Heresy 8

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I don't think it all that unusual that the great houses of Westeros acquired and possessed Valyrian steel blades prior to the Conquest. Valyrian steel was the best, and remains the best. As a comparable, consider how many folks in the series have had dragonbone bows, blade hilts, and other items?

I don't think it impossible or even unlikely that folks from Valyria traded, or died abroad w/ their weapons, which ultimately made their ways to the most powerful families of Westeros prior to the Conquest. They most likely made their way from Valyria to the Free Cities, to the Rhoyne, to the Andals, and ultimately to Westeros, long before the Conquest.

[lokisnow]

But that doesn't answer the question of why Aegon would settle for a lesser blade for his throne, if they had valyrian steel, he would want that yielded, not your everyday castle forged blade.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

If I might offer a supposition ....The Iron Throne is wrought of the swords of the vanquished.... I took that to mean those who were killed. If Tohrren knelt and pledged fealty, it would seem that Aegon thought he'd not salt the wounded pride by demanding his sword... the same went for other houses that knelt. I imagine that if any lords perished on the burning field and had Valyrian blades, those blades were added to the throne. Surviving swords weren't captured, weren't demanded by Aegon, and ultimately weren't made part of the throne.

Don't get me wrong... i do find it all very curious.... and there's almost certainly more to it... I doubt possessing ancestral blades became a sudden fad 400 - 500 years ago in the South and spread north... what predated those Valyrian blades is an intriguing question. Why aren't they mentioned? Or are they?

Oh how I wish Theon and Ms Dustin had gone deeper down. The answers are there!

[Uncat]

imo the Great Other = Death = The Stranger = the Many Faced God

Love the idea that the Faceless Men are accountants of death. In a way, they're like the magical version of the maesters (accountants of knowledge). Both want to eradicate magic, I think, which is causing imbalance, chaos and disorder within their realms. The idea that the faceless men would be extremely upset about the resurrections of the wights, the fire-wights (Catelyn, Melisandre, etc), and drowned makes perfect sense. I wonder if the faceless men are even against Weirwood immortality? On the other hand, the face magic of the faceless men is something of a resurrection itself. Blood and bones and skin are so terribly, terribly important to magic, too bad we don't know more.

***

Isn't it horribly funny that we've all overlooked this? Every house has a story about their ancestral sword, but from the very first book, we've been told that Aegon made his chair from the swords of his enemies! Do you really think Aegon would be content to use the swords of hedge knights and sworn swords to craft the symbol of his rule? Nope, i think the Targaryens knew enough of magic that to bind the kingdoms to them they had to have the swords of the kings/lords/rulers.

ETA: And since Dorne wasn't conquered, Dawn would be one of the very few ancestral swords not taken by Aegon.

In a way the faces thing is a temporary rescourection. But it is very short and the dead person is given back then. The corporeal ressourection of the red lot is very different from this. And what is even more different is the idea of it and people are so good in killing each other over different ideas to solve the same problem (the suffering of the individual slave in this case) ;)

As for the swords: Your so right on this. And the stupid thing is, I alway imagined those swords to be the ones of the lords. But I always stopped at that point...

[Uncat]

There is one thing about Ice: Tywin has it split into two lighter blades for Geofry and Jamie. And the armourer who does this tell, that the steel would behave fifferently from what he is used to. He tried to color the folds into crimson but the outcome was always a dark blood red

There explizitly are (though very few) armourers who know how to rework the existing Vallyrian steel. And Tyvin would haven gone to no one else. So I assume, that Ice is different. I tended to link the color, the folds accepted, to the blood of the former owner to whom the blade was bound by some magic. But may that is not the reason. :dunno:

[Elaena Targaryen]

If I might offer a supposition ....The Iron Throne is wrought of the swords of the vanquished.... I took that to mean those who were killed. If Tohrren knelt and pledged fealty, it would seem that Aegon thought he'd not salt the wounded pride by demanding his sword... the same went for other houses that knelt. I imagine that if any lords perished on the burning field and had Valyrian blades, those blades were added to the throne. Surviving swords weren't captured, weren't demanded by Aegon, and ultimately weren't made part of the throne.

I checked AGOT and it never said where the swords came from only that the songs say it was made with a thousand swords. I checked the wiki and it says it was made with swords surrendered from his enemies. That may be from Martin or not, it could be incorrect. If anyone finds something more concrete please let us know.

Don't get me wrong... i do find it all very curious.... and there's almost certainly more to it... I doubt possessing ancestral blades became a sudden fad 400 - 500 years ago in the South and spread north... what predated those Valyrian blades is an intriguing question. Why aren't they mentioned? Or are they?

Oh how I wish Theon and Ms Dustin had gone deeper down. The answers are there!

