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Thunderfist

[Book Spoilers] I´m starting to love Tywin Lannister

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this is how it happened in the books after all, except it was Cersei who demanded it instead of Tywin. And it worked.

" You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime.”

Except, of course, that Ned did neither. Seems relevant.

And solid point SerArthurHeath.

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It's got nothing to do with a proportionate response- by kidnapping one then the other of Tywin's sons, the Starks and Tullys declared war on the Lannisters and any actions are acts of war. Not that the acts would necessarily be seen as ethical in war even in Medieval times (though I think Tywin's tactics are pretty standard ones for that era), but war doesn't work in a "you attacked this town so I'll attack yours, an eye for an eye..." approach. It's both sides all out trying to defeat each other doing whatever they think is necessary and acceptable. There is no such thing as a proportional response unless Tywin didn't want to go to war for whatever reason, but it is perfectly justifiable from a noble's point of view to go to war when another House steals your heir

Jaime was captured during the war. Tyrion was before. When Robb called his banners, he declared himself a rebel to the Iron Throne. The Whispering Wood was clearly during the war.

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Doesn't that just strengthen my point? Now his actions are against an attainted traitor and rebel and national enemy.

My point is that the war was already going on when Jaime captured. It was in battle..

Otherwise I do not disagree. Cat was an idiot for taking Tyrion. And even dumber for taking him away from KL. Tywin was right to be ready for war, but he should have gone to Robert. He was King--a horrible one, I know but a king nonetheless--and was the one to resolve conflicts between major Houses, just like high lords handle squabbles of minor lords. Instead, they both decided it was war. Cat took Tyrion, Jaime attacked Ned, Gregor ravaged the Riverlands, the Lannisters took Ned prisoner, Joff killed Ned and ended all hopes of peace, Robb called his banners. You could call any of these the start of the war, but really it was because of the lords deciding to go to war and not going to Robert when this conflict began and Robert for being a shitty king.

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I agree, that it would have been better, to go to court and bring the case before Robert, but I can somewhat understand, why Tywin wouldn't do that: Most likely, it wouldn'T have been Robert, he would be adressing, but the hand, who is the husband of the lady, who abducted his son. And the best friend of the king - Tywin could very well have ended in a black cell, before he could say 'lion'. But the lack to be willing to sit down and talk about problems is a general problem in Westeros, it seems.

Rockroi: very nice arguments about Tywin :) - and the Boltons.

As for Charles Dance: He is one of my favorite actors for years now (since that wonderful 'Phantom of the Opera' movie ) and he is the perfect Tywin. And I'm very pleased, that he is mentioned in the credits at the beginning now, makes me hope for a lot of more scenes.

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I agree, that it would have been better, to go to court and bring the case before Robert, but I can somewhat understand, why Tywin wouldn't do that: Most likely, it wouldn'T have been Robert, he would be adressing, but the hand, who is the husband of the lady, who abducted his son. And the best friend of the king - Tywin could very well have ended in a black cell, before he could say 'lion'. But the lack to be willing to sit down and talk about problems is a general problem in Westeros, it seems.

Rockroi: very nice arguments about Tywin :) - and the Boltons.

As for Charles Dance: He is one of my favorite actors for years now (since that wonderful 'Phantom of the Opera' movie ) and he is the perfect Tywin. And I'm very pleased, that he is mentioned in the credits at the beginning now, makes me hope for a lot of more scenes.

I doubt that. Robert would have stepped in between two of the most politically powerful houses. Probably not efficiently, but he would have stepped in if they were both right there in KL. I think he would have made Ned return Tyrion since there was no true evidence and Robert just wanted every problem dissolved on arrival. Probably, Ned would have to return Tyrion, and Tywin would go back to the West. (This is all before the Jaime-Ned incident and Gregor in the Riverlands).

