Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

Recommended Posts

Oh man, do I feel like a :dunce: . Why didn't I realize that? <_<

Thanks, brash. I'll check it out. :)

I'll save you the time and just PM you the link! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice post Queen of winter, good to see we're now three wanting to dance! :drunk:

I wanted to tell you though, that there is a mistake in your quotes:

Death and desire are entangled in Sansa’s dreams that night, and it’s no wonder that when she wakes her first thought upon seeing the old dog is to wish for Lady

I never wrote that, I wish I did though! Just telling you this because I don’t want to take someone else’s credit! (I’m not a liar like Littlefinger :lol: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Maroucia

Ooops! Thanks for pointing out my mistake, which has been fixed. It was brash's quote. :blush:

And yes, we can now start our own little dance troupe! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just finishing a fairly long post when the darn screen flashed, booting me out of, then back into, the Forum, with my post totally lost. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to add my views on Sandor’s parallel with the old dog from the Fingers.

Even though I totally agree that this dog is meant to represent Sandor (he is even referred to as the old hound, I know it’s not an uncommon way to call dogs, but still!), I don’t think we can link the uselessness of the dog to Sandor having lost his marital skills.

Ok, Sandor MAY be lame (myself, I believe it’s a temporary state), but even if he is, he is still a really strong man. He still could kill most of the men he would get into fights with; remember, most people in Westeros weren’t trained to use swords, so he has an advantage on the average Westerosi to start with. If he travels in the roads, he’ll be able to defend himself (and someone else, if needed :leer: ) from the common thieves with no problems. And then, Sandor is also a quick thinker when it comes to battles (remember how he pushed the bench on the Thickler in the Crossroads inn), so he can still get into a fight with knights and win. Of course, he would not be as fast as he used to, but this wouldn’t minimize his badassness at all.

Watch out knights of the Seven Kingdoms, Sandor Clegane is coming back to kick your asses!!! :cool4:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aaahh! I couldn’t get access to Westeros for over an hour! Oh well…

What a struck of luck for LF that at least one of Cat’s daughters looked like her! I guess you’re right about him wanting her ever since he first saw Sansa, Brash. Maybe before this he had the hope that Ned and cat wouldn’t get along and he may still stand a chance with cat in some future, but once he saw in his brothel that they were very much in love, Sansa came into the picture. I am convinced with every passing page of this thread that LF is, as I think Varys once said, only in love with LF. He wants to in a way prove to himself that he beat Hosteer Tully & all the other rich lords believes that a man from low origins could end up being just as high as them. If it weren’t for harry the heir, Tyrion, and Edmund Tully’s future child with the Frey girl, I would be shocked if LF didn’t just forced Sansa to marry him so he could own half the world: from the vale to Winterfell, to Riverrun and Harrenhal- the man has no limits! I’m sure this won’t come to happen since there are too many if’s in here, but still, when I first read the first book I thought he did indeed love Cat, so I could sympathize (just a little) with some of his decisions, but now…

But yes, Maroucia mentioned some good points for Sansa to stay in the Fingers and live happily ever after with Sandor. This makes me wonder which future I would prefer for Sansa: to be a powerful (yet good) queen, married to Tyrion or someone else, but keeping Sandor as a lover- over Sansa giving up the game of thrones to live happily ever after with the man she wants to. I guess the best choice here would be the one that would be in between: Sansa being lady of Winterfell or lady of Clegane’s keep, having her and Sandor’s pardoned for their supposed crimes, and living in peace with occasional visits to court..?

