why do people hate dany so much and want her to die?

[str8 outta Old Town]

Look at a character like Oberyn Martell, he had more awesomeness in 3-4 chapters than Dany has had in the entire series.

Old-Lady Tyrrel is another who appears in about 10 pages all told, and manages to be far more awesome than Dany.

The problem is Esos, Martin hasn't put the same care and attention and thought into making it believable as he has with Westeros. The cultures don't ring true (the unsullied? come on!) and even the natural world is daft (come, follow our heroes as the travel the murky river of giant...turtles!).

[str8 outta Old Town]

A little different point: Dany's actions in Slavers' Bay sort of parallel the US's actions in the Sandbox. Jump in with both feet while not knowing squat about how the local culture functions. Not too farfetched to think Martin did this intentionally, as in his Armageddon Rag he shows a lot of sympathy toward the anti-Vietnam War culture of the '60s, and the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are directly comparable.

That is to say, Dany is (becomes) some powerful idiot who blunders around with ostensibly good intentions while causing huge amounts of destruction and hardship. And there's no indication that she will behave differently in Westeros.

I can honestly say I never realised Dany was supposed to be a metaphor for US intervention abroad, I suppose because I had never considered that the US interventions had good intentions behind them. If that is the way it was commonly perceived over there, then it might make sense.

Remember, when Martin was writing this, the justifications being used for US interventions were weapons of mass destruction and revenge, the "freedom lalala" bit was tagged on later.

[Ghost714]

And I see plenty of posts that paint her to be as good as possible while dismissing facts, too. So I still don't get your point. We're not going to disagree on it so we might as well drop it. Going around in circles is pointless and ever so annoying.

Also, it's biased. Not bias. Bias is a noun. Biased is an adjective. Nitpick, sorry.

Like I said, I don't agree with posts in her favor that do the same thing.

There are just so many people against Dany, way more so than the people for her, and there are a lot of reasons why people can be against her. It just gets frustrating that so many people repeatedly make posts like that against Dany, without listing all the facts, when they can still make Dany look bad, without skewing the facts.

Posts like that are so repeated, it makes me feel like people just saw a post like that, and believed it was all true because they had not read the books in so long, so then they start making posts like that. Hell I even started to think worse about Dany, until I went back and read the books again and realized people were twisting facts, and making assumptions.

[seeyouintee]

The supposed metaphor would make for some pretty funny inclusions of this board's crackpot theories though... Dany could justify invading the North by suggesting Winterfell was hiding ice dragons of mass destruction.

[lostinwesteros]

For the most part most readers are rooting for a particular house whether they want to admit it or not. Most are prob Stark fans. There are also many Lannister loylists as well as Baratheon, Martell, etc. What's hilarious about the equation is that other than the Martells, everyone has screwed the Dragons in the past and Dany it would seem cannot pass up a chance to shit on the families(who she has no knowledge of) or threatened to end them once she travels across the narrow sea. Naturally most readers resent this because most of the emtional losses in the series occurs in westeros to those said families and now it seems that while they are all fighting each other, this little girl who cant hold a sword, has more advisors than any of the other families in the series combined, with the unquestioned loyalty of drone soldiers, and three dragons are just going to swoop into westeros and burn everything alive, and it is insulting and people resent that. Because it cheapens the personal struggles of everyone is westeros and it gives it a deus ex machina ending.

If the story began with the sacking of king's landing maybe many people would feel differently about this series, but it began with honorable people dying, children getting pushed out of the window and family feuds that have yet to be reconciled. If the Starks reunite again, if Stannis somehow admits that he loved his brothers, if Jaime and Brienne get together...only for the dragons to destroy everything again...it would piss alot of people off. Not everyone, but it would piss alot of people off. Thats why people hate Dany, because she is the Harbinger of the deus ex machina ending that could happen

I see that there are well over a hundred posts, but this one puts everything I think into one beautiful exposition. Thanks, David C. Simmons!

[teemo]

It's mainly because I find her POVs extremely, EXTREMELY boring. Not to mention, I am not a Targ advocate. I think it's funny that on here she is not very popular, but on Facebook and other show fan sites she is by far the fan favorite. Well, close to it at least.

