This drives me crazy about Lord Snow

[Errant Bard]

In fact yeah, it can't be spelled out any more plainer.

"A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die."

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. It's not a realization, it's an excuse. Robert was friend with his vassals, it didn't prevent him to win his rebellion, in fact he won because of that, and Ned... it's the stick in his ass that killed him.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

MulledWho is quite right. Jon should've learned better leadership skills from his father... even if indirectly from lessons given to Robb. A strong leader needs the unshakable loyalty of his men. If you don't form bonds with your men, that loyalty shall never materialize. Even if Jon didn't want to use that style of leadership permanently, with the radical changes Jon was instituting, the only way that could've happened and WORKED would be with the unshakable - fanatic almost - loyalty of his men. They could have been won over... or if not won over entirely, he at least could have secured their trust/loyalty. Contrast Robb and Jon. Night and day as far as leadership style goes. That's why Robb was so successful, and Jon so unsuccessful.

"But Robb got killed too!" you say. Robb was killed by the filthy Freys and rotten Boltons... the scum of the realm. Jon was knifed by Marsh, his top man... and a good man, I'd say.

The only people Jon spent even a moment to win over were the Wildings in the shield hall before he got shanked. I like Jon. He's an idiot sometimes (see not being made Lord of Winterfell, crowning Stannis, ending the war, reinforcing the wall for the approaching winter) but I like him. His stubbornness-bordering-on-stupidity just gets to me sometimes.

[Faint]

That's why Robb was so successful, and Jon so unsuccessful.

"But Robb got killed too!" you say. Robb was killed by the filthy Freys and rotten Boltons... the scum of the realm. Jon was knifed by Marsh, his top man... and a good man, I'd say.

Are the Boltons and Karstarks not Robb's men? And did they not both betray him? I'd hardly use him as an example of the type of leader you think Jon should have been.

[bloodymime]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. It's not a realization, it's an excuse. Robert was friend with his vassals, it didn't prevent him to win his rebellion, in fact he won because of that, and Ned... it's the stick in his ass that killed him.

First just let me say how it never gets old hearing how a man trying to be decent and honorable is to blame for the treachery of others. Second. Robert? Seriously? That's your example of a good leader? The guy that is cuckolded not once, not twice, but three times because he just has to play buddy buddy I'm your buddy! with everyone including the Kingslayer? The guy with little to no interestest in any parts of leadership that don't involve his hammer?

That scene is pretty clear. Jon walks in thinking to have dinner with his friends only to have the first thing he hears be Pyp mocking the Red God. The god of the army that outnumbers them and looks on them as little more than scum as it is with a strong sect within it of fanatics that enjoy burning people to their Red God. Now Pyp has the luxury of not having to worry about this, it's not his responsibility when shit goes sideways. He gets to look to his Lord Commander to fix everything.

Jon is Lord Commander, he has to consider the worst possibility. He doesn't stop Pyp right there then Pyp keeps going on mocking the Red God until one day one of Stannis's knights hear it and then there's bloodshed between the fanatics and the Night's Watch.

What Pyp does have to do is obey his Lord Commander even if he doesn't understand the why of it. But he can't do that because he's seeing Jon and not his LC and Jon he gets to argue with and wheedle and make excuses and try to take him lightly. As long as these fellow boys see him as Jon their friend they won't take his orders completely seriously, maybe it'll just be little things that never make a difference but Jon as the Lord Commander doesn't have the luxury of thinking 'why worry, what's the worst that could happen' he has to think 'this IS the worst that could happen and here is what I must do to prevent it'.

Jon makes his mistakes but making it clear that things are different and he's no longer just one of the boys isn't one of them. It was interesting that's it is only the supposedly dimwitted Grenn able to understand this. If they both survive I can see him making a strong right hand man for Jon down the line.

[LuisDantas]

Jon reminds me a lot of Daenerys in that his duties may well be destined to fail. Some jobs are simply not feasible. Both Jon and Daenerys have developed the attitude that Daenerys often verbalizes to herself: "If I look back, I am lost".

Trouble is, such an attitude, although quite possibly needed in their situations, is the very definition of alienation.

Jon is handling an impossible situation - and, in fact, doing a superb job at it. But it is simply not within his power to stop his Brothers from nurturing unease at his decisions. He has little choice, yet the amount and frequence of changes to the Night's Watch points of reference to their own self-image is simply too overwhelming to be tolerated. Many of them can't handle it and have began a procedure of self-destruction that has just reached Jon.

