This drives me crazy about Lord Snow

[Mulled Wino]

If his father always ate with his men and socialized with them at every meal, why does Jon shun them so he has no idea they are turning on him? Why??????????????

I'm sure this has been talked to death, but I'm new and couldn't find the convo.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

If his father always ate with his men and socialized with them at every meal, why does Jon shun them so he has no idea they are turning on him? Why??????????????

I'm sure this has been talked to death, but I'm new and couldn't find the convo.

because his father didn't have responsibility he has on his shoulders

Jon Snow was (mostly) well liked and had many friends, Lord Snow only had his wolf (but as he himself stated they were more than friends, Ghost was part of him) and Lord Commander has no friends

And it was not the lack of friends that killed (if he is dead) Jon, it were his decisions (yup, they were 99% good but still they killed him)

[Mulled Wino]

because his father didn't have responsibility he has on his shoulders

Jon Snow was (mostly) well liked and had many friends, Lord Snow only had his wolf (but as he himself stated they were more than friends, Ghost was part of him) and Lord Commander has no friends

And it was not the lack of friends that killed (if he is dead) Jon, it were his decisions (yup, they were 99% good but still they killed him)

Eddard was mostly well liked and had many friends by all accounts as well. And his father had a lot of responsibility as well. I will defeinitely grant you that Snow had a much tougher nut to crack in getting the watch to accept the wildlings and subjects/allies, but that's all the more reason to talk with your people, to get their feelings on the subject and assuage their concerns, or at least hear what his enemies are plotting.

Seems to me, reading his POV's that this was a total surprise to Snow and it shouldn't have been. Not if he had word of the talk amongst the NW. He was so oblivious that he wasn't even keeping ghost close because of a stupid pig.

eddard taught his kids how to rule, and jon was ruling, irregardless (I can only type that because I live in Miami and we say that) of the circumstances.

[zeldairish]

I believe it's somewhere towards the beginning of ADwD, but Jon recalls Ned telling him something along the lines of "you can love your men, but not befriend them." This is particularly difficult for Jon given that he was good friends with some of his men before becoming Lord Commander.

[Mulled Wino]

I believe it's somewhere towards the beginning of ADwD, but Jon recalls Ned telling him something along the lines of "you can love your men, but not befriend them." This is particularly difficult for Jon given that he was good friends with some of his men before becoming Lord Commander.

I do remember that, but its a bit inconsistent with what Robb describes in depth that Eddard always ate with his men and told him to always take an intersest in them in GoT or CoK though.

Friends is a lot different than actually associating and getting a line on how your subjects are doing. I'm not friends with my employees, but I damn sure talk to them and eat with them. It seems to me that even Jon's friends were thinking he was acting like he was better than everyone.

His old friends were't willing to put their lives on the line, AND he took ghost for granted. Very very poor judgement for Jon, and I always got the impression he was better than that

[zeldairish]

I do remember that, but its a bit inconsistent with what Robb describes in depth that Eddard always ate with his men and told him to always take an intersest in them in GoT or CoK though.

Friends is a lot different than actually associating and getting a line on how your subjects are doing. I'm not friends with my employees, but I damn sure talk to them and eat with them. It seems to me that even Jon's friends were thinking he was acting like he was better than everyone.

His old friends were't willing to put their lives on the line, AND he took ghost for granted. Very very poor judgement for Jon, and I always got the impression he was better than that

I understand your point and don't necessarily disagree. I think it was difficult for Jon because he was so young, a "green boy" if you will. He really had to work hard to get his men to respect him as we saw with his treatment of Janos Slynt and Thorne. I think he wanted to avoid at all costs sacrificing his duty as Lord Commander. What's also interesting is the comparison GRRM of Jon to Stannis in book 5. I believe Mel even says something along the lines of "you're more alike than you know." Stannis is not well liked but his sense of honor and duty is second to none. Your point about Ghost is warranted as well. Jon should have been smart enough to realize that Ghost would not act so sporadicly without good reason. I have a hard time badmouthing Jon sometimes because I like his character so much, but I think you do bring up a good points.

[Im no Ser]

I do remember that, but its a bit inconsistent with what Robb describes in depth that Eddard always ate with his men and told him to always take an intersest in them in GoT or CoK though.

I don't have the text in front of me, but I don't think Eddard always ate with his men. He would always have ONE of his men sit at his table with his family. Jon only has subordinates around him, and many used to be friends.

That said, it wasn't the best personel management, particularly sending away virtually every NW ally he had to other posts.

[Lummel]

Agree with what has been said so far. Jon hasn't been able to draw on his memory of how The Ned did things (except of course to tell Stannis how to behave with the Hill Clans) he is having trouble with the transition from Jon Snow the Steward to being the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He's on a parallel track to Dany in ADWD having to learn how to be the leader while leading, making mistakes, or sometimes trying to do the right thing but in the wrong way.

ETA it wouldn't have been impossible to do what The Ned did and eat with his officers at Castle Black but have one of the ordinary Brothers join them for the meal. Not that this would have made all the difference...

[dreamcatcher]

He's got no friends whatsoever and is haunted by the fact that he has to grow up, and also he's got waaaay more than Ned ever had on his shoulders. He can't be friends with people whom he must rule to survive.

[Knight of the Teabags]

If his father always ate with his men and socialized with them at every meal, why does Jon shun them so he has no idea they are turning on him? Why??????????????

I'm sure this has been talked to death, but I'm new and couldn't find the convo.