But you're right about Sandor still being a grand fighter, regardless of his leg injury! i think he will one day probably meet with UnGregor and finish him off, so he needs to have his fighting skills at his best: which basically means me wanting him to get out of the QI pronto so he can go rescue a certain little bird that happens to be near where he finds himself at present ;)

QoW again, I hadn’t read your comments regarding the Greek gods when I posted my previous comment, but I wanted to let you know that I really liked the one where (sorry, I can’t recall all the names) the goddess is married and yet has a lover and they are later discovered by her husband, and she also gives birth to a about 4 children with her lover.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I might be one of the very few who wouldn't mind if Sansa offed LF, it would show she moved on to be a player, I much rather though that she orchestrate a great ponzi scheme on him ( and Cersi) to bring their down fall but I have no qualms if she uses her hair net to do him in.

As far as Sansa staying in the fingers, she's too much her father ( but hopefully learning politics) she's going to help bring the Stark resurgence back and hopefully rebuild Winterfell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just finishing a fairly long post when the darn screen flashed, booting me out of, then back into, the Forum, with my post totally lost. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

:( A lost post by you is a terrible thing Raksha. Rewrite as best as you can...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Maroucia, I totally agree that Sandor is not like the old blind dog in terms of physical ability. The real Sandor would have broken Marillion's leg if the man had dared to kick out at him. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I might be one of the very few who wouldn't mind if Sansa offed LF, it would show she moved on to be a player, I much rather though that she orchestrate a great ponzi scheme on him ( and Cersi) to bring their down fall but I have no qualms if she uses her hair net to do him in.

As far as Sansa staying in the fingers, she's too much her father ( but hopefully learning politics) she's going to help bring the Stark resurgence back and hopefully rebuild Winterfell.

Sansa (and Sandor :leer:) would not stay FOREVER in the Fingers, but could live there for a time. It would be the perfect place to stay under the radar while planning her revenge on her enemies and her imminent return to Winterfell!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grail King said:

Posted Today, 09:23 PM

I might be one of the very few who wouldn't mind if Sansa offed LF, it would show she moved on to be a player, I much rather though that she orchestrate a great ponzi scheme on him ( and Cersi) to bring their down fall but I have no qualms if she uses her hair net to do him in.

As far as Sansa staying in the fingers, she's too much her father ( but hopefully learning politics) she's going to help bring the Stark resurgence back and hopefully rebuild Winterfell.

Gosh, if I were LF, I'd not let Sansa anywhere near my food so long as she had that hairnet! But doesn't he have her bring him wine and such? Since we're talking Ancient Greeks here, I'm looking around for a chorus chanting about hubris!

(@QOW: great Persephone analogy. :) Unlike Persephone, Sansa refuses the seeds, so does that mean she won't be trapped in the Underworld Eyrie?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa (and Sandor :leer:) would not stay FOREVER in the Fingers, but could live there for a time. It would be the perfect place to stay under the radar while planning her revenge on her enemies and her imminent return to Winterfell!

I'm actually not totally convinced that the Fingers is the best hiding-place for Sansa. I'm actually surprised that no one has put together Littlefinger's definite interest in Sansa (In ADWD, Cersei remembers him asking for the girl's hand in marriage shortly after Ned died, I believe) with LF's absence from King's Landing the night of Joffrey's death and Sansa's disappearance (and Ser Dontos' disappearance too). If I were Cersei, and wanted Sansa brought to 'justice', I'd have dispatched spies to the Eyrie, remembering that Sansa's aunt ruled there, on the chance that Sansa might seek Lysa's protection; also have the spies find out whether LF was in the Eyrie or Vale during the time of Joffrey's death or the day before or after. For good measure, I'd send agents to LF's own holding on the Fingers and find out if and when LF turned up there, and who he had with him. I'm actually surprised that Varys hasn't done so already.

In the chapters we just reread, Sansa is definitely hoping for peace and quiet - this Sansa might be content to live on the Fingers or Casa Clegane with Sandor for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure about future-Sansa, though; she might feel she needs more protection, i.e. a larger fortress, more guards and loyal retainers/vassals, so what happened to her as a child in King's Landing and a girl in the Eyrie, would never happen again. I don't see her becoming paranoid; and I do see adult Sansa realizing that knowledge of the world as it works is also a good defense. But she might want more protection than a lame Hound and a few guardsmen.

