From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[bgona]

Great posts as usual and so enlightening. I totally missed the first time around the inconsistencies with Marillion, if that in fact is him. But what would have happened to the real Marillion if the guy they brought in before Nestor was not the real one and who is the guy they brought in? Hmmmm.

...The big thing that jumped out at me is the focus on lies, lying, whether there can ever be a good lie or when is it okay to lie if ever. This is Sansa's first chapter in AFFC, and at the end of the last book, in Sam's last chapter I think, we have Sam agonizing over whether it is okay to lie if it's for an honorable reason, ie can there be an honorable lie. Then we get all this focus on lies in Sansa's first chapter of the next book, which is probably around the same time as when Sam was considering this. There's definitely a parallel going on here that makes the reader consider this moral dilemma in his or her own life.

It could also be seen as a developmental issue too. When we are children/very young, we are told that we should never lie because it is wrong and bad things can happen as a result. I have told my kids the same thing. As we grow however, we realize that there may be times when it is okay to lie or even beneficial, and we have to sort through when those cases might arise. Also, as we grow we learn that there can even be a "good" lie, such as when it would hurt someone's feelings to tell the truth. Then, as we get even older we have to sort through the moral implications more, such as whether it is okay to lie to save ourselves especially if it in some way will hurt someone else, and whether that soemone else is your friend or foe. It's as if Sansa's maturity and growth are being symbolized by her lies, her ability to lie convincingly and the situations she is put in in which she needs to lie.

Ok, everybody lies, we can´t deny it. But I still prefering omission that a full lie (you know the half lie). I still trying to tell the truth.

Maybe due to this fact I´m getting scarier with Sansa lies (she´s still liying to preserve her own live, but she is beginning to lie by her own mostly to SR). It is the beginning of the corruption. And the further she will lie the harder she will see the line where to stop lying to get her purpose (not having live damage to her). It is just the LF corruption that is beginning to show up.

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About Marillion, I believe that he was the one in the High Hall. But I can be wrong as many other times.

[Raksha the Demon]

Nice comments at the other site, just reinforces my thoughts that Sansa is Ned with curves and possibly more politically astute.

Oh please, let's hope the poor girl grows a political acumen, or she's toast - this is Westeros, after all! But I think she's made a very good start on understanding the political side of human nature, and the political map of Westeros (starting with King's Landing and the Eyrie/Vale). If she lives to grow up, she'll probably have a far greater understanding of politics and how to be a political player at 20 than Ned did at 35.

[Lyanna Stark]

About Marillion, I believe that he was the one in the High Hall. But I can be wrong as many other times.

True, it makes more sense if he is and regardless if the Marillion crackpotting will eventually turn something up, there is one thing we can be sure of due to the Marillion interrogation: Sansa does not trust Littlefinger to not scheme and lie. She even notes that the servants said Marillion's fingers had been cut off, but Sansa thinks that as she hasn't seen it herself, she can't be sure. A good indication that she's very wary of Littlefinger's plots.

Ultimately, I think she's going to make the choice based upon what will make her the happiest and what she feels she can't live without. Will she want the love of the people more than the love of one man (even if it's not Sandor)? Will she want either at all? Will either choice be "enough" for her? Because she might not be able to have both.

I agree with this. Like with Sweetrobin, I think Sansa will face a few temptations on her way. Jon Snow already faced at least two at the Wall: once when he wanted to ride south with Robb, and then he's offered Winterfell, a lordship and Val by Stannis.

Sansa's temptations may very well be to save or kill Sweetrobin and further on to make a grasp for power, or go into an arranged marriage with someone who can offer her a cushy life with lemoncakes, summersilks and pleasure barges on the <insert river here>. Hell, this last could even be a choice to stay married to Tyrion, if he manages to come back to Westeros with Dany as her "Hand".

EDIT: Just wanted to say as well, really enjoyed your theories on Septon Meribald and his dog, excellent work. :thumbsup:

The white cloak is the uniform of the King’s guards and symbolizes the unconditional protection that they swear to offer him until they die.

