This drives me crazy about Lord Snow

[Chirios]

Jon couldn't take Winterfell from Stannis or marry the prettiest lass in the North. He'd taken vows. A weaker man or immoral man would have jumped at the chance of Winterfell and Val.

Yes, I know you can argue that Jon broke his vows in his last chapter but I don't want to discuss that. That chapter is not sensible and I think it might be a dream.

Summarises the entire book for me imo.

At one point Jon, literally, makes a list of the people he thinks are plotting against him, and then promptly ignores it! This isn't brought about by any character trait, it's not caused by other events overwhelming him, it's the author having him bury his head in the sand solely so that he can have his plot twist.

The reason the first book worked was because Ned's death felt organic. It was well thought out, it was based on a clear character trait that had been previously established. Yes, it made Ned look foolish but Ned looked foolish for very good reasons.

Jon's death (as well as Dany's plotline; Tyrion suddenly deciding to become a supervillain; and the prince with the blue hair), do not feel organic; because it was forced by the author. I don't know if Grrm had epic writers block or what, but it was clear what he was doing from the very beginning and it fell flat and lifeless as a result.

The reason why Jon didn't eat with his friends was because George introduced a completely new character element, out of nowhere, in order to justify Jon inexplicably having very few allies. It's that simple. Even though we already knew that Ned did eat with people, that he did talk with the men under his command, George needed them out of the way, so: "Ned said it, somewhere, seriously!"

Every single one of Jon's plans fail, simply to make him look incompetent. There's no reason why they should fail, there's no sensible reason, but lo and behold, all of them crash and burn into nothingness. He is aware that a LC has been assassinated, yet chooses to take no precaution against assassination. He is aware that people are plotting against him, yet seems to think that if he separates two of the plotters that one of the plotters won't simply find someone else on the list that he has already made to plot with! The people that killed Jon were not Tywin level geniuses and it doesn't take a Tywin level genius to defend against them. But George wanted the plot twist so Jon ate the stupid pills. It isn't a case of what the character did, because the plot twist didn't flow organically from what we know about the character, it's a case of what the writer did so George could try and create his sequel hook.

[Fantôme]

Yes, I know you can argue that Jon broke his vows in his last chapter but I don't want to discuss that. That chapter is not sensible and I think it might be a dream.

I agree that this chapter was just too weird. Which is the only reason I actually considered the glamouring hypothesis even though it doesn't seem to make much sense given it was Jon's pov... But still, none of the actions or decisions seemed "normal" to me.

[dreamcatcher]

If Jon had any sense he would've accepted Winterfell as Stannis intended. With Stannis on the Iron Throne and Jon as Warden of the North, the Watch & Wall would receive the attention that the situation brewing North of the wall warrants.

Jon's honor vs. Survival of the Watch, and perhaps even the realm.

Jon didn't refuse Winterfell just because of his honour (we've already seen him break that), but because he didn't want the Red God in Winterfell. (If I understood that passage in ASoS right. First he thinks about what it would be like to be the lord and almost decides for it, but then Ghost comes and reminds Jon that he's of the Old Gods, the North. He also thinks of Catelyn and how she said he's not a Stark.

[dreamcatcher]

*I also got a double post.*

[Ser Adam]

Sorry, iPad posting glitch, no delete option I can find, just edit.

[Ser Adam]

Another different/random thought, is the way Jon explains his plan. Ramsay clearly says he will march on Castle Black. This is a serious threat I can't see people not freaking out about. Jon should have said something along the lines of seeking Ramsay out to prevent an attack on Castle Black, not in the manner or revenge and oath breaking fury he spews out.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I agree that this chapter was just too weird. Which is the only reason I actually considered the glamouring hypothesis even though it doesn't seem to make much sense given it was Jon's pov... But still, none of the actions or decisions seemed "normal" to me.

Agree Fantome. Thousands of wildlings had just come through the Wall and I don't think Jon would have trusted Bowen to feed them and treat them humanely. He wouldn't have left for HardHome or Winterfell, I think.

By the way, I'm growing an heirloom tomato with your name in it:) It's called Fantome Du Laos and is a gorgeous ivory tomato from Laos. The legend is when ghosts are near, this tomato glows in the dark to alert you:)

[Fantôme]

Agree Fantome. Thousands of wildlings had just come through the Wall and I don't think Jon would have trusted Bowen to feed them and treat them humanely. He wouldn't have left for HardHome or Winterfell, I think.

By the way, I'm growing an heirloom tomato with your name in it:) It's called Fantome Du Laos and is a gorgeous ivory tomato from Laos. The legend is when ghosts are near, this tomato glows in the dark to alert you:)

Agreed!

