Daenerys the Cheater

[DornishKnight]

Thanks for proving the point :rolleyes:

What point was that? I was giving the board sample evidence to analyze.

[brashcandy]

I could agree with that. But where I love Catelyn for her intentions, consistency, strength, compassion, and attempts to flourish in a rather bleak situation.... I hate Daeny for all the same reasons.

In my opinion, (keeping this brief) her intentions are almost never just and stem from "I'm the Dragon, RAAR!"

She has no consistency.

Her strength is moderate, but where something acutally has to be done, it's another character having to do it for her.

She does show compassion where it's convenient.

She does ATTEMPT to flourish, but any success is due to the fact she fights idiotic flat characters.

I do think that she is an idiot for sleeping around. But that's not because it's a woman doing it. It's because what's right for her rule is to not sleep around, rather to arrange a powerful alliance, possibly through a (or even multiple (similar to Aegon the conqueror, but reversed)) marriage. I also thought Robert was an idiot for sleeping around, which I think everyone can agree to.

:bang: Dany has not been sleeping around. Stannis has been sleeping around, so has Tyrion, but when Dany slept with Daario she was a free woman. And what do you mean she attempts to flourish but only has to face "flat" characters? She's proven herself as a competent leader and her enemies have been pretty persistent in trying to bring her down. And she's not known for using her bodily strength - for the love of god she's a small girl. She uses her ingenuity and intelligence instead.

[BabyMeraxes]

To be fair, the Mary Sue thing bothers me as well (whether Dany or Jon).

Ugh. If I hear Mary Sue or Gary Stu one more fucking time I will vomit all over this computer and my co-workers. What the fuck does that even mean? BULLSHIT. That's what it means. Leave it to fan-fiction to be the god damn worst.

[eyeheartsansa]

Bella from Twlight = the queen of Mary Sues. It usually means the character is a lazily written standin for the author's hopes/dreams/wish fulfillment, and doesn't have any interesting flaws or challenges. Sadly, on this board it seems to mean 'character who does something I don't like.'

Dany = a wonderfully rendered complex character with a full set of conflicting desires and emotions that has inspired libraries full of fan discussion, debate and commentery.

I'd like to think that GRRM is light years ahead of any author who can be accused of writing mary sue protagonists. Maybe some readers have been so entrenched in the world of ASOIAF that you've forgotten just how bad some fiction can be.

(Apologies to any Twilight fans I may have offended)

[brashcandy]

What point was that? I was giving the board sample evidence to analyze.

Yes, thank you. I analysed it and found it filled with the same uncritical, typical sexist appreciation of the standard male. Again, thank you.

[Euphail]

:bang: Dany has not been sleeping around. Stannis has been sleeping around, so has Tyrion, but when Dany slept with Daario she was a free woman. And what do you mean she attempts to flourish but only has to face "flat" characters? She's proven herself as a competent leader and her enemies have been pretty persistent in trying to bring her down. And she's not known for using her bodily strength - for the love of god she's a small girl. She uses her ingenuity and intelligence instead.

I'm not a fan of Stannis at all, though suprisingly I didn't care much about him sleeping with Mel. Maybe it's because I hate his queen so much, and I don't think she brings much to the table. Would you consider his Queen to be a stereotypical female character though?

I also took the point of Tyrion's promiscuity to be his failing quality. He's clever, intuitive, and useful... but he whores around. and therein lies his weakness.

Perhaps "sleeping around" was the wrong term. My intent was to convey that she should not be sharing her bedroom with someone (especially her 'freed' slave) given the percieved consequences.

I always took from her character that she is doing the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time. She is forceful when she should try and be humble. She is humble when she should try and be forceful. She defers where she should lead. She leads where she should delegate.

Maybe I'm projecting too much of my "male" intuition onto a "female" character. But I've always just thought of her as a person first before a female. I simply find her infuriating.

Perhaps I only like characters that understand the reality of what their constraints are, and then work within those constraints to rid themselves of them. That's why I like Tyrion.

Edit: that's why I like tyrion

[eyeheartsansa]

I'd like to think that GRRM is light years ahead of any author who can be accused of writing mary sue protagonists.

hm.. with the possible exception of Jon Snow, whose life is basically an anime series.