I think what older-Sansa will want most of all is a family, or a purpose, that will be hers alone, that could bring her happiness, not just because of her connections to power and land. I do think she wants and needs people to love, people who will be loyal to her and hopefully love her for herself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Raksha,

I've always suspected that Varys knows or has a good idea where Sansa is hiding, but simply hasn't deemed it necessary to clue the Lannisters in on this. Now with Aegon's return, and Dany's unavailability, he might think it's the perfect time to make contact with the Vale seeking a marriage alliance.

As for the others, it isn't surprising to me that no one has figured out Sansa's whereabouts in the Eyrie or at the Fingers. For one thing, we have to give LF credit. He has portrayed himself as being completely loyal to the Lannisters with only Tyrion suspecting otherwise, and he's done his best to make sure that Tyrion is silenced forever. The Lannisters simply cannot appreciate the scale of LF's ambition and their arrogance blinds them to the possibility that he could be double crossing them. The Fingers doesn't appear to be a place that people are in a hurry to return to after they leave either. It may be known that LF is from there, but again why would anyone think he would be aiding and abetting Sansa. As far as they know, he's been in the Eyrie the whole time, wooing Lysa Tully. There's very little to attract pirates or raiders to the islands, and the people who live there seem completely cut off from what is happening in mainland Westeros.

The hermit's cave on the island also seems like another good hiding spot...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great work brash! :thumbsup:

Right so, one of my favourite chapters and a huge info dump one, too :) I thought I'd split this in two since it relates to two rather different topics.

Littlefinger and his ambitions for Sansa:

Littlefinger clearly demonstrates here that he is playing the game for one thing only: his own advancement. If he had one scrap of human decency, he would feel empathy with Sansa for having lost her father, being estranged from her family and mistreated in Kings Landing. Yet he does not. Sure, he is all nice and comforting, but only so far as keeping it within his own agenda and to push Sansa deeper into trusting him. Especially this line struck me as being extremely callous and downright malicious: "Winterfell has been taken, burned and sacked. All those you knew and loved are dead."

Even though Sansa kind of puts her trust in him, I think she got burnt enough from Kings Landing to know not to trust him completely. Especially when she thinks

You said it was my mother you loved.

Sansa has already showed that she is re-evaluating how she is viewing family, loyalty and loved ones and I think without knowing it, LF is shooting himself in the foot here. Sansa might play at being Alayne, but underneath it, she is a Stark and she grew up with strong family ties and has learnt the hard way the value of family and loved ones. At the present, she may suppress that part of her personality, but it's not gone, far from it.

It's also worth noting how Sansa reacts to LF being callous about Winterfell and everything and everyone she loved, compared to when the Hound was callous and rude about Ned dying. Sandor she challenged directly which more or less ended up with him being embarrassed, with LF she just internalises and doesn't tell him her true feelings. This is running like a theme through Sansa's chapters in the Vale. She suppresses a lot of her true feelings with regards to LF and his machinations, or she thinks them, but doesn't tell him.

LF also tells her that she needs to know what a man wants in order to move him, and she's already figured out part of what Lord Baelish wants. He wants her not only as his little Lady Love/daughter surrogate, but also as his mini-me. He wants her to both be his pawn and a player, he wants her to admire his cleverness and play along in his schemes. On some level, Sansa has already realised this and she plays along with him, doing her best to figure out what he wants her to do to please him. It's quite different from how she interacts with Sandor (honesty, challenge of beliefs, compassion) or with Tyrion (courtesy or complete stonewalling). I rather like that she is going to learn a lot scheming and cunning from LF, but the man is selfish scum. I had completely missed that he'd offered Cersei to marry Sansa after Ned died. I bet he did, the creep. :ack: I also bet Sansa would not still have her maidenhead intact if he'd put his filthy hands on her. Bleah.