:P That's the most amazing tomato I've ever heard of.I like the name ^^.

[Mulled Wino]

:rolleyes: Maybe you should read Twilight and visit the Twilight forums, that should be your cuppa tea. Maybe no one will "talk shit" about Edward there.

yea, that emoticon fights right in with your tough guy routine.....

oh, so does being nowhere near funny.

[Mulled Wino]

Summarises the entire book for me imo.

At one point Jon, literally, makes a list of the people he thinks are plotting against him, and then promptly ignores it! This isn't brought about by any character trait, it's not caused by other events overwhelming him, it's the author having him bury his head in the sand solely so that he can have his plot twist.

The reason the first book worked was because Ned's death felt organic. It was well thought out, it was based on a clear character trait that had been previously established. Yes, it made Ned look foolish but Ned looked foolish for very good reasons.

Jon's death (as well as Dany's plotline; Tyrion suddenly deciding to become a supervillain; and the prince with the blue hair), do not feel organic; because it was forced by the author. I don't know if Grrm had epic writers block or what, but it was clear what he was doing from the very beginning and it fell flat and lifeless as a result.

The reason why Jon didn't eat with his friends was because George introduced a completely new character element, out of nowhere, in order to justify Jon inexplicably having very few allies. It's that simple. Even though we already knew that Ned did eat with people, that he did talk with the men under his command, George needed them out of the way, so: "Ned said it, somewhere, seriously!"

Every single one of Jon's plans fail, simply to make him look incompetent. There's no reason why they should fail, there's no sensible reason, but lo and behold, all of them crash and burn into nothingness. He is aware that a LC has been assassinated, yet chooses to take no precaution against assassination. He is aware that people are plotting against him, yet seems to think that if he separates two of the plotters that one of the plotters won't simply find someone else on the list that he has already made to plot with! The people that killed Jon were not Tywin level geniuses and it doesn't take a Tywin level genius to defend against them. But George wanted the plot twist so Jon ate the stupid pills. It isn't a case of what the character did, because the plot twist didn't flow organically from what we know about the character, it's a case of what the writer did so George could try and create his sequel hook.

bra fuckng vo!

best post ever.

[Raja]

I think you're being a little harsh calling Jon's death not organic . Organic to me at least is gut wrenching and a shock , which is exactly how I felt at the end of that chapter. Here's the thing though , we have no clue what's happened to Jon as of yet. We've got no idea how his story line ends which is why I think it's a little premature to judge and say stuff like George had a "writer's block" . We saw the end of Ned's story , there was no question of it proceeding from there. Whereas Jon we haven't seen it through yet , we haven't seen it play out. Given than Martin knew the fate's of all these characters before he started the book, I would think he has a good idea of where all this is going and if it's going to pay off or not.

[Mulled Wino]

I think you're being a little harsh calling Jon's death not organic . Organic to me at least is gut wrenching and a shock , which is exactly how I felt at the end of that chapter. Here's the thing though , we have no clue what's happened to Jon as of yet. We've got no idea how his story line ends which is why I think it's a little premature to judge and say stuff like George had a "writer's block" . We saw the end of Ned's story , there was no question of it proceeding from there. Whereas Jon we haven't seen it through yet , we haven't seen it play out. Given than Martin knew the fate's of all these characters before he started the book, I would think he has a good idea of where all this is going and if it's going to pay off or not.

Personally, Jon is one of my favorite characters and that's why some of his actions as lord commander make me crazy. Im eagerly anticipating the remainder of his story.

[Budj]

I kind of wondered if it was a dream too...it kind of seems to rush from sequence to sequence in a dream-like manner. There are also several explanations for prophetic dreams in the story - Targs have been known to have prophetic dreams...and the old gods seem to be able to insert dream sequences to affect a person's choices. "all he felt was the cold" could be him waking up since you always wake up before you die in a dream and it's cold at the wall ;)

Jon may not be willing to listen to Mel's claims, but maybe he would listen to the old gods.

[Buried Treasure]

True, Ned often ate in the common hall, but he kept table with his family not the common men. The rotating guests that Ned had sit by him at dinner included his steward and his master of horse – in other words his officers. That is very similar to Jon eating with his own officers (mentioned specifically on the morning he had a breakfast with them before allowing the wildlings through the Wall). Jon eats most of his meals at his desk whilst working, but even if he went to the common hall for meals he keeps his (very diminished) officer corps so busy that there are unlikely to often be enough of them off duty to eat at the same time.

Ned’s advice about taking an interest in his men – Jon takes. He visits the men at their guard posts, watches them at training, checks they are well provisioned (the instance with the guards with cotton gloves – and they are not even his own men but Stannis’). He sends for warm drinks when his guards are on duty outside, shares jests with the commen men and allows them to ask questions – although he remains in control of the conversation and will only give out the information he chooses to.

