Daenerys the Cheater

[Towel]

Yes, she is the most annoying Mary Sue I've ever found in a good book (and people complain bout Jon Snow... really)

And the fact that GRRM put two similar characters, on opposite sides of the world, one who's fire and one who is ice, doesn't strike you as significant? Like maybe he might flip it on it's ass in the next book? Like if the series had actually been three books this story arc might of been much more quickly dealt with?

[Sun]

My problem with Dany - aside from the dragons, which do in fact bother me - is that I find her neither likable nor interesting. I have no problem dealing with unlikable fictional characters, I wouldn't be on this forum if I did, but they have to be interesting. If a character is going to be as narcissistic and delusional as Dany is, then they have to have a depth to them that fascinates, and an environment that engages for me to want to read about them. Dany, imho, has neither. Add to that an arc that I find slow and contrived, and it shouldn't surprise anybody that I happily declare her the fly in my ASoIaF ointment.

To put it another way, if every main and semi-main character in ASoIaF decided to publish an autobiography, I would be very interested in buying each and every one of those books, including Damphair's. But I would much rather sit and twiddle my thumbs for 3 days than read Daenerys Targaryan's personal memoirs.

[guad]

Ooo, Girl. You mad, huh?

Whatever, whatever, but I think a lot of the Dany/Cat hate I see on this forum stems from people (mostly dudes) who feel challenged by reading about a strong female in a position of power/authority. All this character undermining with shit like, "DANY IS A BRAT" "WHY DOESN'T SHE FIGHT" "SHE'S A SLUT FOR LIKING DAARIO" while mind-boggling to some extent, is never surprising. Especially considering this genera (the war narrative) is usually dominated by violent, aggressive uber-masculine protagonists. Dany and Cat and Brienne and Arya and Sansa and Asha and (to a lesser extent) Arianne are an awesome way to subvert that trope, and they are the characters I enjoy reading about the most. At the end of the day, I couldn't give two shits if you like reading about Dany (books are first and foremost a personal form of media), and it's not my job to convince you of her value, but I will say that I think you're missing out.

Sorry 'bout it.

Well said :)

How unsurprising, don't like Dany = Sexist!

I like Catelyn, Asha, and Cersei does have her moments. But Dany is intolerable.

It' depends a lot on the reasons. As a simple example, ask people to think if they would have the same critizism if the character, in this case DAny, was Dan the Targaryen Prince.

Or to give another example I found on tumblr:

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

I'm pretty sure that fictional character (from another fandom) would get a lot of hate.

Btw, the character described above is Batman.

So again, before people give massive critizism on female characters, they should maybe ask themselves if it would bother them the same way if they were guys.

[eyeheartsansa]

Dany is great. If you can't appreciate all the twists and turns in her story arc, I wonder how you can claim to enjoy this series at all since she has such a big role in it. Chances are the OP actually does appreciate it, and the laundry list of grievances is just a roundabout way of expressing that. Otherwise they would have put down the books and moved on to something else.

I don't see her as having had too many 'convenient' breaks. first she gets sold into marriage against her will, then loses her brother, husband and unborn son; her dragons hatch and then most people in her khallasar, including her sexy sex tutor, die of starvation in the Red Waste. Then she goes to Quarth and finds that everyone only cares about using her for her dragons. Then she tries to abolish slavery, and accidentally starts a war she feels responsible. So yeah, things have been way too easy for her!! She should probably be dead by now, but then it wouldn't be a story.. however much we love the fact that GRRM loves to defy stereotypes, slaughter major characters and subvert literary tropes.. he is still writing for an audience. And more than anything, people like to read about characters who persevere over difficult circumstances, and her she is... persevering, treading water, whatever you call it. She is no Mary Sue.

I'm not going to address every single point in the OP, but I will say that Dany's ability (with help from her sexy sex tutor!) to win over Khal Drogo with her sexuality is pretty believable point to me. There is nothing 'convenient' or 'cheating' about this plot point! Never underestimate the power of a beautiful woman who knows how to please her man, especially when she gets on top. One of GRRM's strengths as a storyteller is that he has an innate understanding of human behavior, especially sexual behavior and how this can have a ripple effect on a global scale.

Giving GRRM a hard time for letting Khal Drogo have a soft spot seems a bit nitpicky to me. If he just some brute who just had his way with her, readers would given him a hard time over that too. He can't win! But I think anyone would agree that it's a testament to GRRM's writing that someone can make a 35+ point laundry list of things they don't like about one of his main characters, or the way that character is written; to inspire that much passion in his readers!

I think people are frustrated with Dany's chaarcter because it seems like she has been stuck in Mereen for 10+ years, because that's how long it has taken for these books to get published (since ASOS). But Westeros is like Narnia; a few months of story time can take years and years to be written and published. It's not like she' been sitting on her throne in Mereen twiddling her thumbs, nibbling on hummus and olives for a whole decade.. these events have unfolded rather quickly in Westeros time, and are only one step in her journey.

Whatever happens next will be a drastic change in momentum - now that she has been 'conveniently' (not before days and days of wandering in the desert, hallucinating and almost dying!) spotted by her old khallasar, what happens next is anyone's guess.