@Raksha,

I've always suspected that Varys knows or has a good idea where Sansa is hiding, but simply hasn't deemed it necessary to clue the Lannisters in on this. Now with Aegon's return, and Dany's unavailability, he might think it's the perfect time to make contact with the Vale seeking a marriage alliance.

I'm not so sure Varys knows. Besides, I was under the impression that everyone thought LF was in the Vale at the time, and that people are baffled by the role Dontos played as both Sansa and Dontos are just gone, almost as if by magic. The meetings also took place in the Goodswood, which means it was outside Varys' domain and he doesn't know about it. I think on this one occasion, LF outplayed Varys, since Varys is clever, but he is not omniscient.

Everyone is out looking for a fool-knight and a maiden with auburn hair, but Sansa is currently without Dontos and with the wrong hair colour. Sure, Varys's hedge knight has reached her, but Sansa doesn't even look like Sansa, and certainly doesn't act anything else than Alayne Stone. I think it will take a while longer for Varys to figure this one out. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second part: commentary on Sansa's personal feelings about marriage, family, love, or lack thereof.

Firstly, Sansa mentions her claim to Winterfell twice in this chapter, and both times she rues that she has it. She clearly no longer wishes to be a princess or to marry some highborn lord, since she has seen that a claim to land and a castle means she is little more than a piece of meat to be bartered with. I honestly think Ned wanted his children to at least have a say in whom they married, since he seems to be a person who completely lacks ambition when it comes to the Game of Thrones and wants them happy in life (hence his comment about finding Sansa someone brave, gentle and strong). He was happy at Winterfell with his wife and his family, and I think what we are seeing here is that Sansa may look like Cat, but in many ways she is very much Ned's daughter, too.

Secondly, we see that she's starting to value other things than pretty looks and she no longer takes things at face value. She notices Lothor Brune's plain looks and bad fashion sense ( :lol: ) but still notices that he's stronger than he looks. What is a knight or a sworn sword who only looks pretty? Not of much value. Later on her saves her from Marillion and she mistakes him for Sandor, which again indicates that she's putting value on other things than flair and pretty clothing. Loyalty, strength, human decency and honesty have very little to do with pretty court life.

Thirdly, Sansa is disappointed by Lysa, but covers well. She had hoped for family, yet found only more people who thinks of her only as a claim to Winterfell. The fact that she lies so easily is telling, I think. Sansa is used to playing a part now. Further, it reinforces that she wants something else from life than being married to someone she cannot love. In that case, she prefers never to be married at all, which is quite a difference to the Sansa of AGOT and even the Sansa of earlier ASOS who thought a marriage to Willas could save her. She's starting to realise that getting attached to some random man is not going to help her and is not going to automatically make her life better. (This topic is later brought up by Mya as well.)

The song parallel:

Three things in this chapter I always thought were linked together with regards to songs and singing, and in the same context:

PART V Lysa’s screams and moans of pleasure are soon heard throughout the little tower and gradually the atmosphere becomes sexually charged, with knights and maids kissing in the corners. Sansa goes outside, and her thoughts revolve around her wedding night and Sandor Clegane: These thoughts on Tyrion vs Sandor reveal which man Sansa places more faith and trust in. Tyrion’s attempts on the wedding night to deceive her into bed are viewed through the unrelenting insight of Sandor Clegane: “a dog can smell a lie.” It’s a curious juxtaposition to say the least, but one that perhaps explains itself given Sansa’s dream later on.

:agree:

We have Lysa screaming out her pleasure as loud as she can, almost as a chant, random knights and maids making out, and Sansa is then accosted by Marillion, who says:

"Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I'll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa".

Then later on, during the dream of first Joffrey turning into Robb, and Tyrion on her wedding night with his eyes devouring her turning into Sandor, we have:

Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you", he rasped.