From my own experience I understand sending his closest friends (Grenn, Pyp et al) away to have absolutely been the correct decision. I received some officership training from the military and I was taught that informality (even a level of friendship) is acceptable between a leader and those under command but there must be a barrier. The simplest example is that is is okay for a young officer to go out drinking with his/her troop, but not to get rolling-on-the-floor drunk with them. The other boys were Jon’s first friends in the NW, they recited the oaths the night he tried to desert – the barrier does not exist between them and Jon. Sending them to other postings is no different to a promoted from-the-ranks officer being sent to join a different unit upon commisioning in the modern military. Other characters, like Dolorous Edd, Jon was friendly with both before and after his promotion – but he was never so close to and so a barrier exists. Robbs bodyguard’s would have filled a similar position to Edd – the distance Robb needed to keep to maintain his authority meant that they were friendly, not friends (Robb only ever shares his doubts with Cat & the Blackfish, he has to stay strong for his men).

[Kenneth Yung]

There's nothing unrealistic about GRRM's characterization of Jon.

Seeing as how all you complainers have

-never been born a bastard

-never been raised in the shadow of their true born brothers their whole lives

-never lost all three brothers

-Known who your mother is and been loved by her

-never been an outcast your whole life

-never be capable of entering the mind of a wolf

-never killed a person

-never seen a massive wall of ice, a wooly mammoth, a giant, a glowing sword, an ice zombie, an other

-Never had sex with a wildling

-Never grown up in the medieval era

-Never been elected as Lord Commander of the nights watch when you are 16

-Never been locked in an ice cage and starved for 10 days

-Never been asked to be a double agent or masquarade as a wildling

-Never spent many months of your lives with Ned Stark, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Mance Rayder, Lord Mormant

-etc etc etc.

I dont think anyone can presume to talk about whether Jon's behavior, or any supposed change of behavior is realistic or not.

Ive been told traumatic events change people. Seems like Jons been through alot of those events. Seems like Jon has alot on his mind. Seems natural that he would make mistakes. Seems natural that the way he'd behave in book 5 would be different from how he'd behave in book 1,2,3,4.

The same applies to all these characters.

I'm not defending the literary decisions GRRM makes. Some of them are questionable to me as well. But keep this in mind when you are commenting on how realistic or organic these characters are.

Their pretty damn real and organic. But that doesnt mean they make for good reading.

[Mulled Wino]

True, Ned often ate in the common hall, but he kept table with his family not the common men. The rotating guests that Ned had sit by him at dinner included his steward and his master of horse – in other words his officers. That is very similar to Jon eating with his own officers (mentioned specifically on the morning he had a breakfast with them before allowing the wildlings through the Wall). Jon eats most of his meals at his desk whilst working, but even if he went to the common hall for meals he keeps his (very diminished) officer corps so busy that there are unlikely to often be enough of them off duty to eat at the same time.

Ned’s advice about taking an interest in his men – Jon takes. He visits the men at their guard posts, watches them at training, checks they are well provisioned (the instance with the guards with cotton gloves – and they are not even his own men but Stannis’). He sends for warm drinks when his guards are on duty outside, shares jests with the commen men and allows them to ask questions – although he remains in control of the conversation and will only give out the information he chooses to.

From my own experience I understand sending his closest friends (Grenn, Pyp et al) away to have absolutely been the correct decision. I received some officership training from the military and I was taught that informality (even a level of friendship) is acceptable between a leader and those under command but there must be a barrier. The simplest example is that is is okay for a young officer to go out drinking with his/her troop, but not to get rolling-on-the-floor drunk with them. The other boys were Jon’s first friends in the NW, they recited the oaths the night he tried to desert – the barrier does not exist between them and Jon. Sending them to other postings is no different to a promoted from-the-ranks officer being sent to join a different unit upon commisioning in the modern military. Other characters, like Dolorous Edd, Jon was friendly with both before and after his promotion – but he was never so close to and so a barrier exists. Robbs bodyguard’s would have filled a similar position to Edd – the distance Robb needed to keep to maintain his authority meant that they were friendly, not friends (Robb only ever shares his doubts with Cat & the Blackfish, he has to stay strong for his men).

This would be a great answer if this were a question on a test, but John was in great peril at the time. Melisandre was warning him about daggers in the dark, he knows he has many enemies and that his brothers were watching his every move. Not a time to promote your closest allies to positions far away, nor was it a time to drop the best bodyguard ever in the history of bodyguards.

[Mulled Wino]

There's nothing unrealistic about GRRM's characterization of Jon.

