Why Jon Snow is NOT A TARGARYEN!

[Richard Rivers]

Also goes for the argument the three KG had to be protecting the true king. Barristan is a perfect example, he quits/get fired and says he going to join the true king. Which means in his mind deep down he felt that Robert and the Joff were not true kings, but he still served them as if they were. And he is meant to be a pillar of noblity in the books.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I also feel that Ned is not flat out completely honorable, i.e. if R+L=J is true, he never told his wife or anyone else, Robert, the kids. Which yes, keeps a promise to his sister which is noble and saves Jon from harm which is noble too, but at the cost of lieing or concealing the truth from others. Whether it is justified or not, is not my issue, it is that his honor cannot be used as a 100% reason why he never told anyone. This does not question the R+L=J, it more goes to Ned, one can't said Ned never told anyone because he is honorable, while exercising honor in one aspect he is dishonorable in another.

What choice did the honorable Ned Stark have? :unsure:

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Also goes for the argument the three KG had to be protecting the true king. Barristan is a perfect example, he quits/get fired and says he going to join the true king. Which means in his mind deep down he felt that Robert and the Joff were not true kings, but he still served them as if they were. And he is meant to be a pillar of noblity in the books.

According to the law Robert was the TRUE king, and according to the law of succession, so was Joffery... regardless of Barristan's personal feelings of disapproval. And had not he been fired Barristan would have continued to serve Joffery out of respect for his vows. Just saying... :)

[Richard Rivers]

What choice did the honorable Ned Stark have? :unsure:

I agree it may have been an extremely hard decision, but one that he made. He may have even made the right decision to conceal Jon. But it doesn't mean that he did so without cost to his honor.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, but Ned thinks about that himself and eeven talks to Arya about how lying might sometimes be the honourable thing to do.

[ShadowRaven]

It doesn't add up:

Ned could have at least told Catelyn if it really was true that R+L=J...........Catelyn is all about family, duty and honour, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't tell a soul.......I'm also keen on believing that Jon is Ned's son, just the mother is a big mystery.

[Richard Rivers]

Yes, but Ned thinks about that himself and eeven talks to Arya about how lying might sometimes be the honourable thing to do.

Awesome point, in that it shows what Ned thinks is honorable. Honor in lying to protect.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I agree it may have been an extremely hard decision, but one that he made. He may have even made the right decision to conceal Jon. But it doesn't mean that he did so without cost to his honor.

I see your point. I just feel that it was an impossible situation for him, and it ate away at him until his dying day. I guess, IMO to make a choice to protect someone you love over your personal honor is the most honorable thing a person can do.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

It doesn't add up:

Ned could have at least told Catelyn if it really was true that R+L=J...........Catelyn is all about family, duty and honour, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't tell a soul.......I'm also keen on believing that Jon is Ned's son, just the mother is a big mystery.

If, Lyanna made him promise not to tell a soul, as she lay dying in his arms, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't tell anyone...not even Catelyn. Plus, he barely knew Catelyn at the time he brought Jon home. As the years pasted, it was probably best not to revisit the topic. Also, if Catelyn had become nice and affectionate towards Jon, it may have raised suspicions.

[The guy from the Vale]

It doesn't add up:

Ned could have at least told Catelyn if it really was true that R+L=J...........Catelyn is all about family, duty and honour, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't tell a soul.......I'm also keen on believing that Jon is Ned's son, just the mother is a big mystery.

Catelyn is about HER family, duty, honour. Jon isn't part o her family, and by fostering him, Ned puts that very family in danger. Do you really think that if she knew, Catelyn would have traded Jon for Sansa during her Lannister captivity in a heartbeat?

[Dragonfish]

It doesn't add up:

Ned could have at least told Catelyn if it really was true that R+L=J...........Catelyn is all about family, duty and honour, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't tell a soul.......I'm also keen on believing that Jon is Ned's son, just the mother is a big mystery.