This is what I have been thinking before the theory, so I agree it's intriguing any way you look at it. I don't think I would have considered this theory before all of the timeline discussions in the Heresy threads. So I think we can still look at other possibilities because something is strange with the whole thing. I do like the Iron Throne idea and it makes a lot of sense but it's still debatable.

[lokisnow]

I've also managed to convince myself that the Iron Throne is an important magical object, not hinge of the world important, but probably Storm's End important.

[Uncat]

Which reminds me of the coniquest itself. I just came across the first mention of the huge map of westerosat Dragonstone. Aegon must have spend a lot time there, pondering on how to unite the land under one rule - and on how to establish this rule as a permanent thing. Sure he had Dragon. But this is the difference between power and rulership: Both subject people to your will. But if you only are the ruler by power, you will contantly have to wield that power and thus spend it over the time. But if you manage to get real rulership established, you will not need to wield your power in order to rule. People will just do, what you want because they accept you as the legitimate ruler.

Aegon came as a conqueror. But Westeros did accept himsoon enough as the legitimate ruler. If the Lords of Westeros would have wanted to get rid of the Targeryans, the would have been lots of chances, especialy after the great war dragons of the conquest were gone. If ACOK and ASOS as books send one message about rulership it is that only warriors and boys try to decided wars in the battle. The wise men decide their wars before, between and after battles. Aegon seems to have been a wise man. And the Iron Thron wrought of the Swords of Westeros is a part of the plan he had to establish his families rule over Westeros.

[Uncat]

Two last thoughts om this on my way to work.

First: A Throne made of Swords and a set of swords forged with magic given to the lords of men eager for power (magic along with dragonfire is needed to forge valyrian steel). Who else is reminded of The One Ring to rule them all? Same goes for the crown of the King in the North. Nine swords on a ring of bronce as in nine ring wraiths bound to the Ring of Power. And b.t.w.: the leader of the Ring Wraiths once was the King in the Northern Kingdom of the LOTR world. Not saying that this holds any relevance for the plott in any way. But it makes for a nice hommage. :)

Second: I know who will get Dark Sister if that sword ever turns up. It will go to Jons twisted and really dark little sister ;)

Edits: Typo, as allways

[Black Crow]

BTW, has there been any connection in the heresy threads between Water Dancers and Wood Dancers?

Up to a point yes, I drew attention to the similarities when pointing out that Wood Dancers were warriors and that both were reflected in the way the White Walkers moved.

Some interesting stuff on the swords overnight. While its possible that some families may have possessed Valyrian swords before the conquest, I think that on balance its likelier that they surrendered their old swords when bending the knee to the dragons and received back again a Valyrian sword as a mark of that fealty. The near superstitious attachment to these family swords seems to suggest this since it far transcends their actual value.

[jon rr stark]

But that doesn't answer the question of why Aegon would settle for a lesser blade for his throne, if they had valyrian steel, he would want that yielded, not your everyday castle forged blade.

It was made from the swords gathered from the battle field

[Black Crow]

Animadversions on timelines Part the Second

As I noted above our troubles with the timelines do not end with the arrival of the Andals and the advent of written records. The simple fact that there is confusion over when they actually arrived in Westeros is the clearest evidence of this. We’re told they were in the Vale a whole 6,000 years ago. On the other hand there appears to be a certain consensus they actually arrived 4,000 years ago, as part of the ripples of the expanding Valyrian Empire, then we’re told some Maesters think it could be as “recently” as 2,000 years ago. I’m inclined to go with the latter for various reasons which I’ll discuss in a moment but given this uncertainty the one thing which we can therefore be sure of is that there isn’t a proper historical record.

This in turn obviously has certain implications in removing certainties as to other aspects of Westerosi history and I’m inclined to wonder if like time immemorial reliable history only goes back to Aegon’s Conquest. Before that there are certainly some records but nothing which can relied upon to provide a definitive non-verbal history, which is presumably why GRRM has cautioned that Old Nan’s stories are the only true histories.

So if we take the timelines so confidently set out in the Wiki as being mince, where, beyond Aegon do we start?

As outlined in Part the First, we know that before the Andals, the First Men and the Old Races co-habited more or less peacefully under the Pact. We haven’t really agreed on the nature and purpose of the Wall other than that it was raised by magic rather than men and that it doesn’t seem to have been built as a defence against the Others.

There is a tradition it was built 8,000 years ago. Both this statement and the reference to the great battle against the Wildling Kings Gorne and Gendel taking place 3,000 years may both be taken once again as mince. Using oral histories (even supplemented by runes) dates like that are simply infeasible. All we can really presume is that they are ways of saying it all happened long ago, and that the Wall came first. Where the real problem comes in is when somebody else comes along much later who is using a proper calendar and extends it backwards to accommodate these fantastical dates.

