From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[Caro99]

Great job Raspie with the analysis of the chapter! And so many other good points were mentioned as well so far!

The first Alayne chapter… Wonder how many will there be when the books end?

Anyways, this chapter always makes me recall Arya back in her very first chapter when she said she didn’t think Sansa would be very good at running a household. Another difference between Alayne and Sansa. But the fact that she can still know every house sigil in Westeros ever since the first book speaks volumes to her possible foreshadowing as queen, or the next Varys, or LF’s apprentice or the wife of a great lord. Whatever happens, we can see that she has a great political ability. It will be interesting to see if she will choose to give it up for a much simpler life.

I hope we can see Sansa come back in the future. I like Alayne a lot but to lose Sansa for ever is devastating. It’s not like with Sandor who has possibly voluntarily chosen to give up his Hound persona after being in the QI. Sansa is being forced to lose herself in Alyane, so staying like this forever just seems wrong to me. Hopefully what George meant with, “Why the Hound is dead and Sansa may be dead as well,” means that Sansa will come back to us. I mean, could Alayne be considered a wolf? The Starks have to survive- remember “A time for wolves”?

Speaking of Sandor, I love how she can still recall how tall Sandor was <3 & I liked this sentence, “She tossed and turned, worrying at it like a dog at some old bone.” Another reference to her and dogs. I had seen the relation she makes between Lord Royce and Sandor, but not how she related Waymar Royce with desire and Waymar is the son of the man she thinks stands as tall as the Hound.. Little hints like this make me happy... I’ve always thought that the only other person whom Stranger could take a liking to would besides from Sandor would be Sansa… :P

Unfortunately I just can’t think of what will happen with her and Harry the Heir, but regarding Aegon as a future husband… I don’t have anything against Aegon but I want Sansa to marry a man, not a boy who smells of summer. I think someone like Arianne Martell would do just fine with a lover who was younger than her, but I’ve never seen Sansa in the future in my mind with a young man I guess. It’s like what Lyanna Stark said, “She has definitely divorced herself from her old self and her old thoughts of songs and romance with pretty, pretty princes…”

But then again, The Lost Lord said this, “…In the very end of the series… will a pair of nonmagical, pragmatically, very human rulers end up uniting the northern and southern kingdoms with their political marriage, and rebuilding the continent?” I can’t deny this does not appeal to me. It makes me think of the legends of Camelot, but I am not sure if Aegon could be a “King Arthur”..?

Now about the gowns: I also see the purple gown being her first option as the first role we saw her playing in the books. Purple is for kings and we first met her when she was engaged to marry the future king. But it could also mean that she was married to Tyrion who could for all we know end up the king of the 7 kingdoms, or that she will be aegon’s queen. QoW, maybe the second dress she wore could mean her future with Brienne since you mentioned the Tarth shield...? But I totally liked her choosing the 3^rd gown to foreshadow house Clegane. Yet I had always assumed she had just chosen it since it was simple and a bastard can’t dress above her station, and she is supposed to have been training to become a septa, so nothing too flashy would be most likely to her taste. But I love how Sansa Clegane sounds!! :bowdown: :rolleyes: :wub:

Lost Lord I think you are right. We see that Sansa wants to flee twice in this chapter, but Alyane reminds her that she can’t. Sansa did appear in the morning, which I think it’s only natural since I figure she went out to admire the landscape so she could be alone and put on the mask of Alayne. Then when she wonders if she ought to reveal herself, alayne quickly stifles Sansa. Adreamer mentioned something similar as well.

& Queen of Spades, yeah Lf is advising her about playing the game, but it also just shows that in case the forgets, he is there to constantly remind her that she has to be Alayne always, so he can have her more at his mercy, I think. :ack:

About the Royce family… Yes, We Remember sounds a lot like The North Remembers, so maybe Lord Royce will remember a kindness Ned did to him, or simply that Myranda will try to help Sansa escape cause of a favor Alayne helps her with..? :dunno:

& last but not least, it would be great to have Sansa’s first chapter in TWoW starting with her warging a little bird, but now she can feel something is out of place, and so we get her reaction to it. I also like her resemblance to a bird who has been trapped inside a golden cage. Almost all the bird in the storied I think manage to fly away in the end. So I’ll like for Sansa to actually warg a bird or her warging to be only the metaphor her life was- not sure if that made sense, sorry… How nice would it be for the Stark who has been considered the “one with the less chances of wargin” to have warg Sandor without knowing it first in life her first “try” when Bran didn’t warg another human being until some months after he found out about his gift.