As I see it, at the exact moment when Sandor gives his cloak to Sansa, he switches side; his allegiance after that event is no longer to Joffery, but to Sansa. We know he no longer will die trying to protect his King, but is now ready to do it for Sansa… I don’t think he realized it, it’s one of those symbolic things that have a lot of importance is the ASOIAF story, but that the characters don’t seem to realize themselves.

When Sansa wrapped herself in Sandor’s cloak again, after the BW, the meaning is different as it’s her time to accept that she truly wants him to have a part in her life.

That's a really good way of looking at it! It also works so well that it took Sansa some time to accept it, and that she ponders if she didn't do the wrong thing to not go with him and how she keeps his cloak among her summer silks. And he really did switch sides as well, with the penultimate moment at the Battle of the Blackwater.

It also fits that he's angling towards a Stark allegiance while roaming around the Riverlands with Arya, although as with the Septon Meribald and Dog chapters, I think he can't just move from one to the next without "landing" in between, hence the QI. (Speaking of which, we had some major QI crackpotting in one of the Brienne and Jaime threads the other day, with me laying down why the QI could become Westeros answer to Mereen, i.e. "All roads lead to Rome" and what have you.)

[Lummel]

...- Petyr let Marillion sing, so he can lie. All sings are lies. A mockingbird sings (so tells lies). Sansa likes songs. That make some sense to any?...

Songs are an important theme in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Songs are about the transmission of tradition and memory (think say of the forgotten knight who has lost his memory who the BWB meet in ASOS, or the songs of the earth that the children sing).

But they are also about the creation of memory and tradition - in effect you can change the past by changing the song because the reality will be forgotten (see for instance the songs about the Battle of the Blackwater that are sung at Joffrey's wedding/last supper, theTyrell trick is forgotten and Renly been allowed to return by the Gods has become literally true). Sansa is associated with these types of songs - she likes these romantic songs but as Sandor points out the Romance isn't reality and as Littlefinger says life is not a song. So in ASOIAF GRRM is telling us there are two levels of fact, what actually happened and what will be remembered and that the latter is open to reinvention by interested parties, or in other words lies and fantasty can triumph over actuality and GRRM is warning us not to believe all the narrators telling stories in his book.

So it is not suprising that song is used, effectively, as a synonym for lie a couple of times in the story for example Qybern describes the Blue Bard after torture as singing the same sweet song as he had been taught. Marillon sings and so he lies. The question is how far Sansa still loves songs and believes them. Arya's disenchantment comes early, I'd say in AGOT when she sees the stark guardsman who said that one northern sword is worth ten southerners, but when does Sansa's disenchantment come?

[bgona]

Real life and history are full of lies and even centuries back is hard to find the truth of what had happened.

Now days it is a practice to teach kind of "invented" hidtory (twisting reality) to government interest. I believe that GRRM explaines in the saga his discomfort with this reality that had happened and, is happening and will still happening.

[Queen of Winter]

I’m not sure if it has been brought out before, but Sandor has already, in a way and certainly in a subconscious manner, pledged to protect Sansa…

Oh absolutely! :) And if you recall what I said about Sandor being a possible parallel with Ser Barristan, remember that Barristan loved Ashara Dayne, the younger sister of Arthur Dayne, though he knew nothing could come of his desire for her. He was going to crown her the Queen of Love and Beauty at the tourney at Harrenhall, except Rhaegar won, crowning Lyanna Stark. (I just hope something does come of Sansa/Sandor!)

I may seem I little esoteric, but I’m starting to think that, if Sandor is truly Lady’s replacement, he then should have some sort of connection with Sansa.

I don’t know how it’s going to turn out, but I could definitively see him being able to feel that she needs him and rushing at the right place to find her in an instinctive way…

I would sure like that.