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I doubt that. Robert would have stepped in between two of the most politically powerful houses. Probably not efficiently, but he would have stepped in if they were both right there in KL. I think he would have made Ned return Tyrion since there was no true evidence and Robert just wanted every problem dissolved on arrival. Probably, Ned would have to return Tyrion, and Tywin would go back to the West. (This is all before the Jaime-Ned incident and Gregor in the Riverlands).

Robert didn't even step in between Joff and Arya.

I think Tywin acted the way he did because (well, first because he's a brutal person) he knew that Robert would not act. Hence, that why Tywin did not go to KL to demand Tyrion be freed- because Robert would not have acted. The corrollary to that is that while Robert would not act, Eddard Stark might. Thats what makes all of that troublesome. I think Tywin took what he thought to be the most effective action and not to goad the Riverlands into war but to put pressure on Cat to return Tyrion. Going to KL? Meh....

Had Tywin gone to KL he has a "best-case scenario" and that is Cat returns Tyrion to KL.... for trial (Cat is not just going to release Tyrion). Robert would not say no to Ned AND Cat (and half the realm). At that point Tywin has to endure a trial and that may not go as well as you think- what if, as far as Tywin knows, Tyrion DID try to kill Bran to protect Jaime? That is NOT AT ALL beyond the realm of possibilities. And this is Tywin's best case scenario.

Worst case scenario- Tywin goes down to KL and his tossed into a prison cell as a co-conspiritor (remember- Tywin has NO IDEA what the fuck is going on in KL sicne Ned took over as Hand); is that any more far-fetched than the Hand's wife kidnapping a son of the Rock? So, basically his authority is done.

But there is an intermediate scenario: what of Tywin is soimply ignored and nobody does anything? This, by the way seems the most likley response. Tywin would demand Tyrion's release; Ned would send a raven to the Eerie and, predictablky get no response. He would send another .... and another. Eventually he would send an envoy to the Eerie. Maybe at this point Tyrion is dead; who knows? It drags on and on. At this point Tywin cannot just sit in KL, but he also cannot leave looking beaten and, in doing so remove the pressure from Robert. Would Cat ever come? And if she did, what then? The whole realm knows that Tywin Lannister has "lost his fast ball" and lets greiving women kidnap his sons....

See, Cat screwed the pooch here. Put that aside and you ahve to ask "What will it take to unravel this mess?" And Tywin had no reason to believe that going to Robert (and his buddy Ned Stark) would mitigate his problem.

Now, attacking innoccent peasants and their fledgling (and incompetent) lords is not a nice thing to do. Howevere, it was effective.

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If liking Tywin Lannister is wrong then I don't want to be right.

Rooting for Tywin Lannister is like rooting for Goliath to defeat David or for the House to win at Blackjack. Its shallow, its easy and its completely fucking awesome.

Tywin Lannister was the only thing that is holding this realm together right now

and when Tyrion gets all bitchy at the end of book 3 that theroy becomes a stark, raving reality.

Tywin is commanding, deeply effective; strong, smart (as Dan says in Deadwood about Al Swearengen, "No, Johnny, Al's really fucking smart."), calculating, cold and intollerant of incompetence. What does that sound like to you? Oh, that's right, it sounds like somebody capable of winning a war, keeping a peace and ruling a kingdom. In other words, Tywin Lannister is every enemies worst nightmare and every allies darkest wish. You hate him as an enemy and desire him as a friend. Ask all the winners what its like to treat with Tywin Lannister

In other words ask -as of the end of Book 5 -the Warden of the North Roose Bolton and the Lord of the Riverlands, Walder Frey what its like to make common cause with Tywin Lannister. Then ask the current Hand of the Seven Kingdoms Mace Tyrell and the current Lord of Ships Paxter Redwyne what its like to go over to Tywin. And when you are done doing that ask EVERY SINGLE PERSON who made common cause with Robb Stark what its like following a man that cannot keep his word. How'd that work out for them?"