[Lizaveta Martell]

I have to say when I got to these forums, I was surprised by the Dany hate. She has a few flaws, but not any more or any more egregious than any other sympathetic characters, like Jaime or Robb or Arya or Brienne. From what I can tell, it's a mix of :

weird cultural preference for the Westeros story, rather than Essos

male privilege, slut shaming and general unpleasantness

impatience for Dany to go do a bunch of stuff in Westeros that she wouldn't know about and has no interest in (the Others?)

a lack of understanding that Dany is actually gifted, blessed, whatever. Again, it's a fantasy novel. Some characters are magicaller than others.

[jarl the climber]

I do not beleive that Dany is a villian. She is loved by her Unsullied and her freedmen and the Dothraki will respect a dragon rider. Ser Barristan felt that it was Dany alone who kept her coalition together. If I lived in this world I would be one of the fellows trying to find and serve her. The fact that she would sleep with a lowborn scumbag like Daario gives hope to all men.

[butterbumps!]

But I would much rather sit and twiddle my thumbs for 3 days than read Daenerys Targaryan's personal memoirs.

Can you imagine?

"And the next day, as I was contemplating my blood of the dragon, Daario fondled his swords. As I was saying, if I look back I'm lost, except when I remember that I'm the blood of the dragon."

Sorry I couldn't resist (and I don't care about Daario, except for the continuous reminder of his sword fondling).

[Lady Octarina]

Ooo, Girl. You mad, huh?

Whatever, whatever, but I think a lot of the Dany/Cat hate I see on this forum stems from people (mostly dudes) who feel challenged by reading about a strong female in a position of power/authority. All this character undermining with shit like, "DANY IS A BRAT" "WHY DOESN'T SHE FIGHT" "SHE'S A SLUT FOR LIKING DAARIO" while mind-boggling to some extent, is never surprising. Especially considering this genera (the war narrative) is usually dominated by violent, aggressive uber-masculine protagonists. Dany and Cat and Brienne and Arya and Sansa and Asha and (to a lesser extent) Arianne are an awesome way to subvert that trope, and they are the characters I enjoy reading about the most. At the end of the day, I couldn't give two shits if you like reading about Dany (books are first and foremost a personal form of media), and it's not my job to convince you of her value, but I will say that I think you're missing out.

Sorry 'bout it.

I'm a woman and I dislike Daenerys and Catelyn, whereas I love (or just like) Arya, Sansa, Arianne, Asha, Val, Brienne, and other badass female characters who just yell "GIRL POWER" wherever they go. I really don't know if the hatred coming from fanboys fits the explanation you gave, but at least from fangirls, it doesn't. Those two are annoying for what they do, for those crappy choices (and Daenerys for her unjustified megalomania), not for lacking a penis.

And the fact that GRRM put two similar characters, on opposite sides of the world, one who's fire and one who is ice, doesn't strike you as significant? Like maybe he might flip it on it's ass in the next book? Like if the series had actually been three books this story arc might of been much more quickly dealt with?

Well, except that Jon is ice AND fire, so... xD

But yes, I see the parallels in their stories. People have developed this much better than I ever could in other threads, but I basically enjoy the contrast between powerful Daenerys with her fire-breathing beasts who knows how to be a conqueror but is unable to learn how to be a ruler or to really understand other people or cultures, and Jon who gets kicked through most of the books, learns how to be a ruler and is killed (or not) for that. They will both have horrible endings too: Jon will sit on a cold throne and learn his parents died before he could have met them when all he actually wanted was to be Eddard Stark's heir, or at least keep his vows to the Watch, and Daenerys will learn she is neither immune to fire nor to diseases.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I have to say when I got to these forums, I was surprised by the Dany hate. She has a few flaws, but not any more or any more egregious than any other sympathetic characters, like Jaime or Robb or Arya or Brienne. From what I can tell, it's a mix of :

weird cultural preference for the Westeros story, rather than Essos

male privilege, slut shaming and general unpleasantness

impatience for Dany to go do a bunch of stuff in Westeros that she wouldn't know about and has no interest in (the Others?)

a lack of understanding that Dany is actually gifted, blessed, whatever. Again, it's a fantasy novel. Some characters are magicaller than others.

Yes. I, as a male, am a slut-shamer for criticizing Danaerys while liking Brienne. It couldn't have anything to do with Dany crucifying people, ordering torture, and creating death and destruction in Slaver's Bay. Really, how the hell are you comparing Dany to Brienne? I'm not even sure I could come up with a single cruel or malicious thing Brienne has done.

Last I checked, all the characters you mentioned (Brienne excepted, because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about with Brienne), have plenty of detractors. Can we stop with the generic cries of sexism against anyone who dislikes a female character?

[BabyMeraxes]

How unsurprising, don't like Dany = Sexist!

I like Catelyn, Asha, and Cersei does have her moments. But Dany is intolerable.