Yes, I do think that he's a replacement for Lady as well. ;) As for the connection they might have with one another, this is what I was saying two chapter re-reads ago, when : "She awoke all at once, every nerve atingle." Sansa thought it might have been the snow that woke her, but I think it was Sandor's physical pain and being in distress when he was dying @ Saltpans . Sometimes two people seem to have inexplicable bonds, and I think this was an example of it.

Might Sandor be able to sense something is amiss with his little bird? Maybe. Unfortunately we never get a Sandor POV chapter, so we don't see inside his head. (Though I would think his thoughts would involve a lot of cursing, colorful remarks and some grouchiness). And yes, the sappy romantic in me would love it if Sandor rescued Sansa. :rolleyes: :blush:

I agree with this. Like with Sweetrobin, I think Sansa will face a few temptations on her way. Jon Snow already faced at least two at the Wall: once when he wanted to ride south with Robb, and then he's offered Winterfell, a lordship and Val by Stannis.

Sansa's temptations may very well be to save or kill Sweetrobin and further on to make a grasp for power, or go into an arranged marriage with someone who can offer her a cushy life with lemoncakes, summersilks and pleasure barges on the <insert river here>. Hell, this last could even be a choice to stay married to Tyrion, if he manages to come back to Westeros with Dany as her "Hand".

EDIT: Just wanted to say as well, really enjoyed your theories on Septon Meribald and his dog, excellent work. :thumbsup:

Thank you for the compliment Lyanna! :cheers:

I still can't see Sansa ending up with Tyrion, but I guess anything could happen! (Stands firmly in the San/San camp :rolleyes: ). Sometimes, I'm thinking in the end that family and being surrounded by the people she loves, is going to win out over being a Queen. Sansa still might be a great Lady though, running a castle or other holding.

Regarding Sansa and Sweetrobin: I think it depends on how much of LF's influence is going to color Sansa's thinking. Which is a very scary thought. Alayne might let LF kill Sweetrobin, whereas I don't think Sansa would. I just hope that Sansa doesn't lose sight of who she really is and what her core values are, when she's playing at being "Alayne" for the moment.

Speaking of, I'm really uncomfortable with the situation Sansa is in right now. While she is "smartening up" a bit about the world in general, I hope she won't confuse any lies that LF might be telling her with the actual truth. I don't think Sansa realizes just what a threat LF is to her personally (at least not yet), and that worries me. :unsure:

It also fits that he's angling towards a Stark allegiance while roaming around the Riverlands with Arya, although as with the Septon Meribald and Dog chapters, I think he can't just move from one to the next without "landing" in between, hence the QI. (Speaking of which, we had some major QI crackpotting in one of the Brienne and Jaime threads the other day, with me laying down why the QI could become Westeros answer to Mereen, i.e. "All roads lead to Rome" and what have you.)

I haven't read that thread about the QI (don't want it to ruin some of my theories!) but I have to say, I think there might be something up with those "monks". <_<

I agree with you that Sandor needs to "land somewhere", before he moves on to the next thing. Just from seeing his involvement with Sansa and Arya, I really do feel that he'll have some kind of alliance with the Starks, and will wind up serving them, essentially becoming part of their "pack". I had forgotten about this bit from an Arya chapter, at the beginning of ASOS, before she gets to Acorn Hall. She thinks this:

“I wish I had a good mean dog,” said Arya wistfully. “A lion-killing dog.” She’d had a direwolf once, Nymeria, but she’d thrown rocks at her until she fled, to keep the queen from killing her. Could a direwolf kill a lion? she wondered.

And a few chapters later Arya meets up with Sandor when he's captured by the Mad Huntsman (always thought it was hysterical that Sandor was captured by a man with a pack of dogs! :laugh: ) and brought to Harrenhall. A few chapters after that he "steals" her and they wind up travelling together.

[Lyanna Stark]

“I wish I had a good mean dog,” said Arya wistfully. “A lion-killing dog.” She’d had a direwolf once, Nymeria, but she’d thrown rocks at her until she fled, to keep the queen from killing her. Could a direwolf kill a lion? she wondered.