That's the key here- from Robert Baratheon all the way to the series with Arya Stark, ask all of them what its like to work and live with Tywin Lannister. He's mean (boo). He's cruel (Whaa! Whaa!...) and he says bad things about his kids (cry.me.a.river.). And he's possibly the most capable leader in the books/series.

Dance is terriffic because he bring sthat reality to life in words and actions. He's Tywin made flesh. And when you see all that come together, in the immortal words of Colonel Jessup, "And (his) existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want (him) on that wall, you need (him) on that wall."

And finally: "Because you need me, (Westeroes). Your guilty conscience may force you to vote (Stark), but deep down, you secretly long for a cold-hearted (Lannister) to lower taxes, brutalize criminals and rule you like a king. "

That's why you love Tywin Lannister. Because you know he's right.

He reminds me of MacBeth in a way - a person tormented by his own demons. Tywin apparently wasn't such a hard ass - he changed when his beloved wife died giving birth to Tyrion.

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snip

You say "this will happen," but all of that is nonsense. Tywin would not be put in a black cell. No way in any of the seven hells. Tywin committed no crimes and the realm was in his pocket. Saying Robert did not step in between Arya and Joff's fight is completely different from two major Houses about to go to war. Worst case scenario in Arya-Joff: direwolf dies, Joff gets away with it. Worst case scenario in a Stark-Lannister war: the whole realm is divided and the war destroys basically all hope of surviving through a long winter. If Tywin said to Robert "I demand Tyrion be released! There is no evidence that he did anything wrong and this is injustic!" then Robert would certainly act in Tywin's favor. Robert was kept in the dark about the feud by Ned. Ned would then have to return Tyrion, or defy Robert and risk some real consequences. Maybe not from Robert but certainly from Tywin. Tywin could then return to the West and gather his army for war. Going to Robert first would not have hurt Tywin, besides delaying him a few days so he would start the war at the same time as the Starks, not before.

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I have a very low opinion of Robert, so this is biased by its very nature, but I find it difficult to believe that Robert would do anything for either side ever. Outside of one on one battle he appears, to me, to be a spineless coward completely out if his depth. Even Ned doubts that Robert will do anything after spending a while with him. Appealing to Robert would be a waste of time to both parties and I think that is clear to everyone in universe.

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I have a very low opinion of Robert, so this is biased by its very nature, but I find it difficult to believe that Robert would do anything for either side ever. Outside of one on one battle he appears, to me, to be a spineless coward completely out if his depth. Even Ned doubts that Robert will do anything after spending a while with him. Appealing to Robert would be a waste of time to both parties and I think that is clear to everyone in universe.

Regardless of what we all think Robert would actually do, Tywin should have contacted him nonetheless. I do not think it is ever a good idea to leave an accepted king out of conflicts between major houses, especially when they could lead to civil war.

To me, Robert just was lazy. He wanted to have nothing to do. So with a conflict looming, he'd want none of it. He'd force peace, even if it is false. He did not want to have to really deal with it, so he would have the families put on a show of peace. Again, a timebomb set to go off with his death. But this would work much better for Tywin's PR since he could claim his son was taken captive without cause and that Ned was the one defying the laws of the king.

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Look, being a good ruler and being a swell guy are different things.

Tywin is not a guy you would want as a father. Fair point.

Tywin is a guy you would want as your lord. Better point.

No, Tywin is a guy you would want as your lord. I certainly wouldn't, unless it was a choice between him and Roose Bolton. Remember Tysha?

Tywin is a guy you would never want as an enemy. Ultimate point.

Well, that solves it once and for all. Although the list of characters in ASoIAF with the same characteristics is quite long: I certainly would not want Tywin as my enemy, nor Gregor, nor Joffrey, nor Cersei, nor Ramsay, nor Victarion, nor Vargo Hoat, nor Walder Frey, not even that rodent Slynt... Does not mean they're not douchebags. Does not mean they deserve any respect. Just means they can be dangerous.

Ah, sorry, you wrote "ultimate point". That certainly changes everything and wins a discussion.