Jon's alienation, however, is only partially a choice, and in fact only marginally avoidable. Jon has, quite literally, the power of life and death over every other Night's Watch member. Worse still, he doesn't even have to be overt about it, nor to take pains to disguise any malicious intent if he wants to act on it. They _are_ surrounded by dangers and they do have a duty to take risks there. All he has to do is order specific people into risky situations often enough and they will basically die because he wants them to. Jon himself may even fail to notice that he is doing so.

That is why his dialog with his Brothers is so deeply stymied now, and will remain so as long as he is Lord Commander. It is just too difficult to feel at ease and be casual with someone who may send one to his death without even realizing it.

[Lady of Long Lake]

He didn't want the job as LC and maybe he feels uncomfortable eating with them because he feels unworthy of the exalted position. He fit in with them and felt accepted when he was one of the regular Wall guys. Now, he feels alone again and different from the rest, just like he felt at Winterfell for 14 years.

He was the low guy on the totem pole at Winterfell and the top guy on the totem pole at the Wall. He wants to be in the middle. He wants to be a part of something and feels like he belongs. At least, that's what I think LOL!

[BlueHighwind]

Uch, this is where a three year gap really would have helped this series. End of Storm of Swords, Jon Snow is elected Commander. Open Winds of Winter, suddenly he's like a veteran commander whose been doing this for years now. We don't have to deal with any of this BORING angsty crap about Jon learning how to be a Commander - BADLY, I might add. Do I need to know every single teething detail of where Jon is putting the Wildlings? NO! One goddamn sentence: "I settled the Wildlings on the Wall, the Crows complained, I shut them up." And you're done. That doesn't need to be the plotline of the whole book! Its almost unreadable.

[Mulled Wino]

Ned was born into the ruling family, the men he may have befriended always knew he would be their commander, be it as Lord or Second son knight. There would have been deference towards him regardless.

Jon Snow is a bastard raised up from the ranks, and a fresh NW member to boot.

High placed NW knights who spat on him earlier now have to defer to him, Ned wouldn't have had to suffer that at all.

Ned could act like a bro because deep down his men knew he was the lord.

all the more reason not to insulate yourself.

[Mulled Wino]

Ned grew up in Winterfel, and he had years of routine peaceful matters to establish a rapport with his entire chain of command. Ned was also always highborn even if not the heir. Jon had been an equal with the NW and becomes commander amidst a crisis with no time to adjust to the role himself or time for his subordinates to feel him out. There is always an adjustment period with a new leader, more so when the leader is elevated from among equals. He can't continue to sit and have dinner with his friends without creating a sense of favortism among others and fostering insubordination in his friends. Jon knew plenty of people were pissed. But being pissed and wanting to murder you commander are two different things. Even wanting to kill your commander and actually trying to kill your commander are a far cry apart.

I'd be smarter to continue to at least sit with allies on occasion than to completely lose your lines of communication with all the NW except Sam. Even smarter is to bring your enemies close to you.

He made quite a few strategic errors, and when you are newly elected or promoted to leadership, YOU DON'T forget your lessons. That is the time to use lessons you learned form say a Lord Father as opposed to just going in blindly and starting with a clean slate. That's the point of lessons.

[dreamcatcher]

I'd be smarter to continue to at least sit with allies on occasion than to completely lose your lines of communication with all the NW except Sam. Even smarter is to bring your enemies close to you.

He made quite a few strategic errors, and when you are newly elected or promoted to leadership, YOU DON'T forget your lessons. That is the time to use lessons you learned form say a Lord Father as opposed to just going in blindly and starting with a clean slate. That's the point of lessons.

Ned was a leader when Robert was dying. And look where that brought him? Ned wouldn't last a week at the Wall.

[Mulled Wino]

Jon reminds me a lot of Daenerys in that his duties may well be destined to fail. Some jobs are simply not feasible. Both Jon and Daenerys have developed the attitude that Daenerys often verbalizes to herself: "If I look back, I am lost".

Trouble is, such an attitude, although quite possibly needed in their situations, is the very definition of alienation.

Jon is handling an impossible situation - and, in fact, doing a superb job at it. But it is simply not within his power to stop his Brothers from nurturing unease at his decisions. He has little choice, yet the amount and frequence of changes to the Night's Watch points of reference to their own self-image is simply too overwhelming to be tolerated. Many of them can't handle it and have began a procedure of self-destruction that has just reached Jon.