And a few chapters later Arya meets up with Sandor when he's captured by the Mad Huntsman (always thought it was hysterical that Sandor was captured by a man with a pack of dogs! :laugh: ) and brought to Harrenhall. A few chapters after that he "steals" her and they wind up travelling together.

Yes, I remember thinking that it may be a hint that Sandor could team up with the Starks. A "mean lion-killing dog" and why not?

Good catch also on him being captured by a man with a pack of dogs, that IS funny. :lol:

Regarding the QI and what it could mean: we know that GRRM means for a lot of the POVs to get consolidated in TWOW. Mereen already has a couple of POVs (Dany's, Barristan's, and Tyrion's) with Victarion's incoming. Mereen is also a a convenient place to have everyone relevant meet, including important non POV characters like Jorah. The Wall and Winterfell are two other "consolidating" locations.

In the Riverlands or nearby, we have Brienne and Jaime, who are already linked up. As for non-POV characters, we have Pod, Gendry, Hyle,UnCat and Sandor. Fairly nearby in the Vale, we have Sansa, Sweetrobin and LF. The Blackfish is AWOL, possibly somewhere in this area as well.

It's likely that a bunch of these will have to hook up in order for the storylines to make sense, and the QI is a good place to "park" character while the story catches up since it's out of the way.

Anyways, to stop rambling, yes I think a lot of these characters will have to link up and soon. Hopefully with Sansa and Arya too as I think there has been enough hints that it would be really disappointing if it didn't happen. :)

[Queen of Winter]

Yes, I remember thinking that it may be a hint that Sandor could team up with the Starks. A "mean lion-killing dog" and why not?

Definitely. I think we've touched on it before but there's the famous:

"I’m done with their city, done with their Kingsguard, done with Lannisters. What’s a dog to do with lions, I ask you?”

Good catch also on him being captured by a man with a pack of dogs, that IS funny. :lol:

And they were pretty fierce dogs too! (Clip from the Mad Huntsman returning to Harrenhall) :

Down below, in the square, the dogs were barking, running in circles, growling and howling. There was a pack of them, great black mastiffs and lean wolfhounds and black-and-white sheepdogs and kinds Arya did not know, shaggy brindled beasts with long yellow teeth. Between the inn and the fountain, a dozen riders sat astride their horses, watching the townsmen open the fat man’s cage and tug his arm until his swollen corpse spilled out onto the ground. The dogs were at him at once, tearing chunks of flesh off his bones.

Man, I would have liked to have seen how they got a hold of Sandor! That would've made for great reading! :laugh:

Regarding the QI and what it could mean: we know that GRRM means for a lot of the POVs to get consolidated in TWOW. Mereen already has a couple of POVs (Dany's, Barristan's, and Tyrion's) with Victarion's incoming. Mereen is also a a convenient place to have everyone relevant meet, including important non POV characters like Jorah. The Wall and Winterfell are two other "consolidating" locations.

In the Riverlands or nearby, we have Brienne and Jaime, who are already linked up. As for non-POV characters, we have Pod, Gendry, Hyle,UnCat and Sandor. Fairly nearby in the Vale, we have Sansa, Sweetrobin and LF. The Blackfish is AWOL, possibly somewhere in this area as well.

It's likely that a bunch of these will have to hook up in order for the storylines to make sense, and the QI is a good place to "park" character while the story catches up since it's out of the way.

Yes, very true. I agree that story lines are going to have to start converging in TWOW (I've got some ideas, but more on those later), or else we might be looking at eight books instead of seven (though I think that might happen anyway).