Whatever happens LF simply won’t last, it is known. Harrenhal is cursed and hopefully when Alayne finds out how he betrayed Ned Sansa will return to us and then LF… beware! ;)

[ctas]

nevermind

[Grail King]

I like to find out how Sansa will find out LF betrayed her father and family, if this past week episode is any indication the word was spreading from KL by people who were there.

So who would most likely get her that info? Sandor?

[brashcandy]

I like to find out how Sansa will find out LF betrayed her father and family, if this past week episode is any indication the word was spreading from KL by people who were there.

So who would most likely get her that info? Sandor?

Well we would like to hope that Sansa would find this out in the book, but who knows what Martin will write, and basing anything off the tv show (which btw we can't discuss in these book sections) is a sure path to insanity :) Sandor was privy to a lot of the backstage shenanigans though, so yeah, he could be the one.

[voodooqueen126]

Well we would like to hope that Sansa would find this out in the book, but who knows what Martin will write, and basing anything off the tv show (which btw we can't discuss in these book sections) is a sure path to insanity :) Sandor was privy to a lot of the backstage shenanigans though, so yeah, he could be the one.

Sandor was in the room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sandor was in the room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned.

Yep, and he cut down some poor northern soldier is his standard fashion (i.e. "nearly in half"), it's noted in Ned's chapter.

[1234567]

Yep, and he cut down some poor northern soldier is his standard fashion (i.e. "nearly in half"), it's noted in Ned's chapter.

The same move Brandon Stark used when he left LF with that scar right down his front. Part of me really wants Sandor to use that Scar as a guideline of where to cut. :)

[Elba the Intoner]

I imagine Sansa finding out a lot about LF through her warging a bird. Perhaps she flies around and sees some letters he is writing or overhears a conversation about LF or with LF that gives some big thing away. That's what I first thought of when I tried to come up with a nidea of how Sansa might learn about LF's betrayal, but who knows?

@ adreamer - I loved the meanings of the Falcon symbol that you gave us the link for! Every aspect of it totally applies to Sansa's situation and rising above her current situation to become a leader is exactly what I want for her.

[Grail King]

with the way things look now I think Sansa is going to need help getting out from LF, she seems to be falling into a freeze pattern, afraid to make any move because she can't seem to put her trust into anyone. It's a shame really, she knows which house should be loyal to her family either as true banner men or by way of family marriages and friendship yet can't seem to get a hint from any of them that they are willing to help.

I was really upset we didn't get at least 1 or 2 chapters on her in ADWD, I hope she is the preview chapter in the ADWD paperback, I think the person who may help her escape would be Maya Stone I think she would know the area like the back of her hand and could hide her and provide food to her, BYR will help her but he needs more proof or Sansa has to take that leap of faith and open up to him, and then there is the Mad Mouse who would do it for the money, my thinking Maya because she's a "bastard" and so is sansa at the moment, Maya is someone Sansa can empathize with.

[Queen of Winter]

QoW, maybe the second dress she wore could mean her future with Brienne since you mentioned the Tarth shield...? But I totally liked her choosing the 3^rd gown to foreshadow house Clegane. Yet I had always assumed she had just chosen it since it was simple and a bastard can’t dress above her station, and she is supposed to have been training to become a septa, so nothing too flashy would be most likely to her taste.

Well I don't know how much of a "future" Brienne might have regarding Sansa's arc (I feel Brienne's fate is tied in w. Jaime's to an extent), but I think Brienne, Jaime and Sandor are similar to the three Knights of the Round Table who are on the Grail Quest. Those knights are Galahad, Bors and Percival.

Jaime and Sandor's wounds also make me think of the "dolorous stroke" (and well perhaps Brienne's facial injury too, but we don't see much of her in ADWD, so we don't know how it might change her). Granted neither of them are Kings, but their woundings, Jaime's hand and Sandor's thigh, does deal them both a heavy blow that changes them. These wounds trigger "re-births" of their respective characters.

(But yes, I too, like the idea of her choosing the simple dress with "Clegane-like" colors). ;)

But I love how Sansa Clegane sounds.

It definitely sounds better than Alayne Clegane! (which rhymes wayyyy too much!) :lol: :P

[Lyanna Stark]

with the way things look now I think Sansa is going to need help getting out from LF, she seems to be falling into a freeze pattern, afraid to make any move because she can't seem to put her trust into anyone. It's a shame really, she knows which house should be loyal to her family either as true banner men or by way of family marriages and friendship yet can't seem to get a hint from any of them that they are willing to help.

If we assume that Sansa is turning into Littlefinger Lite though, she will need to, like him, move pieces as the player. That means she can't rely on others to "help" her, she needs to *make* them help her.