Oh, and I didn't like it AT ALL when she talked shit on Ned in aCoK. That really pissed me off. I understand where she's coming from, but still.

[Bride of Winter]

Naturally most readers resent this because most of the emtional losses in the series occurs in westeros to those said families and now it seems that while they are all fighting each other, this little girl who cant hold a sword, has more advisors than any of the other families in the series combined, with the unquestioned loyalty of drone soldiers, and three dragons are just going to swoop into westeros and burn everything alive, and it is insulting and people resent that. Because it cheapens the personal struggles of everyone is westeros and it gives it a deus ex machina ending.

you pretty much explained it better than I ever could have. thank you.

[Guynemer]

Small nitpick: it would not be a deus ex machina, because we've watched her develop from the begining. "Aegon" is far more a deus ex machina than Dany ever could be, as there was never even a hint of his existence until the fifth book.

I don't deny that would be a unsatisfying ending if she swooped in with her dragons and Unsullied and subjugated Westeros in short order, but it certainly wouldn't be a deus ex machina.

On the broader topic, I can understand people's frustration with her arc, especially the Meereenese quagmire, and doubly especially as she had the keys to her salvation the whole time and refused to use them because dragons will be dragons.

However, to say she hasn't had any awesome moments is completely insane. "Dragons are not slaves" ranks as one of the absolute most amazing scenes in the entire series.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's mainly because I find her POVs extremely, EXTREMELY boring. Not to mention, I am not a Targ advocate. I think it's funny that on here she is not very popular, but on Facebook and other show fan sites she is by far the fan favorite. Well, close to it at least.

I think that's because most of the people who are into the show now haven't read the books or haven't read all of the books. Plenty of people, myself included, liked her well enough after aGoT but grew steadily disenchanted. I see a lot of non-readers saying things like, "Wow she has dragons now, she's going to be so kickass!" I wonder how much they'll like her when it's 2015 and she hasn't gone to Westeros yet.

Small nitpick: it would not be a deus ex machina, because we've watched her develop from the begining. "Aegon" is far more a deus ex machina than Dany ever could be, as there was never even a hint of his existence until the fifth book.

Disagree here. People have been predicting and waiting for "an" Aegon to show up for years. Someone saw it coming.

[Milcov]

It's mainly because I find her POVs extremely, EXTREMELY boring. Not to mention, I am not a Targ advocate. I think it's funny that on here she is not very popular, but on Facebook and other show fan sites she is by far the fan favorite. Well, close to it at least.

Oh, and I didn't like it AT ALL when she talked shit on Ned in aCoK. That really pissed me off. I understand where she's coming from, but still.

I think the fact she's popular with 'the masses' compounds to her hate on here. And on the last part, you acknowledge that it's understandable but I don't think that covers it. I like Ned, but I'd be a bit confused if Dany liked him. Up until Barristan, Dany's two closest advisors/sources were Viserys and Jorah, both of whom hated Eddard. One of the best things about ASOIAF is that you like and hate characters on all sides of the affair and have to deal with them detesting and fighting each other. Sure I'd love it if; Tyrion, Oberyn, Jaime, Jon, Daenerys, Barristan, Eddard, Davos and Littlefinger teamed up and campaigned against Robert, Lysa+Sweetrobin, Joffrey, Bran and Asha but it isn't happening for all the right reasons.

Dany did not end slavery. All she did was swap around who were the slaves and who were the slavers, and led loads of people to starvation. Nor was she going about abolishing slavery the right way. You can't just destroy some cities and tell people to stop doing what they've been doing for thousands of years. A more gradual approach would have been better.

I'll grant you that her marriage to Hizdahr was smart but it wasn't her idea, it doesn't help her overall goal of conquering Westeros, and completely jeapardised the peace it bought by sleeping around with Daario.

And yes Dany was right to punish the slavers, but who's to say the people she crucified where slavers? As I recall she just told the slaver families to give her 163 of their relatives to kill. In all likellyhood she crucified slaves dressed up in Tokars.

Can't really say I disagree on that last point to there's that.

And then there's the fact that she has no reason to be conquering Slaver's Bay. She has no right to the place, it's infeasible to break the slave trade so suddenly and her goal is to claim Westeros. She should have left after sacking Astapor. And what's more Dany is a hypocrit. She's works so hard to abolish slavery but has no problems with using slaves in Illyrio's manse or amongst the Dothraki.

So Dany's approach to ending slavery wasn't planned for long-term purposes but she did outlaw slavery. Yunkai was spared, Astapor had a council set up and Meereen was taken over with the goal of ensuring it didn't end up in ruin. Her actions do show a great lack of cultural and political understanding but I think that's forgivable.

It wasn't her idea, but not many great ideas are solely those of the rulers. A smart ruler recognises a good idea and implements it while discarding bad suggestions. She still deserves credit for doing so, at a personal cost to herself. She ignores the Shavepates advice when he's too belligerent and quite correctly shows some gratitude to Illyrio by refusing the Tattered Prince's offer.

She never slept with Daario after marrying Hizdahr, and Hizdahr wanted the crown not Dany. Even Quentyn Martell recognised that she'd taken Daario as a paramour and that a political marriage with her was more likely. I'm sure Hizdahr would have seen the same thing.

I think it's safe to assume she killed slavers, it's never suggested otherwise. Some scepticism is healthy in ASOIAF, some is unfounded nonsense.

She has no right to Slavers Bay, but she takes it and then rules as Queen of Meereen. Once she's acknowledged as Queen there's her right, Aegon's right to Westeros came from conquest and subsequent acknowledgement, same as Robert. And that's where her right to Westeros will come from with some help from blood.

Lastly saying she's a hypocrit because there were slaves in Illyrio's manse is being picky. She was 13 when she left Pentos, so we're condemning a pre-teen girl for not fighting the powers at be in a Free City where said powers are protecting her from possible death. And she did try to stop slavery with the Dothraki, she said they should marry the enslaved women rather than merely rape them as sex slaves. She then also freed the part of the khalasar that stayed with her. She has her flaws but she holds true to a stance against slavery.

[Carey Snow]

In response to many of the post in this thread that seem to indicate that Dany's arc is not enjoayable and is worthless compared to the rest of the story.

I have enjoyed many of Dany's chapters. I enjoyed just about every Dany chapter in the first three books. I used to even skip ahead to read them. Love the ARC with Kahl Drogo and Mirri Maz Dur that lead to the dragons. Loved the lost City she found in the Red Waste. Loved the House of the Undying chapter. Loved the burning of Astapor and her gaining her Army. Loved the scene in the fighting pit where she tames Drogon and rides off on his back with her hair on fire. Loved the last chapter in aDwD where she regains her focus.

To me there was too many Meereen chapters in aDwD while George was trying to position Tyrion, Victarion, and everyone else involved in the Meereeneesse knot. It was obviously very tough for Martin to write, which made it tough to read. If he would have edited and merged some of the Dany chapters together in that book than her arc would have benifited greatly.

If you simply say that you have never enjoyed a Dany chapter than I think you are just being a Dany hater and not grasping the full story that Martin is creating. There is going to be a big twist, as Martin does with all of his characters, and Dany's fate will go somewhere different then it seemed destined to through out the story. Don't forget this is a song of Ice and Fire and Dany's dragons represent fire.

In the meantime, all hail Queen Daenerys Stormborn, Queen of Meereen, Rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, The Breaker of Shackles, The Protecter of the Realm, and the Mother of Dragons. :bowdown:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If you simply say that you never enjoyed a Dany chapeter than I think you are just being a Dany hater and not grasping the full story that Martin is creating.

Can we please, please, please get over the downright insulting and ignorant idea that if you dislike a character, it's because you don't "get" or "appreciate" the story? I mean, it can't possibly be because there are so many different characters and so many different people reading them that there's bound to be differences of opinion.

[Serie]

Can we please, please, please get over the downright insulting and ignorant idea that if you dislike a character, it's because you don't "get" or "appreciate" the story? I mean, it can't possibly be because there are so many different characters and so many different people reading them that there's bound to be differences of opinion.

I totally agree. Preference is a subjective issue. Not liking the story of a character is completely understandable and can be explained by the reader's personal taste.

However the interesting thing is that when you dislike a character you just tend to ignore him/her. For example I don't like Stannis. I put up with him. And that's as far as it goes. And I've also heard of people disliking Bran's POVs. But come on, how many threads have we seen under the title "I hate Bran and I wish he turns into firewood" (old gods please no!)? Dany's character causes feelings much more stronger than that. In that way I don't tag her as boring. And I count this as a bet the writer has won.

[Carey Snow]

Can we please, please, please get over the downright insulting and ignorant idea that if you dislike a character, it's because you don't "get" or "appreciate" the story? I mean, it can't possibly be because there are so many different characters and so many different people reading them that there's bound to be differences of opinion.

I was responding to the idea that someone hated the character and therefor could never get any enjoyment out of any aspect of her story or what she adds. That seems to be shortsighted to me and disregards readers who do enjoy aspects of her story and character, which is what I was pointing out. Also, that this is not a completed work and we do not know how Dany's story ultimately fits into the entire series.

It is the idea that Dany's story is worthless that I was arguing against. And the idea that just because you do not like her character arc does not mean that others can not enjoy it.

At least I do not go around calling posts insulting or ignorant.

I should also have used multi quotes as I was responding more to a group of posts than the one I actually quoted. My fault there.

[protar]

So Dany's approach to ending slavery wasn't planned for long-term purposes but she did outlaw slavery. Yunkai was spared, Astapor had a council set up and Meereen was taken over with the goal of ensuring it didn't end up in ruin. Her actions do show a great lack of cultural and political understanding but I think that's forgivable.

Yes she outlawed slavery. And that was a bad move if she wanted to abolish it. You cannot just march up to a city, kill most of it's inhabitants and then declare that they need to completely change the traditions they've been practicing for thousands of years. Especially as the people of Slaver's Bay had almost no other trade but slavery. If Dany wanted to abolish slavery she should have gone for a more long term strategy (Though from a story perspective I'm glad she didn't because otherwise she'd never get to Westeros.), giving the slaves gradually more and more rights while regrowing olive trees and timber and converting the Unsullied into mercenaries rather than slaves. Then once she'd established those things she could transfer Meereen's main trades to those rather than slavery. The fact that she thought she could just get rid of it with a snap of her fingers shows what an inadequate ruler she is, especially considering the fact that I was able to come up with a completely viable plan of action on the spot that would have been far more efficient than Dany's.

Also note how sparing Yunkai, and instituting a council in Astapor didn't work. At all. Personally I do not find great a great lack of cultural and political knowledge forgivable, for Dany or any other ruler.

It wasn't her idea, but not many great ideas are solely those of the rulers. A smart ruler recognises a good idea and implements it while discarding bad suggestions. She still deserves credit for doing so, at a personal cost to herself. She ignores the Shavepates advice when he's too belligerent and quite correctly shows some gratitude to Illyrio by refusing the Tattered Prince's offer.

As I've already said, I'll give you that it was a good idea (providing it wasn't a trap which it probably is.), and yes a good leader listens to council. But please don't praise Dany as a genius for it. There's a difference between recognising an idea as good and thinking up a good idea yourself.

She never slept with Daario after marrying Hizdahr, and Hizdahr wanted the crown not Dany. Even Quentyn Martell recognised that she'd taken Daario as a paramour and that a political marriage with her was more likely. I'm sure Hizdahr would have seen the same thing.

Dany never slept with Daario after she married Hizdahr because she never had the opportunity. If she did I have no doubt she would have been bonking the blue haired whoreson thrice a day. And to say that people wouldn't have been offended by such is ridiculous. People are clearly offended. The Green Grace for instance is obviously very angry.

I think it's safe to assume she killed slavers, it's never suggested otherwise. Some scepticism is healthy in ASOIAF, some is unfounded nonsense.