[brashcandy]

Isn't it funny that Arya is the one encountering the wild, bad dogs, whilst Sansa is spending time with old, blind ones? :)

[Queen of Winter]

Isn't it funny that Arya is the one encountering the wild, bad dogs, whilst Sansa is spending time with old, blind ones? :)

Perhaps a bit of foreshadowing here for Sansa ? ;) :rolleyes:

[brashcandy]

Perhaps a bit of foreshadowing here for Sansa ? ;) :rolleyes:

Perhaps, perhaps :) BTW, Qow, coughwaitinganxiouslytoreadaboutthecavescough. ;)

[Queen of Winter]

Perhaps, perhaps :) BTW, Qow, coughwaitinganxiouslytoreadaboutthecavescough. ;)

:lol: You slave driver! :whip:

I hope to have it up a bit later today, brash! Just need to give it one more read through.... :read:

I just hope the site doesn't take a nosedive considering they're airing another episode tonight! :unsure:

[Raksha the Demon]

Oh absolutely! :) And if you recall what I said about Sandor being a possible parallel with Ser Barristan, remember that Barristan loved Ashara Dayne, the younger sister of Arthur Dayne, though he knew nothing could come of his desire for her. He was going to crown her the Queen of Love and Beauty at the tourney at Harrenhall, except Rhaegar won, crowning Lyanna Stark. (I just hope something does come of Sansa/Sandor!)

Yes, I do think that he's a replacement for Lady as well. ;) As for the connection they might have with one another, this is what I was saying two chapter re-reads ago, when : "She awoke all at once, every nerve atingle." Sansa thought it might have been the snow that woke her, but I think it was Sandor's physical pain and being in distress when he was dying @ Saltpans . Sometimes two people seem to have inexplicable bonds, and I think this was an example of it.

Might Sandor be able to sense something is amiss with his little bird? Maybe. Unfortunately we never get a Sandor POV chapter, so we don't see inside his head. (Though I would think his thoughts would involve a lot of cursing, colorful remarks and some grouchiness). And yes, the sappy romantic in me would love it if Sandor rescued Sansa. :rolleyes: :blush:

Thank you for the compliment Lyanna! :cheers:

I still can't see Sansa ending up with Tyrion, but I guess anything could happen! (Stands firmly in the San/San camp :rolleyes: ). Sometimes, I'm thinking in the end that family and being surrounded by the people she loves, is going to win out over being a Queen. Sansa still might be a great Lady though, running a castle or other holding.

Regarding Sansa and Sweetrobin: I think it depends on how much of LF's influence is going to color Sansa's thinking. Which is a very scary thought. Alayne might let LF kill Sweetrobin, whereas I don't think Sansa would. I just hope that Sansa doesn't lose sight of who she really is and what her core values are, when she's playing at being "Alayne" for the moment.

Speaking of, I'm really uncomfortable with the situation Sansa is in right now. While she is "smartening up" a bit about the world in general, I hope she won't confuse any lies that LF might be telling her with the actual truth. I don't think Sansa realizes just what a threat LF is to her personally (at least not yet), and that worries me. :unsure:

I haven't read that thread about the QI (don't want it to ruin some of my theories!) but I have to say, I think there might be something up with those "monks". <_<

I agree with you that Sandor needs to "land somewhere", before he moves on to the next thing. Just from seeing his involvement with Sansa and Arya, I really do feel that he'll have some kind of alliance with the Starks, and will wind up serving them, essentially becoming part of their "pack". I had forgotten about this bit from an Arya chapter, at the beginning of ASOS, before she gets to Acorn Hall. She thinks this:

“I wish I had a good mean dog,” said Arya wistfully. “A lion-killing dog.” She’d had a direwolf once, Nymeria, but she’d thrown rocks at her until she fled, to keep the queen from killing her. Could a direwolf kill a lion? she wondered.

And a few chapters later Arya meets up with Sandor when he's captured by the Mad Huntsman (always thought it was hysterical that Sandor was captured by a man with a pack of dogs! :laugh: ) and brought to Harrenhall. A few chapters after that he "steals" her and they wind up travelling together.