For all I know, it may be some time before she kills LF (I'm convinced she will! or that she will at least bring about his downfall by someone else's hand), since it seems if it happens in a castle of snow, that may indicate that she goes to Winterfell before that happens, but I can't see LF allying himself with Stannis of all people, so we may see Sansa under LF's (little?) thumb for another novel perhaps?

Regarding surnames, can't Sansa keep her old name even while married? She certainly didn't think of herself as "Sansa Lannister" while married to Tyrion. She may be "Lady Lannister" but still "Sansa Stark", Cat was "Lady Stark" but many seem to refer to her as "Catelyn Tully" regardless. Cersei was never as far as I remember referred to as "Cersei Baratheon" it was always "Cersei Lannister".

[Maroucia]

Regarding surnames, can't Sansa keep her old name even while married? She certainly didn't think of herself as "Sansa Lannister" while married to Tyrion. She may be "Lady Lannister" but still "Sansa Stark", Cat was "Lady Stark" but many seem to refer to her as "Catelyn Tully" regardless. Cersei was never as far as I remember referred to as "Cersei Baratheon" it was always "Cersei Lannister".

As much as I would love for Sansa and Sandor to end up together, I really prefer the sound of Sansa Stark than the one of Sansa Clagane.

Whatever happens in the future, I truly hope that she keeps her family name. By the end of the story, after everything she will have been through, I’m sure she’ll wish to regain her full identity, and a name is a big part of it.

[Queen of Spades]

If she wants to claim Winterfell, I feel she should stay a Stark.

The Northmen will never unite around a Lady-other-than-Stark (and remember Stannis : "I have heard enough of Lady Lannister and her claim."). Besides, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell ! ^_^

However, when Rickon (or Bran for all I know) comes back with a better claim than hers, she could totally go back to a simpler life with some big burned guy... :wub:

[Queen of Winter]

If she wants to claim Winterfell, I feel she should stay a Stark.

The Northmen will never unite around a Lady-other-than-Stark (and remember Stannis : "I have heard enough of Lady Lannister and her claim."). Besides, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell ! ^_^

Ahhh..but technically there are always Starks in Winterfell.....they're in the crypts. ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

The Northmen will never unite around a Lady-other-than-Stark (and remember Stannis : "I have heard enough of Lady Lannister and her claim."). Besides, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell ! ^_^

I think Sansa would agree with Stannis though. She's probably heard even more about her claim to Winterfell and is probably even more tired of it.

Sansa_as_Castellan or Regent for Rickon does not need to be a Stark though. It does not matter whether she is married or unmarried while doing so. In fact it would probably be more advantageous if she was either unmarried or married to someone without lands of his own if she means to rule the North until Rickon comes of age. (Or a Baelish widow, although this option makes me feel really queasy :ack: )

I guess in the end it will depends on what Sansa wants out of life. With LF's tutelage she should be savvy enough to be able to make a play for some castle and/or title other than Winterfell if she wanted to, but after all that has happened, I have to wonder if Sansa and Arya will really just want to reunite their family.

[Queen of Spades]

(Or a Baelish widow, although this option makes me feel really queasy :ack: )

I do not thank you for bringing this notion to my mind ! :stillsick:

[Elba the Intoner]

Continuing with the Sansa bird warging theme... Bran can warg into birds too, I wonder if they would be able to somehow connect if Sansa finally manages to warg into a little bird? ...

It's possible if I remember correctly. After the prologue of ADWD when Varamyr is in the wolf, there is a Bran chapter where he is warging summer and he comes across the wolf and realizes there is a warg there. So, it seems that two wargs could meet up in their warged state.

Wasn't there a harp player on the QI? When they were eating in the main dining area

Rhaeger liked playing the harp

Yes, I believe you are correct!

(Keeping my fingers crossed that multiquote worked. I have been trying to figure out how to do this for two months now).

ETA Yay! It worked.

[Raksha the Demon]

with the way things look now I think Sansa is going to need help getting out from LF, she seems to be falling into a freeze pattern, afraid to make any move because she can't seem to put her trust into anyone. It's a shame really, she knows which house should be loyal to her family either as true banner men or by way of family marriages and friendship yet can't seem to get a hint from any of them that they are willing to help.

I was really upset we didn't get at least 1 or 2 chapters on her in ADWD, I hope she is the preview chapter in the ADWD paperback, I think the person who may help her escape would be Maya Stone I think she would know the area like the back of her hand and could hide her and provide food to her, BYR will help her but he needs more proof or Sansa has to take that leap of faith and open up to him, and then there is the Mad Mouse who would do it for the money, my thinking Maya because she's a "bastard" and so is sansa at the moment, Maya is someone Sansa can empathize with.