[jarl the climber]

I think that they not just somewhat misogynistic, they are misogynistic! When you relate, like and sympathise only with characters who have what would be called ''manly'' qualities, e.g. being skilled at fighting, brave, not caring about clothes or their general appearance, not complaining ever about pain or anything in general because they are ''manly'' enough to handle it, yes you are misogynistic.

The term ''manly'' is sexist, since it opposes female (''womanly'', is it a word?), the former term referring to positive attributes that should be emulated and the later to attributes that should be avoided. If a woman has ''manly'' traits she is cool and awesome (''she has balls'' a phrase that proves the innate sexism in our language and society, in my opinion). If a man is effeminate (womanly?) he deserves our scorn. Sometimes if a woman is effeminate ( acts according to her gender role), it is considered negative.

A man can be called a ''di##'' or a ''cu##t'', as can a woman derogatively.

But a man could never be said to have a vag##a'' meaning praise!

Wasn't there an episode of Friends where a woman praises Joey by infering that he has an inate understanding of being a woman.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Asha and Arya have masculine qualities. If someone hates ALL of the feminine female characters and only likes female characters who have male characteristics, then I believe they're probably somewhat misogynistic.

By equating some characteristics to "females" and some to "males," you yourself are exhibiting sexism, I hope you realize. The fact that you equate strength, willingness to fight physically and bucking of social mores (Asha and Arya's characters) with "masculine qualities" seems to imply that you equate weakness and docility with "feminine qualities." And yes, that is sexist. And for the record, I like Asha and Arya and Catelyn and Sansa. I don't know how many times or ways I can prove that Dany's gender or femininity has nothing to do with why I despise her.

The OP kind of jumped the shark, but as a lot of us have said over and over, there is plenty of reason to dislike Dany or at least be wary of her.

People say MMD deserved to be burned alive. Uh, for what, exactly? It's Drogo's own idiot fault he ignored her advice and let his wound get infected. It's not MMD's fault that Dany agreed to use blood magic to save her pillaging rapist husband. It's not MMD's fault that Jorah took Dany in the tent when MMD said, "Don't come in the tent." So what is MMD's crime that she deserved what Dany did to her?

I've already spoken at length about how distasteful I find Dany's other "activities." She's also a flaming (no pun intended) hypocrite for bitching about her right to Westeros when telling a woman whose house was abandoned that sorry she's shit out of luck.

As far as the awful things that other people (Tyrion, Victarion, Bolton, whoever) have done in the series, the last time I checked, none of those people were being sold as the savior/messiah figure. I don't see it as gender unfairness so much as it is holding Dany to a higher standard because we're expected to believe that she's in the running to be the Westerosi Jesus. Jesus was crucified, he didn't crucify.

This is someone who burns people alive, crucifies them to prove that crucifying is wrong, orders repeated torture out of spite and frustration, blabbermouths strategy to enemies she's too dense to recognize right in front of her, eats good food while her people starve and allows herself to personally profit from the slave trade that she supposedly detests. And people think she's going to save the world!

[Addam of Hull]

I'm not a fan of Stannis at all, though suprisingly I didn't care much about him sleeping with Mel. Maybe it's because I hate his queen so much, and I don't think she brings much to the table. Would you consider his Queen to be a stereotypical female character though?

I also took the point of Tyrion's promiscuity to be his failing quality. He's clever, intuitive, and useful... but he whores around. and therein lies his weakness.

Perhaps "sleeping around" was the wrong term. My intent was to convey that she should not be sharing her bedroom with someone (especially her 'freed' slave) given the percieved consequences.

I always took from her character that she is doing the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time. She is forceful when she should try and be humble. She is humble when she should try and be forceful. She defers where she should lead. She leads where she should delegate.

Maybe I'm projecting too much of my "male" intuition onto a "female" character. But I've always just thought of her as a person first before a female. I simply find her infuriating.

Perhaps I only like characters that understand the reality of what their constraints are, and then work within those constraints to rid themselves of them. That's why I like Tyrion.

