't like Joffrey's emotional outbursts, he can't really see what is wrong with Joffrey's cruelty.

From Azar Nafisi Reading Lolita in Tehran (On her chapter on Henry James): "Dr Sloper commits the most unforgivable crime in fiction-blindness. Pity is the password, says the poet John Shade in Nabokov's Pale Fire. This respect for others, empathy, lies at the heart of the novel. It is the quality that links Austen to Flaubert and James to Nabokov and Bellow. This, I believe, is how the villain in modern fiction is born: a creature without compassion, without empathy. The personalized version of good and evil usurps and individualizes the more archetypal concepts, such as courage or heroism, that shaped the epic or romance. A hero beomes one who safeguards his or her individual integrity at almost any cost."

[Queen of Winter]

Greetings all!

I've been lurking and reading this thread in its many incarnations for some time now. Just wanted to say I've been enjoying everyone's viewpoints immensely, and there have been some extremely good analogies that have been brought up! :)

I've been having a lot of problems with board errors so I just wanted to get this posted quickly! I hope to be joining in this conversation and adding my own thoughts as well.

[Towel]

I thought there was a queen of winter. And also i think that there will probably be errors until the second season is over.

And also, WELCOME!

[Queen of Winter]

I thought there was a queen of winter. And also i think that there will probably be errors until the second season is over.

And also, WELCOME!

I believe it'smentioned in the books that in early history of Westeros, the King(s) of the North were referred to as "The King of Winter", so I styled my name after that.

I think the board traffic is probably overloading the servers, hence the errors. But I'll try to post when I can!

Thank you for the welcome! :D

[Towel]

I meant another one on the board. and yes that's the gist of it.

and welcome again

[Fragile Bird]

@ Lyanna Stark

I was also annoyed last night as I did my re-read of the 2 chapters, when Tyrion didn't try to hear what Sansa was saying in her sleep. Surely married couples always pay attention to what their partner says in bed, because it's so revealing. Sansa doesn't have to be revealed to him, he already knows everything he needs to know! But he's too interested in going off to see Shae.

And I would remind you all, on the cusp of season 2 on HBO, that Shae and Sansa are much closer in age in the book than they are in the series. Shae is in her mid 20s in the series, and comes from some kind of at least merchant class family, if not higher. Such nonsense, but it makes the coming scenes between them on a more level playing field. I wonder if they will keep her infamous comment about Lollys and rape in the series, or if they will try to keep her more sympathetic.

[Avicella]

That makes two of us who are new then, Queen of Winter! I'm actually quite nervous adding to this thread because it's so well established and everyone leaves such insightful comments. Oh well, here goes:

Something that I thought in this first Tyrion chapter - an interesting one because Sansa is seen through wholly Lannister eyes (Tyrion, Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Kevan) - was that Tyrion's sometimes coldness and lack of understanding with his wife (at least as I see it) could perhaps stem from his annoyance over the way she has chosen to act. Sansa's response to her difficult circumstances is to withdraw into herself and become mechanical and robotic, which Tyrion finds very trying, as evidenced over their dinner together. Tyrion's entire life has been a trial - he's been humiliated, mocked, threatened and treated cruelly, like Sansa more recently has, yet he hasn't been defeated by it, something I think that he believes Sansa has. I think, though this might be a bold statement, that Tyrion would have more respect and genuine care for Sansa if she faced her difficulties in the same way he did.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their circumstances are identical, but I do believe that there are similarities and that Tyrion knows this and it affects how he views Sansa. Personally, I think Sansa behaves with dignity and grace and a strength that few in the series possess. It is a pity that in the chapter where we learn of Robb's death, Tyrion does not seem to be able to see Sansa for who she really is.

[Fragile Bird]

That makes two of us who are new then, Queen of Winter! I'm actually quite nervous adding to this thread because it's so well established and everyone leaves such insightful comments. Oh well, here goes:

Something that I thought in this first Tyrion chapter - an interesting one because Sansa is seen through wholly Lannister eyes (Tyrion, Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Kevan) - was that Tyrion's sometimes coldness and lack of understanding with his wife (at least as I see it) could perhaps stem from his annoyance over the way she has chosen to act. Sansa's response to her difficult circumstances is to withdraw into herself and become mechanical and robotic, which Tyrion finds very trying, as evidenced over their dinner together. Tyrion's entire life has been a trial - he's been humiliated, mocked, threatened and treated cruelly, like Sansa more recently has, yet he hasn't been defeated by it, something I think that he believes Sansa has. I think, though this might be a bold statement, that Tyrion would have more respect and genuine care for Sansa if she faced her difficulties in the same way he did.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their circumstances are identical, but I do believe that there are similarities and that Tyrion knows this and it affects how he views Sansa. Personally, I think Sansa behaves with dignity and grace and a strength that few in the series possess. It is a pity that in the chapter where we learn of Robb's death, Tyrion does not seem to be able to see Sansa for who she really is.