I don't think that Sansa realizes, at least not completely, the sexual threat that Littlefinger personally presents to her. She's still living moment-to-moment, which is understandable, considering her circumstances of the past two years or so. Also, at Sansa's age and level of sexual experience, she would not yet fully comprehend the nuances of sexuality and the signs of potential sexual predation - and LF has been fairly subtle. No teenager would be thinking about future sexual behavior unless they're already in a sexual relationship where they have to use their sexuality to gain/maintain an advantage; which we hope that Sansa will not be in for at least a few years and not with Littlefinger, and not without mutual love or at least respect!

Sadly, I think the chances of Sansa confusing and blurring the lines between herself and Alayne, and believing more of what Littlefinger tells her, are pretty good. He's got her isolated from the world, afraid to talk to people who have actually been outside the Eyrie (such as the lords of the Vale), he's the one giving her the information that Sansa is using to define her circumstances. I thought it scary that she did not know that Tyrion had escaped after killing Tywin - that's a pretty significant bit of news for her, considering that she's Tyrion's wife. And yes, I agree that Alayne could kill SweetRobin, or at least be a willing and knowledgeable participant in his death.

A San/San future for her? Count me in as skeptical. I definitely think they will meet again; but I believe any romantic relationship between Sandor and a slightly older Sansa will be short-term. It could be something for future bards though, the Song of the Hound and the Little Bird.

Unless Sandor gets religion and ends up becoming High Septon. Which could be amusing. But then, think of Abelard and Heloise...

[Queen of Winter]

A San/San future for her? Count me in as skeptical. I definitely think they will meet again; but I believe any romantic relationship between Sandor and a slightly older Sansa will be short-term. It could be something for future bards though, the Song of the Hound and the Little Bird.

Yeah, I don't know if it will happen, but I'm holding firm to hope! :) And yes I've often thought the song of "The Hound and the Little Bird" would be great for them.

Unless Sandor gets religion and ends up becoming High Septon. Which could be amusing. But then, think of Abelard and Heloise...

True, there is that! :lol: But I can't imagine Sandor "finding" religion, however if Sansa ever becomes Queen, I can see him becoming her sworn shield and perhaps they have an affair. (Though I don't think Sandor is the kind of man who would want to share, assuming she has a husband). I can also see them having that courtly love thing going on as well.

[Queen of Winter]

Like myself, I know brashcandy was intrigued by the caves mentioned in ASOIAF, especially the cave on the Fingers.

So.... I've been doing a little thinking about them. I guess you could call some of this crackpot. I don't know if any of this might have true merit, but I thought it was worth a go.

Since we don't know what the heck is in that cave on the Fingers, I wanted to explore what caves or the presence of caves, might represent or what role they might play in Sansa's story arc.

First, there are many references to caves in Greek mythology; to name a few:

Cronus (the leader and the youngest of the first generation of Titans,) was placed in a cave in the deepest part of the Underworld, for waging war against his father. The Underworld, (also called Hades), is said to be the abode of the dead.

Rhea ("the mother of gods") the wife of Cronus, after giving birth, hid their son Zeus, in a cave on Mount Ida ("Mountain of the Goddess"), to hide him from his father.

Pan (the god of the wild, shepherds and flocks, nature, of mountain wilds, as well as the companion of the nymphs) was not worshipped in temples or other built edifices, but in natural settings, usually caves or grottoes. *Curious enough-- According to the Greek historian Plutarch, Pan is the only Greek god (other than Asclepius) who actually 'dies'. Christian apologists, however, took Plutarch's notice to heart, and repeated and amplified it until the 18th century. It was interpreted. ..literally as historical fact, and allegorically as the death of the ancient order at the coming of the new.

Also: In ancient times caves were used for burial purposes in the eastern Mediterranean, in conjunction with underground shrines or temples. The priests and the priestesses exerted considerable influence upon the world of the living. Births are also recorded in such shrines, and the Greek legend of conception and birth in the tomb – as in the story of Danae is based on the ancient belief that the dead know the future.