It's my experience that when people say R+L=J doesn't make sense or "doesn't add up", they are usually completey unaware of all the evidence in favor of the theory. So in case that's what's going on here, let me suggest that you read this essay before continuing with the argument.

Now, as for your specific point here, it is pretty much directly contradicted by Ned's own POV in AGOT, when he says this to himself:

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

Note that Ned believes it is sometimes necessary never to tell a secret to anyone, even someone you trust, due to the inherent danger of that secret. R+L=J would surely qualify as a very dangerous secret, therefore it would be perfectly in character for Ned never to tell this secret to anyone, including Catelyn.

[Ghost714]

It's my experience that when people say R+L=J doesn't make sense or "doesn't add up", they are usually completey unaware of all the evidence in favor of the theory. So in case that's what's going on here, let me suggest that you read this essay before continuing with the argument.

Now, as for your specific point here, it is pretty much directly contradicted by Ned's own POV in AGOT, when he says this to himself:

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

Note that Ned believes it is sometimes necessary never to tell a secret to anyone, even someone you trust, due to the inherent danger of that secret. R+L=J would surely qualify as a very dangerous secret, therefore it would be perfectly in character for Ned never to tell this secret to anyone, including Catelyn.

I couldn't agree more with this post.

In my experience also, every time someone says that R+L=J doesn't add up, it's because they don't know all the evidence that suggests R+L=J as true.

One of the most common arguments for example, is people thinking R+L=J doesn't "add up", because Jon looks like a Stark, and not at all like a Targaryen. Yet we have evidence from the text to show that not all Targaryen's have the steriotipical Targaryen look. I am referring to The Hedge Knight, as one example of textual proof that not all Targaryen's have had the traditional Targaryen look.

The Hedge Knight 

Page # 23

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg.

“It’s said he favors his mother,” the boy reminded him. “She was a Dornish princess.”

So Jon could easily have gotten the Stark look from Lyanna.

Like I said this is just one repeated example, of what most people try and use to disprove R+L=J.

Another one is "Ned would have told Catelyn", but there is also textual evidence to show that Ned would not have told Catelyn, like you pointed out, so it's not only speculation on our part.

I have yet to see an argument that can provide actual proof against R+L=J, everytime a supporter of R+L=J can disprove what the person is trying to offer as "proof" against it.

[James Arryn]

It doesn't add up:

Ned could have at least told Catelyn if it really was true that R+L=J...........Catelyn is all about family, duty and honour, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't tell a soul.......I'm also keen on believing that Jon is Ned's son, just the mother is a big mystery.

I don't see the math problem at all.

He's presented with a moral dilemma, and makes a death-bed promise to make the choice. From that point on he honors it as literally as he can. I think, from his POV, telling Cat would be as dishonorable as telling anyone else. Remember, a choice of honor isn't a choice of pragmatism. So an explanation of why breaking his promise with Cat wouldn't be as costly as breaking his promise with ___ doesn't really hold any water; it's still him breaking his promise.

And it would be done to ease his own pain...a point I doubt he'd miss.

IF Ned makes that deathbed promise, I honestly can't see him doing anything different than he has, and still being haunted by it for the rest of his life, as he was. It's completely consistent.

The only question to me is if that was the promise. It if was, it's pretty linear after that.

[LadyMary]

Jon Snow's name wouldn't change to "Sand." Your bastard name does not depend on where you were born, it is given to you by your parents. Said parents may give you the usual regional bastard name, or even a completely different name of their own devising. Jon was given the name "Snow", so his name is "Snow."

And besides, one of his parents is from the North regardless of which theory is correct, so he still has a right to the name "Snow" no matter what.

If R+L=J, then Jon's Mother was of the North. Also, his adoptive father Ned was of the North and may be the one who named him. Ergo, he's called Snow even if he was born in Dorne.