I agree he would - but his idea of her facing life head on is having sex with him and being a good wife who loves him. Tyrion, as has been repeatedly mocked by Cersei, is looking for love. For her to face her difficulties the way he does, with no family, no support, no power, would mean to become a Lannister. That is definitely not what she is going to do. Besides, she could only reveal a stronger side to him, become an ally of Tyrion, because to reveal herself to the world could get her killed, especially once she had a male child. Lol! Or get Tyrion killed if he produced a normal male child. Can you image what Tywin would do? Sansa might move up in the world in his eyes!

[Lyanna Stark]

Welcome QoW and Avicella. :)

Something that I thought in this first Tyrion chapter - an interesting one because Sansa is seen through wholly Lannister eyes (Tyrion, Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Kevan) - was that Tyrion's sometimes coldness and lack of understanding with his wife (at least as I see it) could perhaps stem from his annoyance over the way she has chosen to act. Sansa's response to her difficult circumstances is to withdraw into herself and become mechanical and robotic, which Tyrion finds very trying, as evidenced over their dinner together. Tyrion's entire life has been a trial - he's been humiliated, mocked, threatened and treated cruelly, like Sansa more recently has, yet he hasn't been defeated by it, something I think that he believes Sansa has. I think, though this might be a bold statement, that Tyrion would have more respect and genuine care for Sansa if she faced her difficulties in the same way he did.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their circumstances are identical, but I do believe that there are similarities and that Tyrion knows this and it affects how he views Sansa. Personally, I think Sansa behaves with dignity and grace and a strength that few in the series possess. It is a pity that in the chapter where we learn of Robb's death, Tyrion does not seem to be able to see Sansa for who she really is.

I think you are correct in that one of the reasons Tyrion just can't understand Sansa is that they are different personalities. I stated that Sansa tends to internalise, both because she was a bit like that before, but also because she really learnt the hard way with Joffrey that anything she says can and will be used against her in a brutal fashion. She was convinced Joffrey would spare Ned, but he doesn't, and later on he has her beaten if she shows the smallest bit of cheek.

Tyrion on the other hand has basically got by using his smart mouth, so yeah, miles apart.

It's also intersting to not, as you did, that these chapters are all viewing Sansa completely through Lannister eyes, and this shapes the readers view of her. Lots of people are complaining that Sansa is stupid, vapid and shallow, but what really goes on is that the Lannisters see her as such.

@ Lyanna Stark

I was also annoyed last night as I did my re-read of the 2 chapters, when Tyrion didn't try to hear what Sansa was saying in her sleep. Surely married couples always pay attention to what their partner says in bed, because it's so revealing. Sansa doesn't have to be revealed to him, he already knows everything he needs to know! But he's too interested in going off to see Shae.

Tywin's plot to place Shae with Tyrion seems to have served to blind him even more to what Sansa was up to, it seems. It's actually downright painful to read these chapters when you know what will happen later during Tyrion's trial and what Shae will say. What he should have done is spent more time trying to console his wife and less time trying to console himself with a whore, basically. But he wouldn't be Tyrion if he didn't. :)

Tbh, do we ever get Sansa's reaction to Tyrion's killing of Tywin and his subsequent exile? I can't remember that we do. Littlefinger must know, but he hasn't seen fit to tell her, I guess.

[Avicella]

I agree he would - but his idea of her facing life head on is having sex with him and being a good wife who loves him. Tyrion, as has been repeatedly mocked by Cersei, is looking for love. For her to face her difficulties the way he does, with no family, no support, no power, would mean to become a Lannister. That is definitely not what she is going to do. Besides, she could only reveal a stronger side to him, become an ally of Tyrion, because to reveal herself to the world could get her killed, especially once she had a male child. Lol! Or get Tyrion killed if he produced a normal male child. Can you image what Tywin would do? Sansa might move up in the world in his eyes!

I don't think I made myself clear because it sounds like I'm criticising Sansa for not being a good wife and not having sex with Tyrion, which sounds awful! What I meant was that Tyrion seems critical of her 'dutiful' and seemingly submissive behaviour - what he would prefer, I think, is a but more fire from her. He gets nothing at all from her because she's so withdrawn and where as Tyrion faces his critics, haters and those who mock him with a sharp tongue and quick wit, she seems to absorb it, which I don't think sits well with him. I don't think she would need to become a Lannister to face difficulties as he does (she doesn't need to face them as he does because she isn't him), but I acknowledge your point about her lacking the family, support and power. What is sad though is that in theory she has all those three, but she either doesn't know, cannot utilise it or is deliberately deprived from it.

But I love your suggestion for how she could move on up in the Lannister world. That's a guaranteed route to Tywin's and Cersei's affection! ...less so Jamie though.

[Avicella]

I should add that I don't expect Sansa to become an Arya at all, or vocalise her opposition. What I'm trying to get across is that I think Tyrion wants more...personality?... from her, rather than, as the Hounds so aptly put, the pretty little words that the Septas taught her.