Seeing as how all you complainers have

-never been born a bastard

-never been raised in the shadow of their true born brothers their whole lives

-never lost all three brothers

-Known who your mother is and been loved by her

-never been an outcast your whole life

-never be capable of entering the mind of a wolf

-never killed a person

-never seen a massive wall of ice, a wooly mammoth, a giant, a glowing sword, an ice zombie, an other

-Never had sex with a wildling

-Never grown up in the medieval era

-Never been elected as Lord Commander of the nights watch when you are 16

-Never been locked in an ice cage and starved for 10 days

-Never been asked to be a double agent or masquarade as a wildling

-Never spent many months of your lives with Ned Stark, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Mance Rayder, Lord Mormant

-etc etc etc.

I dont think anyone can presume to talk about whether Jon's behavior, or any supposed change of behavior is realistic or not.

Ive been told traumatic events change people. Seems like Jons been through alot of those events. Seems like Jon has alot on his mind. Seems natural that he would make mistakes. Seems natural that the way he'd behave in book 5 would be different from how he'd behave in book 1,2,3,4.

The same applies to all these characters.

I'm not defending the literary decisions GRRM makes. Some of them are questionable to me as well. But keep this in mind when you are commenting on how realistic or organic these characters are.

Their pretty damn real and organic. But that doesnt mean they make for good reading.

alright, time to shut down the site.......................

[Christine K]

I don't think it was out of character, it was just very sudden and it seemed odd that he made the decision so quickly. I don't really think he's dead though. Clearly none of the characters are safe and can die at any time, but if Jon's going to die I think it would happen after more has been revealed about him, but you never know I guess. What I don't understand: Why did Jon so adamantly ignored Melisandre's warnings when he knew so many of the NW didn't agree with what he was doing?

[Fantôme]

There's nothing unrealistic about GRRM's characterization of Jon.

Seeing as how all you complainers have

-never been born a bastard

-never been raised in the shadow of their true born brothers their whole lives

-never lost all three brothers

-Known who your mother is and been loved by her

-never been an outcast your whole life

-never be capable of entering the mind of a wolf

-never killed a person

-never seen a massive wall of ice, a wooly mammoth, a giant, a glowing sword, an ice zombie, an other

-Never had sex with a wildling

-Never grown up in the medieval era

-Never been elected as Lord Commander of the nights watch when you are 16

-Never been locked in an ice cage and starved for 10 days

-Never been asked to be a double agent or masquarade as a wildling

-Never spent many months of your lives with Ned Stark, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Mance Rayder, Lord Mormant

-etc etc etc.

I dont think anyone can presume to talk about whether Jon's behavior, or any supposed change of behavior is realistic or not.

Ive been told traumatic events change people. Seems like Jons been through alot of those events. Seems like Jon has alot on his mind. Seems natural that he would make mistakes. Seems natural that the way he'd behave in book 5 would be different from how he'd behave in book 1,2,3,4.

The same applies to all these characters.

I'm not defending the literary decisions GRRM makes. Some of them are questionable to me as well. But keep this in mind when you are commenting on how realistic or organic these characters are.

Their pretty damn real and organic. But that doesnt mean they make for good reading.

Just a precision.I'm not criticizing Martin's writing of the chapter (and if I was I don't see what's wrong with it) when I say "Thas was too weird". I sincerely believe there was more than met the eyes in this last chapter and we'll have our answers in the next book, because of the general feeling I got from it , the abnormal reactions and decisions of the character and even what I thought was unusual writing. And by the way I don't think anyone here is judging the character's reactions from what they would have done in his place.We've had 5 books, 4 if you don't count Feast, to make our mind about the character and become familiar with his way of thinking.

[Buried Treasure]

This would be a great answer if this were a question on a test, but John was in great peril at the time. Melisandre was warning him about daggers in the dark, he knows he has many enemies and that his brothers were watching his every move. Not a time to promote your closest allies to positions far away, nor was it a time to drop the best bodyguard ever in the history of bodyguards.

That wasn't me trying to provide the model answer, it's just how I read Jon based on my own experiences. I'm not a good leader myself but I did the training and I saw other people develop into good (and a few great) leaders - and Jon meets a lot of those criteria. My post was mostly written in response to the critism that Jon did not follow Ned's leadership style by spending time with the men, and I was trying to illustrate that he did.

The decision to send some of his most trusted commanders away is a different question, and not what I took you to be questioning in the OP. I think your original premise was wrong - Jon didn't miss the plot to kill him because he failed to socialize with his men (he did) but because only a small percentage of the men were plotting against him (and he knew they were resistant to his changes, just not the extremes they would go).