Because essentially you're trying to compare a leader with 16 years of experience of what works personally for him and because of that was confident in his position with a new leader who's chiefly trying to concentrate on not making mistakes and is still not confident in his new position. Jon's situation in becoming Lord Commander was not at the end of the day unlike anybody starting in a new position they haven't held before, no amount of book knowledge or examples of mentors is going to teach you how to do the job right without you having personally held it for sometime. So Jon understandably like most people who are serious about doing their new job well puts the job first, at the expense of his personal life.

Inevitably he makes mistakes - which in the situation he was in cost him dear. That said had Jon had the time to have become comfortable in doing the duties of the Lord Commander and found a style of leadership which suited him (and every leader has to ultimately find their OWN best way to lead) he may well in time felt more at ease letting the 'Lord's face' slip from time to time. As for Eddard I seriously doubt you would have seen much of the inviting his men to his table in his first year as a Lord in his own right, this is clearly a personal touch Lord Eddard had learnt from experience worked personally for himself. It may well work for Jon or it may not but Jon has to learn what works for him.

[bloodymime]

Ned had been the lord for years, there was no doubt what he was and where his men stood in relation. Jon has just become LC and he has to draw a clear line between what he is now and what he was. I remember a post on this from someone with military training talking about how when officers are promoted they are often transferred so they don't have to break down that camaraderie they've had with the other men up until then. Jon doesn't have that luxury other then sending a few of the ones he was closest to to the other castles.

[Errant Bard]

He's got friends, he just rejects them to be emo inside. Because he thinks internal drama is cool or something.

Remember the time he decides to eat in the main hall with his friends? He could have sat there, but no, at the last time he's like "solitude is my lot, until the end of my days" "I'm not like them", and then he makes some half assed excuse and whine some more, internally.

[bloodymime]

He's got friends, he just rejects them to be emo inside. Because he thinks internal drama is cool or something.

Remember the time he decides to eat in the main hall with his friends? He could have sat there, but no, at the last time he's like "solitude is my lot, until the end of my days" "I'm not like them", and then he makes some half assed excuse and whine some more, internally.

Are you talking about after he is made LC and goes in thinking he could have dinner with his old friends but ends up having to order them to not be mocking the king's religion? The whole scene is a clear realization of why he can't just sit down at the table and be one of the boys.

In fact yeah, it can't be spelled out any more plainer.

"A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die."

[Capon Breath]

If his father always ate with his men and socialized with them at every meal, why does Jon shun them so he has no idea they are turning on him? Why??????????????

I'm sure this has been talked to death, but I'm new and couldn't find the convo.

I think it because he's what, about 19? Fulfilling a hugely important role that was unnepectedly thurst on him. Hes just a bit naive and gets some (lots) of stuff wrong. It strikes me as fairly classic overcompensation, he's not mature or experienced or confident enough to be Lord Commander and a human being so he over compensates on being what he thinks a Strong Lord Commander should act like,

[jarl the climber]

Ned was a Lord of a kingdom in peace or war, Jons command is essentialy a military one, so we can't compare the two.

[Chirios]

If his father always ate with his men and socialized with them at every meal, why does Jon shun them so he has no idea they are turning on him? Why??????????????

I'm sure this has been talked to death, but I'm new and couldn't find the convo.

George wanted Jon to die, therefore he had to invent some excuse that flatly contradicted other parts of his continuity in order to create some semblance of an excuse for why Jon had to die. Ergo, bullshit plot hole. This is the same reason why Dany took stupid pills for the entire story, why Tyrion just "happened" to run into Jorah, and why the entire Quentyn storyline exists.

[kephv]

George wanted Jon to die, therefore he had to invent some excuse that flatly contradicted other parts of his continuity

Like what? There's nothing contradictory about Jon's decision to send his friends away. Stupid move, but he's doing what he thought The Ned might've done, so in fact, that is very in line was how he's always acted.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Also, a common misconception is that Ned trained Jon and Rob equally, when jon finds out he's going to be Mormonts steward and part of his councils Jon recalls that Ned had made Rob part of some of his councils, as in Jon wasn't taught as much about leading men as Rob......I don't know if it explains the eating with them, but it does explain some of his actions

[Daario]

Ned was born into the ruling family, the men he may have befriended always knew he would be their commander, be it as Lord or Second son knight. There would have been deference towards him regardless.

Jon Snow is a bastard raised up from the ranks, and a fresh NW member to boot.

High placed NW knights who spat on him earlier now have to defer to him, Ned wouldn't have had to suffer that at all.

Ned could act like a bro because deep down his men knew he was the lord.

[Ragnorak]

If his father always ate with his men and socialized with them at every meal, why does Jon shun them so he has no idea they are turning on him? Why??????????????

I'm sure this has been talked to death, but I'm new and couldn't find the convo.

Ned grew up in Winterfel, and he had years of routine peaceful matters to establish a rapport with his entire chain of command. Ned was also always highborn even if not the heir. Jon had been an equal with the NW and becomes commander amidst a crisis with no time to adjust to the role himself or time for his subordinates to feel him out. There is always an adjustment period with a new leader, more so when the leader is elevated from among equals. He can't continue to sit and have dinner with his friends without creating a sense of favortism among others and fostering insubordination in his friends. Jon knew plenty of people were pissed. But being pissed and wanting to murder you commander are two different things. Even wanting to kill your commander and actually trying to kill your commander are a far cry apart.