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No, Tywin is a guy you would want as your lord. I certainly wouldn't, unless it was a choice between him and Roose Bolton. Remember Tysha?

Oh I know you would not want Tywin and I fully understand why. You want somebody like Ned ... unless you are Fat Tom and he delivers you into the hands of your enemies. That's my point- Tywin knows what he is doing and will do it to everyone to maintain his station. And if he is my lord then his desire to remain "top dog" will bvenefit me. He is also fair and does not need to make anyone happy (free from corrupting influences). That's how I want my lord to be; I don't want him investigating issues that won't make my life better; I don't want him saying stupid things like, "I will do as honor dictates" (honor gets some dumb-asses killed). I don't want him pissing off more powerful lords and then getting killed; I don't want him getting drunk and getting goared by a boar or killed by a shadow. I don't want my lord sending troops to DEFEND every part of the Riverlands, thus guarenteeing that the Riverlands get the shit kicked out of the. I don't want my lord saying, "Of course I will marry your daughter" and then saying "By the way, I married this other woman because I love her... but we're cvool right?" And then I RCERTAINLy do not want that lord GOING TO DINER with those same people!

I want my lord to be a ruthless SOB who I can understand and sserve so that my interests align with his; I want a lord that always thinks, "How can I get more" because that menas our Kingdom is getting more; I want a lord who will fuck other people's shit up so they will not fuck my shit up. I want my lord to be ruthless by stable; hard but fair; I want him terrible in war time but decent in peace. In other words, I want Tywin/Stannis/Dany as my lord, not Edmure/Robb/Ned.

Oh, and I don't want Roose Bolton or Ramsey as my lord. Ever. On that we agree.

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Oh I know you would not want Tywin and I fully understand why. You want somebody like Ned ... unless you are Fat Tom and he delivers you into the hands of your enemies. That's my point- Tywin knows what he is doing and will do it to everyone to maintain his station. And if he is my lord then his desire to remain "top dog" will bvenefit me.

Again: how his ruthlessness, which you respect so much, did benefit Tysha, precisely? Because I'm pretty sure she'd be better off, had she been born in lands of a different lord. Any lord, save for Bolton.

And belittle Ned how much you want, at least he hasn't gotten shot in the crapper. By the hand of his own son, no less. I call it epic fail for a feudal lord and pater familias. Everyone can get killed by his enemies, but only a very special man will perish by the hand of his own son.

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He reminds me of MacBeth in a way - a person tormented by his own demons. Tywin apparently wasn't such a hard ass - he changed when his beloved wife died giving birth to Tyrion.

Theon is Macbeth, not Tywin.

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Oh, and I don't want Roose Bolton or Ramsey as my lord. Ever. On that we agree.

Don't lump Roose in with Ramsay. Ramsay is genuine nutty psychopath. Roose is socially midway between Tywin and Littlefinger, and acts accordingly (unlike Tywin he has to play second fiddle and can't throw his weight around in every situation, but unlike Littlefinger he does actually have a lordship to run, and can't afford to unleash mindless chaos). Also, considering that Roose was actually they guy who killed Robb, he's managed to keep the Boltons under the radar very nicely.

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Don't lump Roose in with Ramsay. Ramsay is genuine nutty psychopath. Roose is socially midway between Tywin and Littlefinger, and acts accordingly (unlike Tywin he has to play second fiddle and can't throw his weight around in every situation, but unlike Littlefinger he does actually have a lordship to run, and can't afford to unleash mindless chaos). Also, considering that Roose was actually they guy who killed Robb, he's managed to keep the Boltons under the radar very nicely.

Of course they're different characters. Yet, from the smallfolk's POV, it really sucks to catch the attention of either of them. Ramsay has his "hunts" and other entertainment, and Roose raped a woman and had her husband's tongue cut off to prevent him from "telling stories to Lord Eddard".