This has direct consequences for the history of the Watch. A few threads back we made the unremarkable computation that if there were 998 Lord Commanders and the Wall was built 8,000 years ago, then that all made perfect sense because it allowed an average of 8 years tenure for each before we reached the supposed construction date. This didn’t of course allow for Sam’s doubts, but… Of late we’ve been having trouble with the history of the Watch and thinking about the possibility that it only moved up to hold the Wall as recently as 1,000 years ago, when we think the Pact was broken in the North.

Lets say this is so. In our world in the renaissance period people were very keen on constructing elaborate genealogies. We have Scottish King lists which seemingly go back long before there was a Scotland, and one enterprising gentleman, Thomas Urquhart of Cromartie famously produced a genealogy taking his house back to Adam – and he wasn’t alone. GRRM is perfectly aware of this so what if the Lord Commander list is the same? A complete work of fiction filed with enough names to take it back to the supposed building date of the Wall?

This would also explain the business of the Night’s King being erased from the List and History. Some of us think he’s much more recent and that if he’s tied into the Night that Ended and the blowing of horns to welcome returning rangers going back 1,000 years – rather than 8,000 – then he might well be erased from a record which only goes back 1,000 rather than 8,000 years.

If we rid ourselves of this umpteen thousand years baggage and allow for things getting bent and twisted over the years, I’d like therefore to present Professor Crow’s alternative scenario.

The Andals arrived in Westeros as recently as between one and two thousand years ago, conquering most of the seven kingdoms and slaughtered or chasing off the Children. Only the North held out until about one thousand years ago when a peace deal was brokered, which required Stark of Winterfell to betray his brother the King of Winter/Night’s King. In return for peace he and Joruman allowed the Night’s Watch across the Neck and together defeated Bran Stark and expelled him and the surviving Children and “old races” beyond the Wall. Then at some point after that there was the great battle spoken of by Ygritte in which the Wildling brothers Gorne and Gendel were defeated by the Watch and perhaps that same Stark of Winterfell, not as raiders who had come south of the Wall but as Joruman’s people then still living below the Wall and that the battle was not just a big raid, but marks the point at which the Wildlings who refused to bow the knee were expelled beyond the Wall

[Lummel]

The iron throne is symbolic of Westeros' inability to resist Aegon and his dragons but also serves as a reminder to Aegon of the potential threat to his authority. I don't see any reason to think that there was a magical element binding people to him through melting the swords of their relatives nor that those swords were individually significant. I think if I remember correctly it was made from swords gathered from the field of fire. If so it could have included two royal swords but also a mass of blades carried by lesser men.

Once in place Aegon is a classic outsider king. Because he came from outside the traditional competition and rivalries between the seven kingdoms he was acceptable as an overlord. It's not as though he demands a lot and he offers an escape from the ongoing warfare between the small kingdoms.

On this my views are decidedly orthodox I'm afraid :).

[Iceborn]

Ice is 400 years old and from Valerya therefore it is my thinking that valyrian blades where given to all of the houses that pledged fealty to the Targaryens, much like the dragonglass daggers after the Pact, however the first Ice may well be a Other blade as it was wielded by the kings of winter. (all in the first Catlyn chapter (ever))

[Lummel]

To be given a sword by the King would be a special mark of favour so it is worth remembering that nobody when thinking about or talking about their valyrian steel swords ever connects them to the targaryens.

More likely that valyrian steel weapons were obtained by families and individuals through their own efforts.

[Cerulean]

Although the text does state that the blades of the vanquished were used to forge the Iron Throne, this does not necessarily mean the actual swords of the foes vanquished in combat. As the Throne itself is a physical representation of a King's high seat, perhaps the blades that were given to forge it were given more in ceremony? I am thinking... how many thousands were vanquished? Upon the field of fire, if everything was set ablaze and smouldering, wouldn't those swords have simply melted into puddles of slag to harden on the earth?

I believe the swords were more ceremonial than aught else - and with all the other descriptions of the Iron Throne we have at hand (all the barbs, jagged swords still sharp after countless centuries) indeed, it is reputed that Valyrian Steel holds its edge remarkably well... but again, it seems some sort of magic was used to forge the Iron Throne, being that dragons are creatures of some sort of "magic". I do think that if there was Valyrian Steel on the Iron Throne, then some mention would have been made of it at some point. With all the other little details GRRM likes to throw into the stories to further the history and imagination for his readers, I simply can't believe he wouldn't include a snippet like that. With the symbolic representation of a (possible) set number of Valyrian blades, I do like the thought that they were originally given to the Great Houses of the land of Westeros prior to their being conquered by dragonfire. The "one ring to rule them all" theory does sound juicy here, but I don't think there is any inherent magic in that action itself, more a symbol. If you refer to FULL inscription "One ring to rule them all - One ring to find them - One ring to call them home and in the Darkness bind them" doesn't really seem to apply here, at least not in that depth. It seems the Iron Throne was not to hold or seize their power, but only representing all those who submitted to the rule of the Iron Throne.

As others have said, why salt the wounds of your recently conquered enemies? We are talking about Targaryens here - not Joffrey Lannister! Again, the blades were ceremonial - it wouldn't matter if it was the grand sword of the house, another held in antiquity, or a freshly-forged blade from a Castle's weaponsmith. The symbolism of the blade turned over to the new High King to forge his throne would be the same.

And on a separate note, as I read through the books again and again, there are many references of the Maesters "forging" their links for their collars. All different kinds of metals, as there are all different kinds of people that they are there to help, and serve. This strikes me as passing curious. A reference is made AFFC (IIRC) about going before the ArchMaesters to prattle knowledge to be (allowed?) to forge a link on their maester's chain. When they are granted the permission to do this (having all necessary knowledge) do they forge the links themselves? This is a gaping hole that hasn't been fully explained in the text, and it leaves me curious. With there being several mentions of Maesters having Valyrian Steel links in their collars, a couple questions thereby present themselves (after addressing the fact as to whether they forge the links themselves with their own to hands...) My first question is, whether by a maester's hands new Valyrian Steel is created to forge a ring, or another piece of Valyrian Steel is used... they are still reworking the steel. If so few know how to work Valyrian steel, how do the maesters do it at the citadel? There is talk of obsidian candles, and magic waking again in the world, but the maesters have been forging their chains for how long? I may be wrong about this, but the sound is that the Citadel in Oldtown predates the Targaryen invasion (obviously) but even the Andal Invasion. I don't know, I'm curious. Back with timelines.

Maybe someone has some ideas or insight? I know this is the Heresy thread, but those items popped to mind, and put me in the question of in fact whether or not these "sacred" and "ancient" swords purported to have come from the brimstone ruins of Valyria pre-doom are in fact what they say they are or not. It simply ties in to previous statements and thoughts. :)

[Lummel]

The valyrian steel links at the citadel are reworked from existing bits of valyrian steel. GRRM tells us this himself in an interview actually in the 'last part of TIFF in conversation' film linked to on the lefthand side under the latest news.

Reworking a bit of steel to make a link seems to me to be a more straight forward task than reworking valyrian steel to make an edged weapon but any way GRRM has spoken.

[Uncat]

Uhh oh, haven't been carefull enough. I wasn't going for any LOTR analogy here. I just made me happy to spot some little detail, that a LOTR fan might take as a hommage. I don't think the swords are magic swords. I liked the idee of the Valyrian swords as tokens of peace. But the magic I was reffering to is just the magic, that the Valyrians smiths used to forge and work the steel.

But, Lummel, if I'm not completly mistaken, there is this one example of reworking valyrian steel into a new wappon. In the initial Tyrion chapter of ASOS pt.2, Tyvin show two swords to Tyrion both of Valyrian steel. And later (and it there that I might be going wrong as I haven't got to that part yet) we learn from Jamie that those swords were made from Ice. I rember being realy shocked on my first read, that now really nothing remains from Ned. Or is just on of the blades a reworked Ice?

Same thing goes for the crown of the king in the North. I still take it as a nice little reverence to LOTR. But it is nothing that in any way will influence the plott. Unless those swords refere to the first nine sworn swords of the Nights Watch or something similar. But there is nothing there to sustains this. So I take it that, they are just this: little swords on a crown.

[Cerulean]

There's so much information, and so many posts on this site, it's hard to keep up with every tidbit. Thanks for that information, Lummel.

But still, the statement holds true... if they are reforging bits of existing Valyrian steel (are these just chunks of steel, steel bars, what?) why can't a Maester learn weaponsmithing? Certainly there is a child of an armorer or something at some point that turned to the Citadel. :)

Crackpot, but there. I can't help but wonder if the Citadel couldn't at least in TANDEM with a weaponsmith forge new Valyrian steel. The Maester assists in helping the Valyrian steel keep its properties while the weaponsmith hammers the weapon into what it's supposed to be?

Just so. I have a niggling suspicion that the Citadel might be GRRM's version of the Vatican's secrets. The Citadel trains maesters to be chained, to serve, a most notably altruistic function as observers and all.. but as we see, Marwyin for example, does still dabble in the ancient magics. It just leaves me wondering.

[Uncat]

Crackpot, but there. I can't help but wonder if the Citadel couldn't at least in TANDEM with a weaponsmith forge new Valyrian steel. The Maester assists in helping the Valyrian steel keep its properties while the weaponsmith hammers the weapon into what it's supposed to be?

No, the maesters can't forge new Valyrian steel. You need the hottest magical fire knowen in the world of Westeros and Essos, dragonfire. And that they don't have.