Edit: that's why I like tyrion

The problem with that is that you can never look at a person or character and magically not consider their gender or culture. Even if it's not a conscious thing, subconsciously, we recognize that and have certain expectations set. Actually, it's probably more problematic to read Dany without regards to her gender and sex than it is to read her with regards to it. Because when we acknowledge that this character is female, it becomes easier to keep that in mind as we read them and also to observe how we react differently to characters based on their gender. Our society is misogynistic and therefore, we as people, tend to have ingrained misogyny. Nobody reads someone like Sansa and thinks, "Grrrr, this is a woman and therefore I hate her!!!" Or, at least, most people don't. But our expectations do cause that - i.e., Daenerys is a "slut" for sleeping with Daario, but it's okay for Jon to sleep with Ygritte and Tyrion to whore around. What tends to be more telling isn't an individual's reaction to a specific character, but fandom at large's reaction. And this isn't limited to ASOIAF - by and large, pretty much every fandom out there is equally guilty in differing ways.

[hombay]

I'm not a fan of Stannis at all, though suprisingly I didn't care much about him sleeping with Mel. Maybe it's because I hate his queen so much, and I don't think she brings much to the table. Would you consider his Queen to be a stereotypical female character though?

I also took the point of Tyrion's promiscuity to be his failing quality. He's clever, intuitive, and useful... but he whores around. and therein lies his weakness.

Perhaps "sleeping around" was the wrong term. My intent was to convey that she should not be sharing her bedroom with someone (especially her 'freed' slave) given the percieved consequences.

I always took from her character that she is doing the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time. She is forceful when she should try and be humble. She is humble when she should try and be forceful. She defers where she should lead. She leads where she should delegate.

Maybe I'm projecting too much of my "male" intuition onto a "female" character. But I've always just thought of her as a person first before a female. I simply find her infuriating.

Perhaps I only like characters that understand the reality of what their constraints are, and then work within those constraints to rid themselves of them. That's why I like Tyrion.

Edit: that's why I like tyrion

Well, then you hate her for a reason: you don't like her as a character. In that case it cannot be said that she is poorly written/Mary Sue/shit. Ofcourse, I don't know if you've done this, I'm just saying.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

@Val Let me holler at you for a second. No shade. I'm assuming that Val and the Wildlings are up there as far as your favorites are concerned. Wildlings are pretty notorious rapers, pillagers and murders. What justifies their deviant acts for you as opposed to Dany's? Seriously, no shade. I'm just curious.

Sure, sorry I had to leave before and haven't seen your question. Well, I'm certainly a fan of Val (it's obvious :D) but I tend to not like people as a whole but as individuals. I know some wildlings are rapers, murderers, etc...and I also know there are a lot of prejudice against them because for a long time they have been considered the major threat especially to the North. Yes, there are bad people amongst them, but we also have Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Bolton and Vargo Hoat and friends, and that doesnt mean that everyone is evil south of the Wall. So sure I like some wildlings and I dislike some wildlings too. I actually consider Mance a pretty decent man and an awesome King to his people, but I don't like other assholes like Rattleshirt or Varamyr Sixskins and I will never justify their actions just because they are wildlings. As Jon recalls in ADWD:

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. “Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you.”

I think she is a wise woman ^_^ But anyway, the point is, the situation of the wildlings and Daenerys cannot be compared. We are not supposed to like the wildlings (at first at least) since as I said they are sold like the biggest threat (even the Watch, before Jon thought so) and she is presented like some kind of "savior" and I just don't see her like that :dunno:

p.s. is it me or is the board working awfully bad for you too, guys? I can barely post, it has taken more than 15 minutes to post this, ugh!

[PatrickStormborn]

By equating some characteristics to "females" and some to "males," you yourself are exhibiting sexism, I hope you realize. The fact that you equate strength, willingness to fight physically and bucking of social mores (Asha and Arya's characters) with "masculine qualities" seems to imply that you equate weakness and docility with "feminine qualities." And yes, that is sexist. And for the record, I like Asha and Arya and Catelyn and Sansa. I don't know how many times or ways I can prove that Dany's gender or femininity has nothing to do with why I despise her.

In Westeros, those are stereotypical male qualities, hence why I used the word "male". Women are rarely allowed to train with swords in Westeros. Even today, in Western 21st Century societies, they are still mostly masculine stereotypes -- although not MALE stereotypes. Asha and Arya challenge these Westerosi perceptions, which is fantastic and completely admirable. For the record, I love Asha, Arya, Catelyn, Sansa and Daenerys.