Jon's alienation, however, is only partially a choice, and in fact only marginally avoidable. Jon has, quite literally, the power of life and death over every other Night's Watch member. Worse still, he doesn't even have to be overt about it, nor to take pains to disguise any malicious intent if he wants to act on it. They _are_ surrounded by dangers and they do have a duty to take risks there. All he has to do is order specific people into risky situations often enough and they will basically die because he wants them to. Jon himself may even fail to notice that he is doing so.

That is why his dialog with his Brothers is so deeply stymied now, and will remain so as long as he is Lord Commander. It is just too difficult to feel at ease and be casual with someone who may send one to his death without even realizing it.

I wouldn't say a "superb" job. He makes quite a few errors, but he has an real problem with Stannis occupying the NW and then leaving, then dealing with The Queen and Florent, along with trying to reverse 8000 years of war with the wildlings.

But times are changing and he doesn't politic enough to people like bowen Marsh and get them to understand the real enemy.

And as was mentioned, he was consulting and talking to the wildlings more than his own sorn Brothers, surely anyone would recognize the problems there.

[Mulled Wino]

Ned was a leader when Robert was dying. And look where that brought him? Ned wouldn't last a week at the Wall.

WTF does that mean? How do you figure that? Ned was a pretty successful leader in the North and he wasn't elected any sort of leader in KL-like john was. Which means Jon had far more allies from the get-go than Ned ever ever ever had at KL.

Apples to oranges, bad comparison

[dreamcatcher]

WTF does that mean? How do you figure that? Ned was a pretty successful leader in the North and he wasn't elected any sort of leader in KL-like john was. Which means Jon had far more allies from the get-go than Ned ever ever ever had at KL.

Apples to oranges, bad comparison

He would probably die the day Jon had to kill Qhorin and pretend he was a Wildling.

[gandalfxj]

Jon will just get stronger through this experience. Once he recovers from his wounds some heads will roll and the nights watch will be the better for it. In the beginning of book one the narrator made a point of it that Jon notices more of what is going on than other people. Lately however he was so occupied with the wildlings, that he ignored everything that was going on around him. He won't make that mistake again. What I wonder is what happens at the wall while Jon recovers. Will the wildlings take over? For some dubious reason the attackers waited until all the wildlings where on the other side of the wall........

[Mulled Wino]

He would probably die the day Jon had to kill Qhorin and pretend he was a Wildling.

so that has what to do with the topic?

[gandalfxj]

Both Ned and Jon are too honorable to notice that other people might think differently. They need a bit of littlefinger in them. Maybe Jon learns from the latest stabbing

[Mulled Wino]

Jon will just get stronger through this experience. Once he recovers from his wounds some heads will roll and the nights watch will be the better for it. In the beginning of book one the narrator made a point of it that Jon notices more of what is going on than other people. Lately however he was so occupied with the wildlings, that he ignored everything that was going on around him. He won't make that mistake again. What I wonder is what happens at the wall while Jon recovers. Will the wildlings take over? For some dubious reason the attackers waited until all the wildlings where on the other side of the wall........

If he stays alive, I hope he does,. I like him a lot, i just don't see why he makes so many blunders.... especially with Ghost. as well

[gandalfxj]

Jon will stay alive. There is no other POV charakter at the Wall. Also, there is to much invested in the development of the charakter to just kill him off now. He will learn from this and start to get a little smarter and less trusting.

[dreamcatcher]

so that has what to do with the topic?

Wow, first you quote me really butthurtedly, then when I answer you, you say that's offtopic. Guess what, not all threads on this forum are on-topic, most of them aren't, because speculation needs to include OTHER things as well.

[jon rr stark]

Jon was trying to walk the middle ground being on good terms with with his brothers while also distancing himself from them. He did not take the trappings of power by taking the best tower for his residence but remaind in the back od a forge. How more down with it could he be. Ned eat with his men but with him siting on the high table, they had the honour of sitting above the salt with him. Jon has no such chance to show favour they are all in a hall together. Ned could go visit his bannermen to again show favour but Jon is constantly living with them. The previous LC lived aloft in their tower but Jon didnt want to appear as he was looking down on his men as he was so young. Jons real problem is there is a situation in the NW which hasen't been seen for thousands of years, the force is completely incapable of dealing or even accepting the threat. If he was just buddies with the brothers they would have told him to bog off already. Its the deeply conservative element in the NW which cannot get their collective head around the current situation, not the rangers. Basically whatever he did someone was going to stab him in the back, or in the face in Stannis's case. I think his biggest mistake might have been sending dolours edd away because he was so trustworthy and not having a right hand man. Ricker to his Pichard to get the vibe.