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Oh I know you would not want Tywin and I fully understand why. You want somebody like Ned ... unless you are Fat Tom and he delivers you into the hands of your enemies. That's my point- Tywin knows what he is doing and will do it to everyone to maintain his station. And if he is my lord then his desire to remain "top dog" will bvenefit me. He is also fair and does not need to make anyone happy (free from corrupting influences). That's how I want my lord to be; I don't want him investigating issues that won't make my life better; I don't want him saying stupid things like, "I will do as honor dictates" (honor gets some dumb-asses killed). I don't want him pissing off more powerful lords and then getting killed; I don't want him getting drunk and getting goared by a boar or killed by a shadow. I don't want my lord sending troops to DEFEND every part of the Riverlands, thus guarenteeing that the Riverlands get the shit kicked out of the. I don't want my lord saying, "Of course I will marry your daughter" and then saying "By the way, I married this other woman because I love her... but we're cvool right?" And then I RCERTAINLy do not want that lord GOING TO DINER with those same people!

I want my lord to be a ruthless SOB who I can understand and sserve so that my interests align with his; I want a lord that always thinks, "How can I get more" because that menas our Kingdom is getting more; I want a lord who will fuck other people's shit up so they will not fuck my shit up. I want my lord to be ruthless by stable; hard but fair; I want him terrible in war time but decent in peace. In other words, I want Tywin/Stannis/Dany as my lord, not Edmure/Robb/Ned.

Oh, and I don't want Roose Bolton or Ramsey as my lord. Ever. On that we agree.

Tywin wasn't fair at all. Does the way he treated Tysha strike as "fair"? What about Masha Heddle who was hanged because Tyrion was captured in her inn even though she couldn't do anything against dozens of armed men? What exactly did he do to prove himself as fair?

His desire to make his House more powerful and his pride made him start a war he had very little hope of winning, in fact he only won thanks to extreme luck - shadowbaby, Balon's idiocy, Robb's stupid marriage, eEven so, many thousands of his subjects, just so Tywin can satisfy his pride and make his House stronger. How does that benefit those who live there? Not to mention that even more of them will starve because the men were missing for a long time and couldn't collect some harvests, and Robb's forced foraged and burn a lot of their supplies. But hey, at least they won the war, right, that is a big consolation when you are dying of hunger because your Lord was an arrogant and selfish SOB.

I don't want him getting drunk and getting goared by a boar or killed by a shadow.

The way Tywin died was equally stupid as Robert's, if not more. At least Robert had his wine made much stronger than usual which tricked him. Tywin provoked a man with a crossbow who he knew hated him and who had just told him he'd kill him if he provoked him this way. Tywin easily beats everyone in this series when it comes to causing his death due to his own stupidity, only Quentyn is in the same league.

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Tywin wasn't fair at all. Does the way he treated Tysha strike as "fair"?

Not really, but overall, Tywin is fair with the people who are loyal to him. And how do I avoid Tasha's fate? Don't fuck Tyrion. GOT IT! I think I can manage that. I think most lords can manage that.

What about Masha Heddle who was hanged because Tyrion was captured in her inn even though she couldn't do anything against dozens of armed men? What exactly did he do to prove himself as fair?

Sorry, that's that day and age. Tyrion was kidnapped under that woman's roof. Did she raise a ruckus or demand proof of such a crime under her roof? Did she say something like, "This man is a guest under my roof and therefore he is protected by my hospitality (... hmmm.. that ... that sounds strangely familiar. But hey- guest rights only matter when they protect the cool characters .... )?" No. She said "Everyone get out and just don't kill him here" (paraphrase). She could have alerted the authorities or call upon this madness to stop, but instead she just let it happen. Under her roof. Sorry, you better have a better excuse than "I'm just a poor innkeep... "

His desire to make his House more powerful and his pride made him start a war he had very little hope of winning,

I agree with this because Robb Stark should have realized from the outset that he had no hope of winning that war... wait, I mean... Stannis should have realized that he had no hope of defeating Renly and ... wait... I mean Robert Baratheon should have realized he had no hope of defeating a 300 year dynasty...