Ah so now you're calling my opinions unfounded nonsense. Classy. There is every reason to beleive that the 163 victims were not slavers. All Dany does is ask the slavers to give her 163 of their numbers. There is no mention of any inquiry of their guilt, and considering what we know of the slavers, it's hardly a leap to think that there might have been some deceit going on.

She has no right to Slavers Bay, but she takes it and then rules as Queen of Meereen. Once she's acknowledged as Queen there's her right, Aegon's right to Westeros came from conquest and subsequent acknowledgement, same as Robert. And that's where her right to Westeros will come from with some help from blood.

Fair enough, she does have right of conquest. But considering her anti-slavery values, it seems a bit hypocritical to force her rule on people.

Lastly saying she's a hypocrit because there were slaves in Illyrio's manse is being picky. She was 13 when she left Pentos, so we're condemning a pre-teen girl for not fighting the powers at be in a Free City where said powers are protecting her from possible death. And she did try to stop slavery with the Dothraki, she said they should marry the enslaved women rather than merely rape them as sex slaves. She then also freed the part of the khalasar that stayed with her. She has her flaws but she holds true to a stance against slavery.

I was not suggesting that she fought against slavery, I'm saying that she shows no discomfit at using them. And yes she does stop the slavery in her Khalasar. But only when it takes the form of a crying woman being raped. If it's up in her face it bothers her and she tries to stop it. When it's below the surface she's perfectly happy with it.

[Fire Eater]

And Dany did have dragons and Unsullied, but she wanted peace, so she had to accept the terms from Yunkai, because the way Dany saw it was, crappy terms are still terms. Dany couldn't get what she wanted, so she had to accept what she could get... The lesser of two evils, kind of deal.

We don't know that for a fact. However, we do know Dany wanted peace too much to the point she was willing to bargain for any deal. We don't know if they would have accepted some the terms she wanted.

[Serie]

It is the idea that Dany's story is worthless that I was arguing against. And the idea that just because you do not like her character arc does not mean that others can not enjoy it.

some might say Dany's story is worthless because they can't see any connection with the rest POVs. Which seems weird to me especially after the ADWD events. Still, people don't always look at it the same way.

And you're so right, just because you don't like a character doesn't mean others feel the same way too. But it goes the other way round as well. That's where personal taste comes in (and all these come from an admirer of Dany, just to be clear about that :D)

[OldCorvid]

There is going to be a big twist, as Martin does with all of his characters, and Dany's fate will go somewhere different then it seemed destined to through out the story. Don't forget this is a song of Ice and Fire and Dany's dragons represent fire.

See that does nothing for me. Greatness by fiat is not what I want out of this series. That's my main problem with the idea of her being a hero.

There's definitely interesting things to be done with the character, and we'll see how it plays out. But the idea that "there's going to be a big twist, and she will be important because fire" is precisely the complaint some of us have with the character.

Overall she has some interesting chapters, isn't the worst person out there, and lets us see another world, although it does sometimes get frustrating when there's a lot going on in Westeros and then we get dragged out of it. I could be happy with her inclusion in the storyline and end up rooting for her under the right circumstances. But she's far from my favorite at this point.

[teemo]

I think the fact she's popular with 'the masses' compounds to her hate on here. And on the last part, you acknowledge that it's understandable but I don't think that covers it. I like Ned, but I'd be a bit confused if Dany liked him. Up until Barristan, Dany's two closest advisors/sources were Viserys and Jorah, both of whom hated Eddard. One of the best things about ASOIAF is that you like and hate characters on all sides of the affair and have to deal with them detesting and fighting each other. Sure I'd love it if; Tyrion, Oberyn, Jaime, Jon, Daenerys, Barristan, Eddard, Davos and Littlefinger teamed up and campaigned against Robert, Lysa+Sweetrobin, Joffrey, Bran and Asha but it isn't happening for all the right reasons.

Yes. That's exactly why I understand where she's coming from. But I still don't have to like her :)

[TywinLann]

I will take more Dany chapters if it means no more Brienne chapters