It was quietly heartbreaking to see Sansa longing to reveal herself to Bronze Yohn and ask for her protection and then decide not to because she thinks Royce won't help her, since he didn't help Robb. Her memories of Bronze Yohn as one of her father's bannerman and a guest in Winterfell are particularly poignant; especially because she so wants to reach out to him; he reprises the sounds and sights of her childhood and family. And Sansa talks herself out of reaching out to him and reclaiming her identity, thinking Winterfell is fallen.

The Lannisters, Tyrells, and now Littlefinger have done terrible things to Sansa; and have robbed her of her identity as well as her father, brother and home. They have also decimated her ability to trust people. Sansa's clinging to Littlefinger, a man who makes her uncomfortable, because he is the only one who can protect her at this time, and because he is emotionally/verbally deceiving her and isolating her from other people who might be able to help her.

If, hopefully when, Alayne makes her move to escape her gilded cage and perhaps become Sansa once more, she could make some kind of bargain with Lothar Brune to help her (and/or bring down Littlefinger) in return for setting him up with Mya Stone. I think a friendship with Mya would be invaluable to Sansa; and it would be lovely to see the daughters of Robert and Ned drawn together in common goals and respect. But I think Myranda Royce would be delighted to help Alayne leave the Eyrie/Vale; because I'm betting that Myranda would love to have a shot at marrying Harry-the-Heir, and Alayne stands in her way.

I wouldn't trust the Mad Mouse at all; he'd kidnap Sansa and head back with her toward King's Landing in hopes of collecting a fat reward.

I did enjoy seeing Alayne active in the role she was raised to perform, mistress of a Great House (at the moment, Alayne is the de facto Lady of the Eyrie); supervising servants, preparing the Eyrie for the gathering of the bannermen. She does a good job; and though being the lady of a great house is not as flashy a role as being a Faceless assassin or a reaver, it does take a certain amount of intelligence and perception. I hope that she will one day have that role as Sansa Stark, and also exert political and familial influence, whether as a Lady or a Queen.

[Grail King]

It was quietly heartbreaking to see Sansa longing to reveal herself to Bronze Yohn and ask for her protection and then decide not to because she thinks Royce won't help her, since he didn't help Robb. Her memories of Bronze Yohn as one of her father's bannerman and a guest in Winterfell are particularly poignant; especially because she so wants to reach out to him; he reprises the sounds and sights of her childhood and family. And Sansa talks herself out of reaching out to him and reclaiming her identity, thinking Winterfell is fallen.

The Lannisters, Tyrells, and now Littlefinger have done terrible things to Sansa; and have robbed her of her identity as well as her father, brother and home. They have also decimated her ability to trust people. Sansa's clinging to Littlefinger, a man who makes her uncomfortable, because he is the only one who can protect her at this time, and because he is emotionally/verbally deceiving her and isolating her from other people who might be able to help her.

If, hopefully when, Alayne makes her move to escape her gilded cage and perhaps become Sansa once more, she could make some kind of bargain with Lothar Brune to help her (and/or bring down Littlefinger) in return for setting him up with Mya Stone. I think a friendship with Mya would be invaluable to Sansa; and it would be lovely to see the daughters of Robert and Ned drawn together in common goals and respect. But I think Myranda Royce would be delighted to help Alayne leave the Eyrie/Vale; because I'm betting that Myranda would love to have a shot at marrying Harry-the-Heir, and Alayne stands in her way.

I wouldn't trust the Mad Mouse at all; he'd kidnap Sansa and head back with her toward King's Landing in hopes of collecting a fat reward.

I did enjoy seeing Alayne active in the role she was raised to perform, mistress of a Great House (at the moment, Alayne is the de facto Lady of the Eyrie); supervising servants, preparing the Eyrie for the gathering of the bannermen. She does a good job; and though being the lady of a great house is not as flashy a role as being a Faceless assassin or a reaver, it does take a certain amount of intelligence and perception. I hope that she will one day have that role as Sansa Stark, and also exert political and familial influence, whether as a Lady or a Queen.

But her dad is beholden to LF, I know she wants Harry but could she be trusted?

I don't trust the MM for a moment, but if he trys to take her and gets away than BYR could capture both of them and then Sansa may feel she could tell him who she really is.

I think it still could be MS, but I be happy if it was anyone as long as she got herself free to be Sansa.

[Maroucia]

I wouldn't trust the Mad Mouse at all; he'd kidnap Sansa and head back with her toward King's Landing in hopes of collecting a fat reward.

This is one of the DOZENS of elements that are in play right now in Sansa’s storyline… I can’t wait to know how it will turn out. That guy is there for a reason, GRRM didn’t put him in the Vale just to decorate.

Sansa’s situation is going to be turned upside down in many ways in TWOW! :eek: