Has Varys always known Jon Snow's parents are R and L? (spoiler)

[SGTHatred]

Personally I doubt Varys has any birds in the North. Everywhere else in Westeros sure most definitely but in Winterfell and other areas of the north i would doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPtBpvptBY right around 1:06

[Dragonfish]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=EbPtBpvptBY right around 1:06

That's from the show, not the book. In the book, Varys knows of Catelyn's arrival because the man whose ship she took informed on her. I don't recall anything from the books that hints at Varys having any little birds in the North, though I suppose it's not impossible.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=EbPtBpvptBY right around 1:06

This is on the show only, not the book. Varys knows about Catelyn's arrival because someone on her shipped narced on her, not because he had "little birds" in Winterfell.

A lot of the illusion of Varys' power rests on him tricking people into believing that his net is wider than it is. It's not like he knew Cat was coming the minute she stepped foot outside Winterfell.

ETA: Damn it, Dragonfish beat me. :P

[ServantOnIce]

It is possible that R and L = J but that may not be the case. The reality is that it may be as Cersei said on the TV show, "Ashara Dayne + Ned = Jon Snow" Stannis says in SOS that Jon Snow looks like Eddard and in DWD it clearly states that Snow is "all Stark" in his looks. Hey time will tell . . I am read for WOW

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It is possible that R and L = J but that may not be the case. The reality is that it may be as Cersei said on the TV show, "Ashara Dayne + Ned = Jon Snow" Stannis says in SOS that Jon Snow looks like Eddard and in DWD it clearly states that Snow is "all Stark" in his looks. Hey time will tell . . I am read for WOW

1. Cersei says it in the book, too, not just on the show.

2. If Arya looks like her aunt Lyanna, why can't Jon look like his uncle Ned? Arya and Jon are supposed to look alike, too. So if Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, then Jon also looks like Lyanna. Stannis also looks at Jon from the perspective of someone who thinks he's Ned's bastard. That might color what he thinks of his looks. Someone looking at Jon, knowing that Lyanna's his mother, could easily say, "He looks like his mother."

3. Jon can be "all Stark" in his looks and still be Rhaegar's son. Rhaenys didn't look like him either, and Baelor Breakspear didn't look like Daeron II. I tend to think that Martin inserted Targs who look like non-Targ mothers specifically to hint that Jon's looks alone don't knock him out of contention. It's even noted in The Hedge Knight. Dunk says Baelor doesn't look like a Targ and Egg says no, he looks like his mother.

[Fred Stark]

I think Cersei argument with Ned in the Godswood is another evidence that Ashara is not Jon's mother.While the whole argument Ned thinks about Lyanna and his children but show no guilt or remorse when Cersei acused him with stealing Jon snow from Ashara and that being the cause of her death..

[Fred Stark]

Yeah there was a thread about this but it got shut down, I think? Anyway, he said 'the Targaryens are practically all wiped out except for Dany' - note practically. This could mean that Aegon is fake, that he said that because he didn't want to give too many spoilers away from later books (I think the thing was mainly a Game of Thrones thing, not ASOIAF), or that Dany is the last Targaryen that we know of. Besides, isn't Bloodraven Targaryen?

Also, Robb Stark marched south before Ned was beheaded - he was marching south to free Ned, and had already fought and captured Jaime, when word came that Ned had been executed.

But did you notice his expression after he said that..he looks as though he was trying to hide or supress his espression...it could be that Aegon is fake and George accidentally told us and he was trying his best to not make it obvious or he was trying to hide his laughter as there are Targaryens in the books that are yet to be revealed(Jon snow? or even Tyrion as some people had brought up..most likely Jon)..

[David C. Hunter]

Idk, Im a crackpot

Varys doesnt know about Jon.

Varys is loyal to theidea of the Maesters, not the Blackfyres or Targs.

Jon is Rhagor's son.

All of the Stark's survival are the keys to the story.

All the best chess masters of this game do not know:

1.) Bran is alive and about to warg into every animal

2.) Rickon is alive on Skaagos

3.) Jon Snow is half Targ

4.) Arya is alive on Braavos

5.) That Sansa is with Littlefinger(Besides littlefinger that is).

However smart Varys, Illyrio, Littlefinger, Doran, etc, none of them know that they Stark children are alive or that they are any threat. The Starks will survive them all, through the white walkers, winter, dragons and game of thrones, hence the name Stark.

The only thing I dislike about where the story is headed is that Tyrion will be fighting against Team Stark, ugh

[Ygrain]

IMHO, there is no way Varys can know.

1) When Rhaegar disappered with Lyanna, Aerys had people look for him but no-one could find him. Meaning, ToJ was a pretty isolated spot and in no way associated with the possibility of Rhaegar's whereabouts, therefore Varys cannot send any spies over there if he doesn't know where to send them.

