why do people hate dany so much and want her to die?

[Tick]

In the end I think that Dany's PoV is plagued by the "cliche". She's depicted as the "obvious hero", she's got her dragons etc etc. Thing is though, in the end I think it all boils down to a state of comparison. The fact that she's carrying the above with her at all times works against her in terms of appealing to us as readers, since we're used to that - as opposed to other characters whose ambitions are marginal in comparison (on an "absolute scale"). Hence there is more relative room for associating with those characters, which make them more tangible.The other problem, as hitherto mentioned several times, revolves around the stalling. I do agree that having Dany interact with Westeros to a further extent could have been beneficial, and that's what kinda turns me off when I read her PoV.

So why is that, though? That part is quite ironic, because personally, I actually think her character is vivid and a victim of flaws, just like others. I've never considered Dany arrogant or the similar - she's a young girl, almost puerile in an odd sense, and I think the part we're talking about here is the development. I find that rather interesting, myself, but that's also the thing that works against her PoV. There's no going into and out of Meereen with an army like that; that's also why I love these books. In fact, I've always felt that her developing character constantly conflicts with her surroundings (Meereen being no exception) in a way that totally overshadows anything I'd dare believe possible when it comes to a character with a trunk full of clichés from the start.

In the end, there's either moving on to Westeros or stalling, but I'd pick stalling over moving on any day of the week. Going for Westeros would have meant the sacrifice of a crucial element in Martins' writing - namely the part that turns it all realistic in terms of character portrayal and development. A consequence is also the logic that permeates the books. She had to obtain an army, but obtaining an army isn't something you do with the snap of your fingers. Added to this is the brilliantly interwoven parts of her personality. In order to conquer, you need a head and a body. I don't mind dedicating this part to acquiring the body and simultaneosly watching the head progressing.

So, while I do understand others' reluctance towards her or her PoV:s (like myself), I think she's made enormous contibutions to the story in a very logical way, although from afar. As for those dragons of hers, somehow I very much doubt they'll become the "weapons of mass destructions" some fear they will become. The above explains that, really; the concept of turning them into that is diametrically opposite to what Martin's achieved this far. In fact, thus far, the impression he's conveyed to me is that they aren't as invulnerable as some feel they are.

[Gromdal]

I don't hate Dany at all, she's not my favorite character but she's not horrible either. The HoTU chapters were really good and there were many great chapters in every book.

I think Dany NEEDS to be in Essos otherwise people would just be like "Fuck George why didn't you show us Essos until Tyrion had to escape and Arya had to go to Braavos?".

I also think it's important we see another setting besides Westeros, and a big reason for this is slavery. Even Tyrion points it out and it's mentioned by some Mereneese characters in the novels; how slaves in Essos are pretty much the same thing as regular people in Westeros. There's many comparisons about how people are treated the same way in both continents by the aristocracy and at the end of the day both populations are slaves be it officially or unofficially. This just shows the hypocritical set of mind in Westeros where the noble families think they've abolished slavery when really the only free folk in the world are north of the Wall. In slaver's bay slaves get whipped throughout the streets and if they escape they get killed with those slings, but look at someone like Mycah, the guy got killed over nothing. It's the same state of mind.

With this I agree. From Tyrion chapters I remember something like this: "Almost every man from Westeros would tell you that he would rather die than became a slave, and yet if presented him with that choice most of people would choose slavery. There are slaves here who live far better than most of population of Westeros and those who live fare worse." Can't remember the exact quote but the point remains.

Here we see that even slavery isn't black and white society and it isn't that simple. Being a slaver does not make someone a bad person, because we see some slavers treat they salves good. And also slavers grew up in society where slavery is accepted social norm, just like feudalism and lords are accepted in Westeros. Martin really showed this well in some chapters, and that's why I think hes Meerens chapters did their purpose among other things.

All 3 of major character: Jon, Dany and Tyrion could use a chapter or two less in ADwD but still they had a point to show.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

With this I agree. From Tyrion chapters I remember something like this: "Almost every man from Westeros would tell you that he would rather die than became a slave, and yet if presented him with that choice most of people would choose slavery. There are slaves here who live far better than most of population of Westeros and those who live fare worse." Can't remember the exact quote but the point remains.

Here we see that even slavery isn't black and white society and it isn't that simple. Being a slaver does not make someone a bad person, because we see some slavers treat they salves good. And also slavers grew up in society where slavery is accepted social norm, just like feudalism and lords are accepted in Westeros. Martin really showed this well in some chapters, and that's why I think hes Meerens chapters did their purpose among other things.