Nah, if you truly enjoy and are invested in those other female characters, than it's not an issue of sexism for you. I'm not saying all Dany hate is a result of gender prejudice, but I think a lot of it is. Mostly when it's thinly veiled, shitty logic that ignores the complexities of the character. It's easy to a have a knee-jerk reaction to anti-Dany=sexism that's like, "I'm a progressive, interesting person. I don't judge my literary figments on their genetic make-up, but on the content of their character," or "I'm a girl, so it's impossible for me to perpetuate sexism." But I think a good amount of people who read and enjoy fantasy and war novels see a beautiful young female, and automatically assume that she needs to be saved or loved or conquered. When that shit doesn't happen, the easiest thing to do is to get bored and dismiss her. Literarily speaking, Daenerys is a complex, vital component to this series. I give you free reign to hate her, because hating her means you know and appreciate her on some level. When you talk about being bored and skipping chapters, well, I tend to think something else is at work there. But, like I said, read these books however you want.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Yes. I, as a male, am a slut-shamer for criticizing Danaerys while liking Brienne. It couldn't have anything to do with Dany crucifying people, ordering torture, and creating death and destruction in Slaver's Bay. Really, how the hell are you comparing Dany to Brienne? I'm not even sure I could come up with a single cruel or malicious thing Brienne has done.

This exactly. I mean, I don't know how it is that difficult to understand that there are people who dislike Daenerys. It's not like she has been around being harmless. She has burned people alive, she has crucified random people, she has ordered torture... :dunno:

[butterbumps!]

Yea, all the "don't like Dany" = sexism is really senseless in my opinion.

I don't like her personality/ thought process at present, nor do I like her methods of ruling, but I will say that this is precisely what I find so interesting about her as a character. I think the fact that she's so divisive in reader's opinions is evidence of how interestingly she's drawn. Add me to the list of females who don't like Dany (and I can't think of another female save Cersei that I don't like). In fact, it's usually the male characters who boil my blood.

[Towel]

This exactly. I mean, I don't know how it is that difficult to understand that there are people who dislikes Daenerys. It's not like she has been around being harmless. She has burned people alive, she has crucified random people, she has ordered torture... :dunno:

YOU'RE BIASED!

[eyeheartsansa]

The only way for Dany to avoid intentionally or unentionally harming other human beings would have been to sell the dragon eggs, get a nice luxury condo in Pentos and find some spice merchant or pirate trophy boytoy/husband. And that would have been a sitcom, not a fantasy novel.

[jarl the climber]

This exactly. I mean, I don't know how it is that difficult to understand that there are people who dislike Daenerys. It's not like she has been around being harmless. She has burned people alive, she has crucified random people, she has ordered torture... :dunno:

She burned one person alive and she had it coming to her unless you count the people her dragons have fried :dunno: . She crucified some vicious slavers adn not at random, I beleive she let them choose which ones she would crucify, thagt was very benevolent. The torture thing is disturbing but that was tough call. Like Tyrion I consider her so called sluttiness as a point in her favor.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

YOU'RE BIASED!

Whatever floats your boat :rolleyes:

[Lykos]

@Towel

We all are. And I think your right Dany´s storyarc will bring her to a final conflict and conciliation with Jon/Starks. I still think GRRM will suprise us with it. Also I think he probably misjudged the reception of Dany by the readers.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

@Towel

We all are. And I think your right Dany´s storyarc will bring her to a final conflict and conciliation with Jon/Starks. I still think GRRM will suprise us with it. Also I think he probably misjudged the reception of Dany by the readers.

What do you mean?

[BabyMeraxes]

But listen, you guys are considering the character, you're taking the time to understand her, and then you're passing a judgment. YOUR dislike of Daenerys doesn't stem from sexism, but don't kid yourselves into thinking that it's not a real thing, either.

This exactly. I mean, I don't know how it is that difficult to understand that there are people who dislike Daenerys. It's not like she has been around being harmless. She has burned people alive, she has crucified random people, she has ordered torture... :dunno:

Yea, all the "don't like Dany" = sexism is really senseless in my opinion.

I don't like her personality/ thought process at present, nor do I like her methods of ruling, but I will say that this is precisely what I find so interesting about her as a character. I think the fact that she's so divisive in reader's opinions is evidence of how interestingly she's drawn. Add me to the list of females who don't like Dany (and I can't think of another female save Cersei that I don't like). In fact, it's usually the male characters who boil my blood.

@Val Let me holler at you for a second. No shade. I'm assuming that Val and the Wildlings are up there as far as your favorites are concerned. Wildlings are pretty notorious rapers, pillagers and murders. What justifies their deviant acts for you as opposed to Dany's? Seriously, no shade. I'm just curious.

[eyeheartsansa]

@Towel

We all are. And I think your right Dany´s storyarc will bring her to a final conflict and conciliation with Jon/Starks. I still think GRRM will suprise us with it. Also I think he probably misjudged the reception of Dany by the readers.

I don't think so. He loves to torment his readers by not letting his characters do what they want them to do. If he has any awareness at all of his readers' feelings about Dany, he is rubbing his hands together and grinning his wry, cat-like grin, saying "Excellent."

What is more likely is that he tries to ignore this, because it is time consuming, and he wouldn't want it to interfere with the story he's already planned out.