2) ToJ is a small place. Even if Varys did figure out its location, he could hardly get someone infiltrate it.

3)Since the place was isolated and not advertised, hardly anyone except Rhaegar's trustees knew it was called Tower of Joy, and therefore no-one had a reason to wonder about the name.

4)Whatever smallfolk served at ToJ, they were most probably from Starfall, i.e. with no connections to KL and Varys, and most probably picked for loyalty and trustworthiness.

5)Rhaegar apparently did not share his secrets with all of KG; Barristan was never part of his "inner circle" of friends.

6)Rhaegar had no reason to trust Varys, since Varys was actively driving a wedge between him and Aerys (the only reason why Aerys attended the tourney at Harrenhall was that Varys whispered in his ears suspicions that Rhaegar was rallying support among the nobles to depose Aerys)

7)Lyanna's location was a secret, and so was her condition, or else Ned wouldn't have taken such a small and trustworthy company with him. After that, only few lived who knew, out of whom no-one had a reason to talk anywhere. What is not talked, cannot be overheard and reported.

8) I don't think Ned started advertising he had a bastard after he returned from the south, that would certainly be suspicious. Sending Jon to Winterfell, by ship most of the way, and letting the gossip of lord Stark's bastard spread from the NORTH would totally obliterate any connection with the South and obscure the date of Jon's conception and birth as "some time during the war". Absolutely no reason for anyone to start suspecting anything, since this kind of stuff simply happens all too often.

9)If Ned ever wrote the letter, there is no way he would just spill a secret he was guarding for fourteen years. I'd place my bet on an apology and a cryptic message "go talk to so-and-so" (most probably HR)

[Ojji]

Hate to break it to you, but Jon Snow isn't Rhaegars and Lyannas kid, nor has it ever been proven.

[Ygrain]

Hate to break it to you, but Jon Snow isn't Rhaegars and Lyannas kid, nor has it ever been proven.

Hate to break it to you but GRRM has never said one way or the other, therefore you cannot claim either. As for the proof, the gathered evidence pro covers a couple of pages (now, where's that wonderful link to that compilation, anyone?); as for the contra, I have yet to see ANY.

[scotcat]

Hate to break it to you, but Jon Snow isn't Rhaegars and Lyannas kid, nor has it ever been proven.

It hasn't been disproved either.

As for the whole he can't be a Targaryen because he looks like a Stark argument - if Lyanna was his mother, it just means he takes after her side of the family. Rhaenys didn't look Targaryen either. In the end, I can't say one way or another if R+L=J, because only GRRM knows for sure, but it's sparked some nice debates for and against and that's half the fun until its proved or disproved decisively.

[Ojji]

Hate to break it to you but GRRM has never said one way or the other, therefore you cannot claim either. As for the proof, the gathered evidence pro covers a couple of pages (now, where's that wonderful link to that compilation, anyone?); as for the contra, I have yet to see ANY.

Oh so there's evidence, do tell!

[Knight Of Winter]

Oh so there's evidence, do tell!

This website made quite a good summary:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

[David Selig]

That's from the show, not the book. In the book, Varys knows of Catelyn's arrival because the man whose ship she took informed on her. I don't recall anything from the books that hints at Varys having any little birds in the North, though I suppose it's not impossible.

IIRC he got news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" pretty quickly and the capture of Winterfell by Theon pretty quickly, which is a hint he had agents in the North.

[Red Raven]

I seriously doubt Varys knows about Jon's parentage; that was a secret Ned kept clamped down pretty tight.

If Varys does know then that makes Howland Reed redundant and all of GRRM's efforts to make Howland a key to the events at the ToJ would be just wasted words.

Varys is well-informed but not omniscient, there have to be some things he doesn't know and I'd love to see Jon end up being a spanner in Vary's works.

ETA: Varys being a secret Blackfyre and somehow related to "Aegon VI" works for me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hate to break it to you, but Jon Snow isn't Rhaegars and Lyannas kid, nor has it ever been proven.

O rly?

[ebcarlton]

Varys knows. Ned wrote a letter to Jon while he was imprisoned at the end of AGoT and gave it to Varys. We never find out what that letter said, but it was very much on Ned's mind to tell Jon a thing or two before he passed away. Hence, the letter, in Varys' possession, that never got delivered.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Varys knows. Ned wrote a letter to Jon while he was imprisoned at the end of AGoT and gave it to Varys. We never find out what that letter said, but it was very much on Ned's mind to tell Jon a thing or two before he passed away. Hence, the letter, in Varys' possession, that never got delivered.

I don't think it's confirmed that Ned ever actually sent the letter. He thinks about it but he knows that if he sent a letter, Varys would read it. Knowing that Varys would read it and probably hang onto it, Ned doesn't send it.

[ebcarlton]

Where'd the letter go, then?