Wait, what were you talking about again? Who didn't have any chance of winning that war again? Tywin? You mena the guy who ended up winning the war had no hope of winning the war? That's your argument? Good luck with that.

in fact he only won thanks to extreme luck - shadowbaby, Balon's idiocy, Robb's stupid marriage,

He won for many reasons, but luck had nothing to do with it. Tywin had goals in front of him and made decisions based upon the information he had; he made the most of every opportunity; he committed no grave errors; he unerstood his enemy and pounced when that enemy made a mistake.

Even so, many thousands of his subjects, just so Tywin can satisfy his pride and make his House stronger. How does that benefit those who live there?

This is my entire argument: if Tywin is better off then as a subject of his I am better off. If the Lannisters are more powerful, better off etc then I partially reap those benefits. Some lords who shall remain Ned Stark do outrageously dumb things like lead his men directly to the queen - the same queen Ned Stark just told his plan to (resulting in my death); some lords say that they will marry THIS daughter and then marry a completely different person (resulting in my death); some lords make elaborate plans that take 15 years and result in their son getting roasted by a dragon; some lords are fucking crazy and get killed by their own Kingsguard.

Yeah, I don't like those guys. They get guys like Fat Tom and Junior Manderly and Littlejon and Jory and Prince Lewyn and Rhaegar killed because they act like idiots when it matters most.

Look, take Tywin's blind spot- his children. If I am a lord of Tywin Lannister the fact that he is killed by Tyrion on a privy is not a huge deal to me. Yeah it sucks that such a great man was killed in a useless, empty gesture by his disenfranchised son in a bout of semi-psychotic rage simmering for like 20+ years... but hey- at least I'm still alive! Tywin's actions lead to his death like 20+ years AFTER THE FACT! That's not something that's likely to kill anyone (I know, I know he shat when he died, its hilariously ironic... not really but whatever); but the others? They all died in VERY PREDICTABLE FASHION! And worse- their deaths were in a manner that ultimately lead to the deaths of many of their men - who all died in "service" of their lord. Nobody died in service of Tywin Lannister because of Tyrion.

Not to mention that even more of them will starve because the men were missing for a long time and couldn't collect some harvests, and Robb's forced foraged and burn a lot of their supplies.

So, wait... by some people's logic doesn't that make RObb a war criminal? I thought that was the complaint againt Tywin? But now its a good thing for Robb? Now my head just hurts because I cannot keep these stories straight. And again- just like Tywin said in the 205 episode "Its war- its not pleasant for anyone!" How can Robb's actions be laid on Tywin's feet? And if Tywin's men are starving because of the war, etc- SO ARE ROBB'S! By that (il)logic, Robb is just as at fault.

But hey, at least they won the war, right, that is a big consolation when you are dying of hunger because your Lord was an arrogant and selfish SOB.

I agree. By that logic the following people are "arrogant and selfish SOBs"

Robb Stark

Tywin Lannister

Ned Stark

Robert Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon

Renly Baratheon

Dany Targaryeh

Aerys Targaryen

Arya Stark (she killed that Stable boy... bad Arya! BAD!)

See my point? If its bad for one, its bad for all.

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Watching that scene again, I can't get over how good Dance is as Tywin. Such a sheer badass... Close second to Nikolaj for me.

I feel they're making most of the Lannisters a little more likeable (Jaime aside, though that changes on its own); Cersei is much less of a bitch, Tyrion's own shortcomings aren't really prevalent yet, and Tywin's big entry into S2 is a scene that good -- saving two major characters from torture and walking all over his pet monsters.

Joff, on the other hand...

Joff is suppose to be unmitigatingly bad. A bit like Ramsay. His tragedy is that he's been spoilt ever since he was a young kid, spoon fed plenty of BS by his mother, and now he's become king and exaults in the almighty power he has. He wants to piss people off because he can. Which sort of heralds the spotlight on his final destiny.

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