A few other examples:

I think that a woman's womb can also be said to be a sort of "cave".

In Christianity, Jesus Christ was placed in a cave/sepulchre after he died and was subsequently resurrected.

Also noted in folklore, dragons are thought to reside in caves, as well as hide their treasure (usually gold) there. (OK, I just had to throw in the dragon reference! :P )

Now, in the ASOIAF world there are more than a few caves.

We know there's a cave on the Fingers, where Petyr Baelish stated he was told his fortune by an old hermit, when he was a young boy:

“Mine own smallfolk,” Petyr said, though only the oldest seemed to know him. There was a hermit’s cave on his land as well, but no hermit. “He’s dead now, but when I was a boy my father took me to see him. The man had not washed in forty years, so you can imagine how he smelled, but supposedly he had the gift of prophecy. He groped me a bit and said I would be a great man, and for that my father gave him a skin of wine.”

There is also a cave on the Quiet Isle, The Hermit's Hole. You’ll recall this is where Brienne met the Elder Brother, when she went there with Septon Meribald:

“It is called the Hermit’s Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later.”

And Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow, is hidden away inside a cave as well, now part of a Weirwood Tree. That cave is north of the Wall.

It's also said that the Children of the Forest reside in caves.

Finally, there's one more I want to mention: the crypts of Winterfell.

It seems most of what we see of caves in ASOIAF, might be linked to:

1. The Mystical/Supernatural (oracles/prophets/greenseers,etc) and/or;

2. The Life Cycle (birth/life/death/possible rebirth)

If you notice, most of the places I mentioned above could be considered to be fairly remote and out of the way. Apparently the Quiet Isle can be hard to get to, even during low tide.

What I find interesting about the Quiet Isle is this bit from AFFC, when Brienne arrives there:

“Do you have no women here?”

“Not at present,” said Narbert. “Those women who do visit come to us sick or hurt, or heavy with child. The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cure, and many a woman too.”

In the beginning of my post, I mentioned Rhea from Greek mythology, Rhea gave birth to Zeus on Crete (which is an island).

I do have crackpot theories about this one, but if you take the cave interpretations literally, could it be that we'll see someone give birth in a cave? Or perhaps hide a child in one, even if they themselves aren't the mother?

Or perhaps something might happen on the Quiet Isle? (Lyanna mentioned in another post that it seems the QI might wind up being like Mereen/Winterfell/the Wall--a gathering place of sorts for storylines to converge).

Curious, since we have been talking about bastard and legitimate children as of late and Sansa's thoughts about them and marriage.

As for having a child in a cave, I don't even want to think about that happening to poor Sansa (especially seeing how LF feels about her). I do feel at some point, he's going to push his luck with her, that he might try and seduce her or force himself on her. I would hope she's becoming smart enough so she can begin to see through LF and avoid the situation.

When it comes to hiding a child in a cave, I was thinking of Sansa and Sweetrobin here, if she decides to somehow try and stop him from being slowly poisoned. And she is a somewhat of a surrogate mother to him. If she manages to flee, will she try to protect him, taking him with her? Or maybe she can get him to the QI?

However, if you look at caves in a figurative way "birth" (or death/rebirth), could mean something else, like a "spiritual rebirth" or a sort of metamorphosis of character, or even a physical transformation from one form into something else, similar to how a caterpillar becomes a butterfly.

For example: Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow, entered the cave above the Wall as a mortal man, and eventually became one with forest, now part of an actual Weirwood tree.

I guess you could even use Petyr's story as an example, using both the mystical and figurative explanations: the hermit stated he would be a great man, and Petyr subsequently raised himself from a minor house to where he is today. But since caves also represent the Underworld, could it mean that LF might meet an end in one?

Sandor would be another example, using the Quiet Isle. We all know what kind of man he was before being found by the Elder Brother in Saltpans. I'm assuming Sandor is going to have a "re-birth" of his own, possibly becoming the man he was meant to be.

If Sansa winds up living on the Fingers for a little while, where that cave is, it could also allude to a longer transformation into Alayne Stone or someone else, if she decides to drop the Alayne persona.

As for the crypts of Winterfell, I thought this was interesting:

The Legend of Bael the Bard (some parts paraphrased from the wiki):, states he was once called a coward by Brandon Stark (another earlier Stark, and not Ned's brother). He disguised himself as a bard and entered Winterfell, performing for Lord Stark. Stark was impressed and asked him what he wanted as a reward. Bael only asked for the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens, the blue winter roses. Stark accepted to offer him one, yet the following morning, the single, virgin daughter of the lord had disappeared, and in her bed was the blue winter rose.

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night's Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found neither Bael nor the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her hand an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell staying hidden in the crypts.

Could we possibly see something similar play out again?

Edit: Also forgot that there is a bird called the Rhea (it's similar to an ostrich) :)

[brashcandy]

Bravo Queen of Winter! You promised, you delivered and you did not disappoint :) That was a lot to chew on, and I have to be off to the party, but I'll return with more on what you've explored.

[bgona]

...Pan (the god of the wild, shepherds and flocks, nature, of mountain wilds, as well as the companion of the nymphs) was not worshipped in temples or other built edifices, but in natural settings, usually caves or grottoes. *Curious enough-- According to the Greek historian Plutarch, Pan is the only Greek god (other than Asclepius) who actually 'dies'. Christian apologists, however, took Plutarch's notice to heart, and repeated and amplified it until the 18th century. It was interpreted. ..literally as historical fact, and allegorically as the death of the ancient order at the coming of the new.

Christ is also represented as a Lamb.

Also: In ancient times caves were used for burial purposes in the eastern Mediterranean, in conjunction with underground shrines or temples. The priests and the priestesses exerted considerable influence upon the world of the living. Births are also recorded in such shrines, and the Greek legend of conception and birth in the tomb – as in the story of Danae is based on the ancient belief that the dead know the future.

That reminds me of birds as messenger of the deaths.

As for the crypts of Winterfell, I thought this was interesting:

The Legend of Bael the Bard (some parts paraphrased from the wiki):, states he was once called a coward by Brandon Stark (another earlier Stark, and not Ned's brother). He disguised himself as a bard and entered Winterfell, performing for Lord Stark. Stark was impressed and asked him what he wanted as a reward. Bael only asked for the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens, the blue winter roses. Stark accepted to offer him one, yet following morning, the single, virgin daughter of the lord had disappeared, and in her bed was the blue winter rose.

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night's Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found neither Bael nor the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her hand an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell staying hidden in the crypts.

Could we possibly see something similar play out again?

Rickon??

[bgona]

Just a question: how many times have you read ASOIAF? Right now just once and doing this reread. I´m trying to do a whole reread, but I can´t get enough time.

All of you seems that you have already done more than one. Hope not to be the only one with one reread.

----------------

Also I must say it: I´m really impressed of the level of writing and thinking of all of you. I just feel like a person that normally can only highlight thoughts, but I am learning so much from all that I can keep it and I must tell you thank you.

The way all of you express makes me try to improve.

[The Lost Lord]

Great post, Raksha. I generally agree with your thoughts on Sansa's future and her relationship with Sweetrobin and LF and I'm sure this will be a topic of discussion going forward with the sweetsleep and so on.

I thought it scary that she did not know that Tyrion had escaped after killing Tywin - that's a pretty significant bit of news for her, considering that she's Tyrion's wife.

On this, I thought the news had just not reached the Eyrie yet about Tywin's death and Tyrion's escape. Later on in AFFC it's clear that Sansa knows Tyrion is alive -- when LF suggests the Harry betrothal, and Sansa responds "I am married," and LF says the marriage must wait until she's "safely widowed."

[1234567]

It's a pity we never see her reaction to finding out Tyrion is not dead.