R+L=J v.22

[Sasha Steelsong]

Well, Tyrion helped Jon accept who he was, so why not do the same for Daenerys? I only fear he might end up a bit burned after that; being the Kingslayer's brother certainly won't count in his favor.

I really don't understand this "the dragon", "true dragon" thing - it seems to me that's just another of Viserys' stories that Daenerys took too seriously. Or... the first indication she's following the same path as her dear father :P

Agreed. I think Tyrion is going to explain some hard truths to Dany in ways that people until now have been unable/unwilling to do. The only real shame being that Tyrion has NO IDEA as to the real reason Jamie killed Aerys, so while I actually think that Dany would be receptive to that reason (Dany whatever her issues I don't think would ever condone the intentional incineration of a city and its all its people by the city's own ruler - what she condones towards enemies is something totally different than charing your own children which is how Dany views her subjects) she won't be able to hear it from Tyrion cause he doesn't know. This sucks because I think he would be best at making Jamie's case. What might help him however is the fact that he killed Tywin whom Dany also hates (and is accused of killing Joffery). If anything it might buy Tyrion some time to prove his worth.

As for the true dragon thing...I think it is something that is totally true about real dragons that over the generations just got sort of applied to the family that used them as a sigil like a game of telephone gone wrong. I.e. "real dragons (wings, scales, breathe fire not Targ children born of a sanctified union) can't be killed by fire" got morphed into "true dragons (this time the kids of a sactified union) can't be killed by fire" and misunderstanding and charring ensued for centuries with no one questioning it.

ETA: Whoops didn't realize this was in the R+L=J thread..been posting sort of on this topic today and didn't know where I was. My bad entirely.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

(Dany whatever her issues I don't think would ever condone the intentional incineration of a city and its all its people by the city's own ruler - what she condones towards enemies is something totally different than charing your own children which is how Dany views her subjects)

Aren't there at least a few people on here who think that Dany will do that to Meereen when she gets back?

Also ... this is an R+L=J thread. :D

[Screaming Knight]

Aren't there at least a few people on here who think that Dany will do that to Meereen when she gets back?

Also ... this is an R+L=J thread. :D

Hahaha. You are like clockwork with your posts reminding everyone what thread this is. I think at version 22 we can allow a sidebar that stems from the main idea. I know there's a couple threads that pertain to these topics but we got momentum. I'm learning some things here.

[Screaming Knight]

Aren't there at least a few people on here who think that Dany will do that to Meereen when she gets back?

Also ... this is an R+L=J thread. :D

And I do think dany will do that when she returns to mereen.

[Lady Octarina]

One last post on this topic: =P

Agreed. I think Tyrion is going to explain some hard truths to Dany in ways that people until now have been unable/unwilling to do. The only real shame being that Tyrion has NO IDEA as to the real reason Jamie killed Aerys, so while I actually think that Dany would be receptive to that reason (Dany whatever her issues I don't think would ever condone the intentional incineration of a city and its all its people by the city's own ruler - what she condones towards enemies is something totally different than charing your own children which is how Dany views her subjects) she won't be able to hear it from Tyrion cause he doesn't know. This sucks because I think he would be best at making Jamie's case. What might help him however is the fact that he killed Tywin whom Dany also hates (and is accused of killing Joffery). If anything it might buy Tyrion some time to prove his worth.

I really don't think Daenerys would listen to him about crazy Aerys; didn't Barristan suggest he was crazy and wasn't she pissed at the idea?

Anyway, back to R+L=J, I've been thinking... what if Jon actually learns the truth (if he has to learn the truth, that's up to Martin), through a dream sent by Bloodraven/Bran? I mean, Bran has done that before, but now with Bloodraven's help... any chance he might actually be able to send Jon images of the past?

I don't know, I just feel like we might have two different kind of chapters from Jon before he comes back (or before he ceases to be a POV, who knows?) - one in Ghost!form, the other as a dream... Pure speculation (with a possible drop of wishful thinking), but still...

[Independent George]

Yea. Definitely quite possible. 'true dragon' could just be something fabricated throughtout history by the targaryens. It would be contemplative of barristan to forewarn dany on her family's history of madness and how much of it was associated with their fascination with fire.

I tend to think of 'True Dragons' the same way I think of True Scotsmen.

[Screaming Knight]

One last post on this topic: =P

I really don't think Daenerys would listen to him about crazy Aerys; didn't Barristan suggest he was crazy and wasn't she pissed at the idea?

Anyway, back to R+L=J, I've been thinking... what if Jon actually learns the truth (if he has to learn the truth, that's up to Martin), through a dream sent by Bloodraven/Bran? I mean, Bran has done that before, but now with Bloodraven's help... any chance he might actually be able to send Jon images of the past?

I don't know, I just feel like we might have two different kind of chapters from Jon before he comes back (or before he ceases to be a POV, who knows?) - one in Ghost!form, the other as a dream... Pure speculation (with a possible drop of wishful thinking), but still...