Genetically, however, if he's Rhaegar's son with Lyanna he's got Targaryen blood as well as Stark blood. That makes him a Targaryen on his father's side. The question that remains unanswered is whether Rhaegar married Lyanna in some way that would be acknowledged legally or declared his child by Lyanna to be legitimate (a Targaryen in name) even if they weren't legally married.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ned could have at least told Catelyn if it really was true that R+L=J.

No, he couldn't have.

1. When they married, they were practically strangers. Ned had no way of knowing that he could trust her or that she wouldn't sell him out to Robert. Or later on, she might have traded Jon ("An actual Targ!") if she thought it would bring Sansa and/or Arya back.

2. The ruse depends on Jon being believably treated like a bastard. If Catelyn is nurturing or loving or anything to him but cold, that might raise suspicion.

3. This is the biggie. If Ned's lie is caught, he'll be treated like a traitor and probably executed. Catelyn's safety depends on her not knowing. If Ned's trickery is discovered, he could ask to spare Catelyn's life because he could say, truthfully, that she didn't know. But if he lets her in on it, she's just as culpable as he is. So by keeping the secret, Ned is protecting Jon and Catelyn (and his other children).

[Alia of the knife]

No, he couldn't have.

1. When they married, they were practically strangers. Ned had no way of knowing that he could trust her or that she wouldn't sell him out to Robert. Or later on, she might have traded Jon ("An actual Targ!") if she thought it would bring Sansa and/or Arya back.

2. The ruse depends on Jon being believably treated like a bastard. If Catelyn is nurturing or loving or anything to him but cold, that might raise suspicion.

3. This is the biggie. If Ned's lie is caught, he'll be treated like a traitor and probably executed. Catelyn's safety depends on her not knowing. If Ned's trickery is discovered, he could ask to spare Catelyn's life because he could say, truthfully, that she didn't know. But if he lets her in on it, she's just as culpable as he is. So by keeping the secret, Ned is protecting Jon and Catelyn (and his other children).

Agreed.

Plausible Deniability.

[Stop Rhaegar HAMMERTIME!]

No, he couldn't have.

1. When they married, they were practically strangers. Ned had no way of knowing that he could trust her or that she wouldn't sell him out to Robert. Or later on, she might have traded Jon ("An actual Targ!") if she thought it would bring Sansa and/or Arya back.

2. The ruse depends on Jon being believably treated like a bastard. If Catelyn is nurturing or loving or anything to him but cold, that might raise suspicion.

3. This is the biggie. If Ned's lie is caught, he'll be treated like a traitor and probably executed. Catelyn's safety depends on her not knowing. If Ned's trickery is discovered, he could ask to spare Catelyn's life because he could say, truthfully, that she didn't know. But if he lets her in on it, she's just as culpable as he is. So by keeping the secret, Ned is protecting Jon and Catelyn (and his other children).

:agree:

[Sandsnake17]

I'm all for the R+L theory….BUT, let's not forget that Jon is a man of the Night's Watch. Even if it turns out that the Iron Throne is his by birth, if he leave the Night's Watch, by law he should be executed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm all for the R+L theory….BUT, let's not forget that Jon is a man of the Night's Watch. Even if it turns out that the Iron Throne is his by birth, if he leave the Night's Watch, by law he should be executed.

... No one's forgetting that.

There are plenty of ways for the Watch angle to be overcome, if Jon chooses to assert his rights. His watch ends with his death — if he actually dies and is resurrected, he could be free on a technicality (unlikely but I've seen it argued). The Watch might ultimately defeat the Others/whatever the Big Bad is, making it obsolete and freeing Jon and the other men to do other things with their lives. In the same way that I think Martin has a way to prove who Jon is within the story, I also think that, if the ultimate intention is for Jon to rule something, which isn't a given, Martin has a way for him to honorably exit the Night's Watch.

[Sandsnake17]

What I figured would happen is that somehow Jon, Dany and Egg turn out to be the 3 dragons, destroy The Others and then duke it out for The Iron Throne.