At the Battle of the Blackwater, the song Sansa sang was definitely chaste and more spiritual in nature, but this bit in her head is anything but chaste. Especially considering Marillion's previous comment about having her "sing louder than the Lady Lysa". She seems to have a specific object in mind to sing for, too; or as it is phrased, "I'll have a song from you", meaning she thinks this person will want to make her sing for him.

When she wakes she hugs the dog wishing he was Lady, making me think she feels lonely and probably quite a bit WTH was that? Considering that she mistook Lothor Brune for Sandor just earlier seems to indicate she sees Sandor's presence as something largely positive and something she misses, plus we also have the interesting pointed commentary regarding Sandor vs Tyrion: "he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be". The "right to be" bit always intrigued me, since it seems to indicate a forbidding attitude to Tyrion, that he fails in comparison to the other person or that Tyrion tried to aspire to be someone Sansa really fancies. It's also worth noting that Sansa doesn't name Sandor in her dream. We readers recognise him easily, but while Robb, Joffrey and Tyrion get their proper names, he does not, as if it as of yet not clearly defined and not yet coherent in her mind, which would make sense. She's still very young, too, but give her 2 more years and some time with Myranda Royce, and who knows what else might evolve in this girl's mind. It's definitely not going to be a chaste song to the Mother. :lol:

EDIT: It may also be worthwhile to consider the original lines when the "I'll have a song from you" came up, when Sandor tells Sansa he'll have a song from her one day whether she wants it or not, and she says she'll sing to him gladly, and his reply is along the lines of "Yeah right" *roll eyes*

In the light of Sansa's later chapters, it looks like she will, indeed, go to him of her own accord, while he will be the one who has a hard time accepting that she chooses him voluntarily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Outstanding summaries and analyses by Brashcandy and Lyanna!

Littlefinger certainly wastes no time in shocking Sansa through his murder of Dontos and then taking her away through rough weather on his ship. He also verbally 'divorces' Sansa from her husband, Tyrion, another man who at least showed her some kindness, by telling Sansa how Tyrion threw his first wife into a gang-rape and implying that he would eventually do the same or worse to Sansa herself. This is cruel, not only to poor Ser Dontos (he could have spared him and brought him to the Fingers and kept him under house arrest or something); but to Sansa, LF is isolating her physically and emotionally from the current influential males in her life (that he knows of, at least). LF wants Sansa to be totally dependent on him; hence his framing her as well as her husband for a king's murder, and denigrating as well as murdering poor Dontos, who at least got Sansa out of the Red Keep.

LF reiterates his 'life is not a song' theme to Sansa, who is rather anguished after learning that Dontos helped her for money and booze (that was not the only reason, Dontos wanted to feel self-respect again, wanted to act as a knight again; but I'm not sure that Sansa realizes it after LF is through with his post-murder verbal hatchet job). It's interesting that Sansa used her love of songs and stories as inspiration to overcome her fear and climb down the wall - faith in songs and the tales of honor and courage they hold is central to Sansa's character; I hope she never completely gives that up, or at least holds it in her heart while understanding that she must also use practical skills to survive.

The state of Casa-Baelish-on-the-Fingers and its people is indicative of LF's priorities. Petyr Baelish has become a man of great wealth and influence, but has done nothing to improve the state of his ancestral home or the men and women who serve it and him. Everything is disheveled and shabby, including the servants. Why couldn't he have sent back some coin for their upkeep, so that there would have been more guards (as he evidently promised) and perhaps medical help for the stye in the eye of Kella's child? Sansa, who grew up in a castle where the servants were valued and treated with dignity and given decent clothing and housing, must see some shortcomings there.

I loved Sansa's interlude with the old blind dog. It may or may not be a metaphor for a future with Sandor; but it did show that Sansa feels compassion for an old, discarded creature and treats it with love, and earns its loyalty.