I think if Jon is alive and we get a POV from him that the majority of his thoughts will center on his confusion and obscurity on what happened to him. I definitely do not think he is dead but went to "the other side" and possibly had a bran-like experience that will elaborate on what bran saw. I think his story will be picked up with him being awakened from a long coma which he was living in ghost and having

visions of significance that he will not know the meaning of and this will be the focal point of his POVs, trying to make sense of what he saw. And oh yea, also focusing on that war that is going on and dealing with the fact that his brothers stabbed him. I wonder if he will even be on the wall when the story picks up.

[Elito]

Anything that Dany and Viserys say about "dragons," including their immunity to disease and flame retardant-ness, should be taken with a huge heaping spoon of salt, given that we know from examples that neither is true. They are unreliable narrators and they each have a vested personal and political interest in furthering myths about their family having godlike powers. I don't know why any stock is put into Dany's "fire cannot kill a dragon" line, when fire has killed "dragons" and non-dragons alike and will probably do so again. The only thing her delusions of grandeur will bring her is an eventual Darwin Award-winning fiery death. As I pointed out above, the Targs who are extremely fixated on fire and dragon imagery are the crazy ones. :P

I do think that Dany is crazy but (in my opinion) she is clever too. When the pale mare hits Mereen, she said she won't get sick because she is the blood of the dragon (I agree with Apple that that is just crap), but Dany reasons to herself that in all her life she has never been sick, well that is her prove (seriously how lucky can she be to not get sick in such a long time), so she knows that at the very least she has a very strong immune system, so she does not believes in her resistance to sickness because she is a Targ but because she has experienced it herself, and she uses it too, by saying that she does not gets sick because she is the blood of the dragon, her subdits have more respect for her and her enemies fear her as blood of the dragon.

I personally hope that she has enough control of Drogon when she gets back to burn Meeren.

Anyway, back to R+L=J, I've been thinking... what if Jon actually learns the truth (if he has to learn the truth, that's up to Martin), through a dream sent by Bloodraven/Bran? I mean, Bran has done that before, but now with Bloodraven's help... any chance he might actually be able to send Jon images of the past?

I don't know, I just feel like we might have two different kind of chapters from Jon before he comes back (or before he ceases to be a POV, who knows?) - one in Ghost!form, the other as a dream... Pure speculation (with a possible drop of wishful thinking), but still...

I really like it...by now maybe Bran already knows. Does anyone know if it was Bran that made the Mormount crow say "Jon Snow"?

[Ygrain]

Aren't there at least a few people on here who think that Dany will do that to Meereen when she gets back?

Also ... this is an R+L=J thread. :D

Sooo... what do you think that Jon will think of her when he learns that she burnt Meereen? SOmehow, I don't see those two living happily ever after (and I'll puke if they do - I like them both but it would be the worst cliche come true)

One more thing: the supposed Targaryen fireproofness, where does it come from? I never fancied the idea while reading, is this somehow expressed in the show?

[redriver]

This has probably been up before,so apologies in advance.

I was reading ACOK last night where Theon had a nightmare-he saw all the people he had killed,then what appeared to be scenes from the RW.

Late he saw Robb and Grey Wind.But he also saw Lynna with her blue roses and her white dress covered in gore.

Can childbirth explain this gore?Could she have been attacked?Might some sort of a caesarian section been performed.

And the significance of the white dress?Marriage to Rhaegar?

[Ygrain]

This has probably been up before,so apologies in advance.

I was reading ACOK last night where Theon had a nightmare-he saw all the people he had killed,then what appeared to be scenes from the RW.

Late he saw Robb and Grey Wind.But he also saw Lynna with her blue roses and her white dress covered in gore.

Can childbirth explain this gore?Could she have been attacked?Might some sort of a caesarian section been performed.

And the significance of the white dress?Marriage to Rhaegar?

Birth can give a fair amount of gore, even without a caesarian section, which would be practically impossible to perform - I think it was used during the middle ages as extreme means to save the child when the mother was past saving.

I don't think white dress signifies marriage in Westeros, but white is a Stark colour, so maybe it serves as an identification of Lyanna

[lyvyathan]

I do think that Dany is crazy but (in my opinion) she is clever too. When the pale mare hits Mereen, she said she won't get sick because she is the blood of the dragon (I agree with Apple that that is just crap), but Dany reasons to herself that in all her life she has never been sick, well that is her prove (seriously how lucky can she be to not get sick in such a long time), so she knows that at the very least she has a very strong immune system, so she does not believes in her resistance to sickness because she is a Targ but because she has experienced it herself, and she uses it too, by saying that she does not gets sick because she is the blood of the dragon, her subdits have more respect for her and her enemies fear her as blood of the dragon.

I'd tend to give Dany a bit of latitude - and withhold my judgement of her - after all she walked into a burning funeral pyre, hatched 3 Dragon eggs and basically came out intact. Any character who does that is so far beyond human frailties to be called "crazy".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sooo... what do you think that Jon will think of her when he learns that she burnt Meereen? SOmehow, I don't see those two living happily ever after (and I'll puke if they do - I like them both but it would be the worst cliche come true)

I don't see how they would like each other. He'd find her willful ignorance of history and eye-for-an-eye "justice" to be extremely distasteful, and he's not the violent, macho, strutting peacock she usually goes for.