As I've said in many of my posts, no one is saying that everyone who hates Dany hates her for misogynistic reasons.

[BabyMeraxes]

And people think she's going to save the world!

What will you do if she does?

[eyeheartsansa]

FTR Stannis most certainly IS being touted as Ashor Ahai... because Mel says he is, and because his sword was all glowy.

A reminder - I am stating the obvious here, but it bears repeating that Dany is being hailed as a powerful figure (the AA may not have been applied to her but many readers have inferred this) not because she is wise and virtuous, but because she hatched freaking dragons and can't be burned alive. This happened four books ago, but it is still a unique, magical event with magicky magical ripple effects that we may not have even seen yet.

It is the dragons, not any supposed notion of inherent 'goodness,' not some prophecy and not even her bloodline, that give her a sense of destiny and purpose.

[BabyMeraxes]

@Val Good answer. And yes, the boards have been terrible all day. I thought it was just a slow work server, but now I know better.

[brashcandy]

I'm not a fan of Stannis at all, though suprisingly I didn't care much about him sleeping with Mel. Maybe it's because I hate his queen so much, and I don't think she brings much to the table. Would you consider his Queen to be a stereotypical female character though?

I also took the point of Tyrion's promiscuity to be his failing quality. He's clever, intuitive, and useful... but he whores around. and therein lies his weakness.

Perhaps "sleeping around" was the wrong term. My intent was to convey that she should not be sharing her bedroom with someone (especially her 'freed' slave) given the percieved consequences.

I always took from her character that she is doing the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time. She is forceful when she should try and be humble. She is humble when she should try and be forceful. She defers where she should lead. She leads where she should delegate.

Maybe I'm projecting too much of my "male" intuition onto a "female" character. But I've always just thought of her as a person first before a female. I simply find her infuriating.

Perhaps I only like characters that understand the reality of what their constraints are, and then work within those constraints to rid themselves of them. That's why I like Tyrion.

Edit: that's why I like tyrion

Forgive me, but I must have been misreading Tyrion's character this entire time. When has Tyrion ever faced the reality of the constraints around him and worked within those constraints to rid himself of them? He's born a dwarf into a wealthy, powerful family. He's given the position of acting Hand where he's able to amass a great deal of power and wields it accordingly. When his father comes to town he's stripped as Hand, but given another influential post as Master of Coin, and although he's told he can't get Casterly Rock, his daddy arranges for him to marry Sansa and get Winterfell. Tyrion may have put his wit and intelligence to work, but everything he's ever achieved has been handed to him because of his family name. The only constraints Tyrion seems to focus on are the ones that prevent women from coming willingly to his bed.

[Euphail]

What will you do if she does?

Find reasons that a man really did all the work... what else? :cheers: Goodwork lads! We saved the world...

I think Apple's point was that if she is intended to be the "savior" of the world, given the evidence of her past actions, the world had better hang on for a rocky go of it.

[Euphail]

Forgive me, but I must have misreading Tyrion's character this entire time. When has Tyrion ever faced the reality of the constraints around him and worked within those constraints to rid himself of them? He's born a dwarf into a wealthy, powerful family. He's given the position of acting Hand where he's able to amass a great deal of power and wields it accordingly. When his father comes to town he's stripped as Hand, but given another influential post as Master of Coin, and although he's told he can't get Casterly Rock, his daddy arranges for him to marry Sansa and get Winterfell. Tyrion may have put his wit and intelligence to work, but everything he's ever achieved has been handed to him because of his family name. The only constraints Tyrion seems to focus on are the ones that prevent women from coming willingly to his bed.

I disagree with your read, but I accept your rational for it. And as an added bonus, I won't chalk up your read to sexism.

[TheCheesecakeMassacre]

Someone on here once brilliantly pointed out that by her own ruling, Dany has no claim to Westeros. During the taking of Meereen a women fled her house only to find some hores had taken it over. Dany ruled that the women had fled and thus lost her right to the house. Despite the women having done the same thing as her family, by her logic she should have no claim to the Iron Throne.