I liked Sansa's request, when LF was changing her identity into that of his long-lost bastard daughter, that she call herself Catelyn - Sansa did not easily give up her public connection with her dead parents. Her desire to use her mother's name is also rather chilling when one thinks of Littlefinger's apparent desire to turn Sansa into a young Catelyn and rewrite their story.

Sansa is definitely growing up, the hard way. She has gone through a rather breathless and forced metamorphasis from Lady Sansa Stark-Lannister into the bastard girl Alayne Stone, accepted it gracefully and made herself adapt quickly to her new role, while continuing to observe what goes on around her.

I don't have ASOS handy. Didn't Lysa, when presented with her niece, say something about the Starks being too proud and that Sansa should humble herself and be a humble, obedient wife to little Robert? That really rankled, because Sansa is a proud young lady and has had to swallow that pride too often already while at other times, pride is the only thing that kept her going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I might be one of the very few who wouldn't mind if Sansa offed LF, it would show she moved on to be a player, I much rather though that she orchestrate a great ponzi scheme on him ( and Cersi) to bring their down fall but I have no qualms if she uses her hair net to do him in. As far as Sansa staying in the fingers, she's too much her father ( but hopefully learning politics) she's going to help bring the Stark resurgence back and hopefully rebuild Winterfell.

I would be more in favour of Sansa figuring out a way to expose him, without getting herself killed, and then using the judicial process to have him executed.

Considering the nature of the medieval judicial process (especially if one was not a member of the elite or clergy), I am wishing an awesomely sadistic and painful death on Littlefinger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have ASOS handy. Didn't Lysa, when presented with her niece, say something about the Starks being too proud and that Sansa should humble herself and be a humble, obedient wife to little Robert? That really rankled, because Sansa is a proud young lady and has had to swallow that pride too often already while at other times, pride is the only thing that kept her going.

Yes, she does. It's fairly clear that Sansa isn't all too happy with how Lysa is treating her even before Lysa comes out with this gem:

"You are well born, and the Starks of Winterfell were always proud, but Winterfell has fallen and you are really just a beggar now, so put that pride aside. Gratitude will better become you, in your present circumstances. Yes, and obedience. My son will have a grateful and obedient wife"

So much for Lysa's love for family and the whole schtick with "we are two women alone now" :ack:

Strangely, Lysa here reminds me of Joffrey and what the Hound told Sansa that Joffrey wants of her. Which of course is not anywhere near what Sansa wants for herself.

I would be more in favour of Sansa figuring out a way to expose him, without getting herself killed, and then using the judicial process to have him executed.

Considering the nature of the medieval judicial process (especially if one was not a member of the elite or clergy), I am wishing an awesomely sadistic and painful death on Littlefinger.

I actually wouldn't mind her going down a darker more ruthless path for a little while, if nothing else it will help her figure out where her boundaries are and how her own moral compass works in difficult and violent situations. Plus if she's going to end up hanging out with people like her sister Arya, Sandor Clegane etc. she needs to have a pretty good understanding of the darker side of things. She's already started out on that path in late AFFC, but more about that when those chapters come up. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't have ASOS handy. Didn't Lysa, when presented with her niece, say something about the Starks being too proud and that Sansa should humble herself and be a humble, obedient wife to little Robert? That really rankled, because Sansa is a proud young lady and has had to swallow that pride too often already while at other times, pride is the only thing that kept her going.

She did indeed Raksha! :

"You are well born, and the Starks of Winterfell were always proud, but Winterfell has fallen and you are really just a beggar now, so put that pride aside. Gratitude will better become you, in your present circumstances. Yes, and obedience. My son will have a grateful and obedient wife.”

Notice the part about the "obedient wife" popping up again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Notice the part about the "obedient wife" popping up again.

Makes me hope even more that Sansa will either marry someone "unsuitable", or that she'll be a really disobedient wife like a big FU to everyone who has tried to force her in her past! :lol:

Or that if she ends up marrying, it will be because she thinks it's a good idea, and it will be someone who will accept her as an equal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×