One more thing: the supposed Targaryen fireproofness, where does it come from? I never fancied the idea while reading, is this somehow expressed in the show?

The show screwed this up by having Dany holding hot eggs that didn't burn her when they did burn Doreah. Nothing like this is in the book, but it's confusing people who got into the show first, I guess. Actually, in the book, she was the only one who could even tell they gave off heat.

[The GreatRon]

Ive said it before I dont think Jon will give a shit at all if its revealed hes a Targstark, Hell be upset with Ned for not telling him, but hell get over it and realize how much Winterfell and the north mean to him.

Eddard did everything he could for him, he was raised better than most bastards could dream of, he had companionship with Robb and Arya.

If Jon says screw Eddard ill be pissed.

He didn't even wanna command the NW, I cant believe he would want the Iron Throne at all.

[Lady Octarina]

Ive said it before I dont think Jon will give a shit at all if its revealed hes a Targstark, Hell be upset with Ned for not telling him, but hell get over it and realize how much Winterfell and the north mean to him.

Eddard did everything he could for him, he was raised better than most bastards could dream of, he had companionship with Robb and Arya.

If Jon says screw Eddard ill be pissed.

He didn't even wanna command the NW, I cant believe he would want the Iron Throne at all.

I don't think his taking the throne would be denying his Stark raising, the same way I don't think the fact that he wouldn't want the throne means he won't have it. Maybe I read too much Plato, but I'm a firm believer (at least where literature is concerned) that the best ruler will be the one who didn't want that power, who didn't spend his whole life seeking it, dreaming about it, or hoping he would have it some day. Which is why Jon is exactly the king Westeros needs.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think his taking the throne would be denying his Stark raising, the same way I don't think the fact that he wouldn't want the throne means he won't have it. Maybe I read too much Plato, but I'm a firm believer (at least where literature is concerned) that the best ruler will be the one who didn't want that power, who didn't spend his whole life seeking it, dreaming about it, or hoping he would have it some day. Which is why Jon is exactly the king Westeros needs.

I've said this before too and I agree with your point. The people best suited to wield power are ironically the ones who don't actively seek it or who weren't raised to expect it. You see this in real life (Elizabeth I) and within the story (Aegon V).

[The GreatRon]

oh I definitely dont dispute that Jon might be the best man for the job if he had it, Im just not convinced he would willingly take the job, unless something like what Sam did to win him Lord Commander happened again.

[Elito]

Sooo... what do you think that Jon will think of her when he learns that she burnt Meereen? SOmehow, I don't see those two living happily ever after (and I'll puke if they do - I like them both but it would be the worst cliche come true)

I agree with the cliche part but I believe Jon will be happy to meet her, his main concern is the others not invading the "realms of man" so he can seriously use a dragon.

[Milcov]

Doesn't Varys say that Aegon had been raised to see power as his duty? So he's been raised for it, and Dany was never expecting power. She was expecting Viserys to have it.

That's off topic sort of, but I think Jon remains in the NW all his life (if he has any left to give). I hope there isn't some cheesy rebirth via Mel which means it's a new life and he's not bound to the Wall so he becomes King of all Westeros.

[Sasha Steelsong]

One last post on this topic: =P

I really don't think Daenerys would listen to him about crazy Aerys; didn't Barristan suggest he was crazy and wasn't she pissed at the idea?

Anyway, back to R+L=J, I've been thinking... what if Jon actually learns the truth (if he has to learn the truth, that's up to Martin), through a dream sent by Bloodraven/Bran? I mean, Bran has done that before, but now with Bloodraven's help... any chance he might actually be able to send Jon images of the past?

I don't know, I just feel like we might have two different kind of chapters from Jon before he comes back (or before he ceases to be a POV, who knows?) - one in Ghost!form, the other as a dream... Pure speculation (with a possible drop of wishful thinking), but still...

Barristan sort of started to get there and Dany started balking before he did, it was one of the times I was reminded about how young she is, because her reaction was very much like a child who is starting to hear something that they know to be true but don't want to listen. Dany is going to have to face the reality of her family at some point and as of yet no one has actually uttered the truth to her. They've started to lay the foundation and she's freaked....which I sort of get, realizing that a lot of your world view is shaped by the POV of someone who wasn't sane (Viserys) and that all you were told might not really be what you think it is would make most cringe but it still has to be done. I don't see Tyrion letting her discomfort with the truth stop him, especially if he starts to think that her knowing the truth may be to his advantage. I think my ultimate feelings towards Dany will be determined by how she takes the news when she does finally hear it. At present she's a little off the path for me but not irretrievably lost.

Anyway back to the topic...I totally believe Jon will find out from Bran/Bloodraven and that some communication will happen when he's out of it recovering (in whatever way) from his wounds. Like Bran's first contact with Bloodraven was when he was in a coma. I just think that like with Bran, Jon may not totally know what to make of his first encounter. For instance I don't think he's going to wake up with certain knowledge that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and Ned's his uncle. But he'll see things that to the readers will mean a lot but he won't have the context, but that his first visions will guide him to more concrete answers. Additionally I think that like Bran when he wakes Jon will be much more in touch with his actual powers, which he's thus far resisted.