All 3 of major character: Jon, Dany and Tyrion could use a chapter or two less in ADwD but still they had a point to show.

I was thinking of that quote but I couldn't remember it exactly, I agree with you that GRRM might have overdone those 3 characters a bit and maybe he didn't do enough Jaime chapters

[TywinLann]

People are frustrated with GRRM's inability to move the story forward so they choose to blame it on a fictional character instead of just saying fuck you GRRM. Lol. I'm guessing when he originally planned the 3-4 book series there wasn't going to be anything on Myr. He just can't help himself and feels compelled to over explain everything in this world he created and will probably balloon the series to 8-9 books just because of his inability to get to the point. Get mad at GRRM, not some fictional character. Hahaha

[Ghost714]

In ADwD concerning Jon, Daenerys, and Tyrion I do not think any of them had "to many chapters". I enjoyed all of their chapters, and I believe they are all there for a reason(I actually feel this way about every chapter). I don't think GRRM should have cut any of them. It's not like those three POV characters took up to many chapters, and now GRRM won't have enough chapters to finish the story or anything. GRRM may be shooting for seven books, but if he needs to he will extend that, so that's why I don't think any of those three characters took up to many chapters. If That was the case then GRRM would have stopped at three books, or five, or six, but he didn't. So it's not like we have to worry about the rest of the story being rushed or anything. GRRM obviously feels like he has enough "room" left to complete all the individual arcs and stuff, and like I said if he needs to, we know he will extend the book count. So considering there is nothing saying GRRM has to rap everything up in seven books, I don't think of any chapters, or pages, as a waste. I personally don't mind it at all of GRRM puts in extra chapters for POV charecters that are not 100% "neccisary", because every chapter is their for a reason in my opinion, and every page of every chapter is enjoyable in my opinion. I really do not find any of it "boring". Just because a chapter is not currently "driving" the main plot at that time, it doesn't mean it's not important, or worth reading.

[Castel]

People are frustrated with GRRM's inability to move the story forward so they choose to blame it on a fictional character instead of just saying fuck you GRRM. Lol. I'm guessing when he originally planned the 3-4 book series there wasn't going to be anything on Myr. He just can't help himself and feels compelled to over explain everything in this world he created and will probably balloon the series to 8-9 books just because of his inability to get to the point. Get mad at GRRM, not some fictional character. Hahaha

I personally felt that it was a good move. Dany was living in fantasy land if she thought that she could just go around fixing an entire continent.There were some issues with her character and outlook that needed to be dealt with. It doesn't fit in with the general theme of the series. I think people are mostly getting mad for the same reason they get mad at the lack of progress on the Others. They seem to think that whatever happened on Westeros before is just some prelude or sideshow to the real battle beyond the Wall. Dany is more than an ordinary character apparently, so when her plotline doesn't lead straight back to Westeros to fulfill her destiny people get impatient.

[PatrickStormborn]

She isn't fueled by a desire to make Westeros better, to stamp out injustice, or even to help the people- she is, as you said, unforgiving of those who destroyed her house, and she wants vengeance. She wants to restore the age of Fire and Blood ruling the Iron Throne. So if you consider bloody and fiery revenge against the people who overthrew an insane tyrant to be a good priority, then yes, she has her priorities in order.

Actually, she does want to help the people of Westeros. That's her motive. To bring justice to Westeros.

[JKeats]

Actually, she does want to help the people of Westeros. That's her motive. To bring justice to Westeros.

A fine motive, but fatally compromised by the simple fact that she knows fuck all about Westeros. She would be a well intentioned meddler; we saw how that worked out in Slaver's Bay.

[Thunderfist]

Actually, she does want to help the people of Westeros. That's her motive. To bring justice to Westeros.

Perhaps she does, I´m not sure. But I think we all agree that bringing an army of sellswords (who will want to rape/plunder) and (perhaps) dothraki (who will want to rape/plunder) and three dragons who she has very little control over to Westeros, just as winter has arrived is a very poor idea. The continent is in terrible shape, bringing vast armies of foreign invaders isn´t really good for anyone (the same goes for Aegon btw, even though I suspect that his army is a bit more well mannered).

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Actually, she does want to help the people of Westeros. That's her motive. To bring justice to Westeros.

I disagree. Her motive was to go home as queen. She believes she deserves the throne because it was her father's and also because she believes she is the Dragon (she is special) and she will be able to conquer Westeros. Like most other claimants, they want the throne and they will use whatever allows them to claim to be theirs to get it. She is a warlord really who also feels some compassion about others at times and to her credit she did abandon her objective for Westeros for Mereen (at least for some time) so she can be more complicated than that. But no I don't think her motive was justice. Or what she intends do to Westeros (conquer it) would be justice and helping the .people of it. Whether it is Dothraki or Dragons these are tools of destruction. Of course it is possible that Daenerys realizes her previous excessive pride and error in motivation in the story, it will be interesting to see what kind of decisions she will make and if she ever starts thinking with less tunnel vision about what she is ( In ADWD she does admits she can be a monster but that is not the same with in more detail introspection about her previous intentions of Westeros conquering as a warlord), about how that compares to slavers and their oppression and about her previous intentions and whether she intends to change.

And I also want to add, that the whole warlord who wants to help slaves and wants the throne of Westeros and is also a beautiful girl and she seems to fit some of the cliche of other fantasy heroes is all the mix for an interesting character because I think GRRM subverts the fantasy heroine with her character and it is interesting to think of her actions and compare with issues such an occupation force in a foreign land with different culture that tries to change it. Or even modern examples of those who think they are justified in the modern age to bring what they think is justice through blood and destruction.

So GRRM did a good job of having the Daenerys character in his story. I think the problems with it are others such as possible pacing, issues not populating her stories with sufficiently good characters and other issues I explained previously. The execution of her story in ADWD could have been better in my view.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Actually, she does want to help the people of Westeros. That's her motive. To bring justice to Westeros.

And bringing justice to Westeros happens to coincide with her being its queen. Nifty, yes? And justice also means bringing over a massive army of foreigners — the Unsullied might behave themselves but she was fully prepared to let a Dothraki horde rape and pillage its way across the country. Very helpful to the smallfolk of Westeros, right?

Dany seems to destroy whatever it is she tries to save. Good intentions are nice and all but they also pave the road to hell.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

In Danny's case, there is some blatant and serious self-delusion going on about the consequences of being a conqueror. She wants to be a conqueror, yet she also capable of feeling some compassion about victims and tries to stop the Dothraki in that village she stumbled upon. All in all, I am unsure whether to call someone who is so self-deluded and also has such a murderous plan about having good intentions. I mean I think on some level she must know that people will die and suffer for her goal. Yet when she faces the crime directly she doesn't seem to like it. (But neither do we see her trying to change the plan of invading Westeros when she finds out what the Dothraki did in that village so perharps her intention is to help a few after she is indirectly is the reason of their destruction and feel better about herself).

I mean I can call what Robb did, marrying with the girl he slept as good intentions. I am not sure I would grant that to Danny in regards of her wanting to conquer Westeros. In regards to her wanting to free slaves, sure.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In Danny's case, there is some blatant and serious self-delusion going on about the consequences of being a conqueror. She wants to be a conqueror, yet she also capable of feeling some compassion about victims and tries to stop the Dothraki in that village she stumbled upon. All in all, I am unsure whether to call someone who is so self-deluded and also has such a murderous plan about having good intentions. I mean I think on some level she must know that people will die and suffer for her goal. Yet when she faces the crime directly she doesn't seem to like it. (But neither do we see her trying to change the plan of invading Westeros when she finds out what the Dothraki did in that village so perharps her intention is to help a few after she is indirectly is the reason of their destruction and feel better about herself).

I see it as, Dany only feels guilty or bad about that sort of thing when she actually has to look it in the face. If something bad is happening in front of her where she has to see it, then it upsets her. On the flip side, if she's not confronted with it personally, I don't think it means anything to her or she's willing to overlook it or view it in abstract terms.

She may have slightly more compassion than some of her rivals, sure. But seeing as she's preparing to invade a country she knows nearly nothing about with a horde of foreigners (tens of thousands of extra mouths to feed in the middle of a harsh winter where food is already scarce) and three dragons she can't really control, with the express purpose of becoming the new queen, I can't say with a straight face that her "intentions are good." Her intentions have always been for her own self-fulfillment. Even her acts of goodness (freeing the Unsullied) are actually pretty self-serving if you take five seconds to think about them (getting a free-and-clear army and preventing any rivals from buying up extras and/or exacting revenge).

[James Arryn]

I don't want her to die, and I probably still have enough invested in her that if/when she actually gets off her ass and does something interesting I'll be rooting for her, but for the past few books she's just been a sink-hole, plot wise.

Compared with many of the more complex characters in the series, Barristan is relatively boring and straight-forward, and yet he comes across as an incredibly needed breath of fresh air in Dany's entourage, and that imo speaks volumes.

That the (arguably) most interesting character is on his way to her might be a sign of things to come, but tbh Tyrion's storyline really dragged the closer he got, so maybe she's all-powerful.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Actually, she does want to help the people of Westeros. That's her motive. To bring justice to Westeros.

“the common people are waiting for him. Magister Illyrio says they are sewing dragon banners and praying for Viserys to return from across the narrow sea to free them.”

“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,” Ser Jorah told her. “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” He gave a shrug. “They never are.”

[( Bloodraven )]

Why do I hate her? Hmm

Dany: I'm a messiah. These are my children. I need to free them from slavery! The slavers are evullllllll

Dany: *frees slaves, fails at everything else causing destruction and war*

Fans: *ignores destruction* It's ok, she freed the slaves omg she's so great rah rah girl power!!1!

Slavers: *crucifies children*

Dany: *shows them crucifixion is wrong by crucifying people without trial/proof*

Dany & fans: I/she did it for the children~~~ (rah rah girl power!!1!)

Dany: *ignores the case of the child where his father was killed, and his mother was raped because she pardoned all crimes*

Fans: *ignores this case because it's dany*

If Dany was a guy, I bet they would be all "how misogynist! this hypocrite cannot be accepted, he's enabling rapers!!1!" :rolleyes:

Fortunately there are other greater, far more complex female characters than this piece of overrated..... targ.

If ASOIAF was just about her (or her journey coming to ~save westeros and be a competent ruler in just two books), this is where it will end up: http://i.imgur.com/XIjUF.jpg

[Lady Hodor]

Daenerys Targaryen is my second fave character.

GO DANY! CONQUOR WESTEROS WITH FIRE AND BLOOD!

[Milcov]

Why do I hate her? Hmm

Dany: I'm a messiah. These are my children. I need to free them from slavery! The slavers are evullllllll

Dany: *frees slaves, fails at everything else causing destruction and war*

Fans: *ignores destruction* It's ok, she freed the slaves omg she's so great rah rah girl power!!1!

Slavers: *crucifies children*

Dany: *shows them crucifixion is wrong by crucifying people without trial/proof*

Dany & fans: I/she did it for the children~~~ (rah rah girl power!!1!)

Dany: *ignores the case of the child where his father was killed, and his mother was raped because she pardoned all crimes*

Fans: *ignores this case because it's dany*

Dany: Frees slaves, makes a smart political marriage to ensure peace

Haters: Ignores ending of slavery and good moves

Slavers: Crucify children

Dany: Crucifies slavers

Haters: What a tyrant, she was horrible to slavers

Dany: Ignores case because she pardoned all crimes.

Haters: She shouldn't hold her word on pardons

[Milcov]

I mean I can call what Robb did, marrying with the girl he slept as good intentions. I am not sure I would grant that to Danny in regards of her wanting to conquer Westeros. In regards to her wanting to free slaves, sure.

I'd call that stupidity. Even Eddard who is the poster boy for honour didn't marry Ashara Dayne once he was in a marriage contract to Catelyn Tully. Robb was very likeable and proved an able military tactician and strategist, however he was a political disaster. He has sex with a Westerlands girl, fine no problem. He doesn't have to marry her and ruin his kingdom, this would have been the equivalent of Dany marrying Daario or the Shavepate over Hizdahr.

She wants to conquer Westeros for the same reason Robb wants to have the North. Vengeance for her father, perceived right to do so.

[protar]

Dany: Frees slaves, makes a smart political marriage to ensure peace

Haters: Ignores ending of slavery and good moves

Slavers: Crucify children

Dany: Crucifies slavers

Haters: What a tyrant, she was horrible to slavers

Dany: Ignores case because she pardoned all crimes.

Haters: She shouldn't hold her word on pardons

Dany did not end slavery. All she did was swap around who were the slaves and who were the slavers, and led loads of people to starvation. Nor was she going about abolishing slavery the right way. You can't just destroy some cities and tell people to stop doing what they've been doing for thousands of years. A more gradual approach would have been better.

I'll grant you that her marriage to Hizdahr was smart but it wasn't her idea, it doesn't help her overall goal of conquering Westeros, and completely jeapardised the peace it bought by sleeping around with Daario.

And yes Dany was right to punish the slavers, but who's to say the people she crucified where slavers? As I recall she just told the slaver families to give her 163 of their relatives to kill. In all likellyhood she crucified slaves dressed up in Tokars.

Can't really say I disagree on that last point to there's that.

And then there's the fact that she has no reason to be conquering Slaver's Bay. She has no right to the place, it's infeasible to break the slave trade so suddenly and her goal is to claim Westeros. She should have left after sacking Astapor. And what's more Dany is a hypocrit. She's works so hard to abolish slavery but has no problems with using slaves in Illyrio's manse or amongst the Dothraki.