From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[brashcandy]

So, isn't that interesting ? Our sweet Sansa seems to like her big Hound... :P

This is one of the reasons I don't want to see "the Hound" die completely on QI. I hope Sandor will always keep a part of Hound in him.

I think this is why his helm is still out there being used by sadistic outlaws and getting him implicated in crimes he didn't commit. At the end of day, we may "kill" or shed certain identities, but we can't ever be truly freed of them and the impact they've had on our development. Sandor will still have to live with and deal with the consequences of having been the Hound, some of it positive, most of it negative.

What's the alternative, then? She did allow herself to enjoy the illusion of being a minor lord's bastard, but I don't know if that'll last after the comparative relief wears off.

That doesn't mean she wants to stop being a Stark or run away without her own identity.

My contention is not that Sansa wants to do away with her Stark identity or that she'll never reclaim it. It's simply that at this point in her story, she's really beginning to enjoy the freedom of being Alayne, and I don't think she's going to be very excited to give it up as soon as LF seems to be planning. Sansa will always be a Stark, whether she claims that name or not, but right now I see her wanting to fully explore her adopted persona and when/if she reclaims her Stark name I don't see her wanting to do so via a politically arranged marriage.

[Queen of Winter]

Personally I think Sansa will or could marry again for love, I don't know if it will be with the Hound or not. It will be Arya who will marry for political reasons.

I could see where this might happen.

In the beginning of the books, Sansa started out believing in "true knights" and wanting to be Queen one day. Throughout her tale, she begins to realize "flesh and blood" knights are rarely like the ones in her stories, and I don't think she has any serious ambitions to be Queen any longer. I think when all is said and done, she will choose to be a small fish in a large pond.

Sometimes I do think it will be Arya who will be involved with politics. Remember how well she used to get along with the commonfolk back in Winterfell? (And think of how she defended Mycah against Joffrey). Sansa has come a long way, but I think Arya might understand them more than Sansa does. We assume Arya admires Queen Nymeria of the Rhoyne (a.k.a--the Warrior Queen), since she named her direwolf after her. I'm not saying that she'll end up a Queen, but she might make an interesting ruler of a holding (being fair and just, fighting for the "little people").

Edit: spelling

[Maroucia]

She also doesn't know how to adress him. She obviously doesn't want to call him "dog" like the others, and can't call him "Ser". We see her once try "my lord" but it doesn't work better than "Ser" ("I'm no lord, no more than I'm a knight"). The only time she speaks of him and before him (just after the riot), she says "The Hound".

So, isn't that interesting ? Our sweet Sansa seems to like her big Hound... :P

This is one of the reasons I don't want to see "the Hound" die completely on QI. I hope Sandor will always keep a part of Hound in him.

I agree with you 1000000% on that!!!

I would hate for him to change too much, or worst, to be Lancelled… :ack:

The death of the Hound is really a metaphorical way to see the taming of his rage, which is highly needed, I think no one will argue about that.

But!

Taming is no synonym to destroying! The rage would still be there, waiting to be channelled into some epic battle, or even better, to protect some bastard girl that is hanging in the Vale right now… :drunk:

[Bolivar]

I was read the ASoS bit where Robb speaks of succession and Catelyn mentions Rickard's aunt marrying a Royce, and her daughters marrying Waynwoods, Corbrays, and a third, and was curious if it's possible Harry is 'the Heir' by being heir to Winterfell either through blood or Robb's will. It would be bittersweet if everyone in the Vale knew it but Sansa and she would have to keep on going as Alayne in order to avoid her marriage with Tyrion. At the very least, I wonder if Harry and Sansa are actually related.

[Kittykatknits]

Apart from Littlefinger, he is one of the few people around who actually know what Sansa Stark looks like. Even Jaime has never really interacted with her and probably only remember her very vaguely. Brienne has never seen her. The Vale people have either never seen her, or once when she was much younger (Bronze Yohn Royce). UnCat is well...dead, and probably won't move around much. The rest of the BWB might stand a chance if some northman spots her, but even so, if her hair is brown and she's much older...it may be difficult.

So yes, I think something with reclaiming her identity is going to happen. Especially since he's always been really brutal with the truth and all that.

Oh,this is a good point. I had always thought of him helping her to lose the Alayne persona or that he would help her recognize that the strength she drew from Alayne is really within herself. But, these are really good points!!! This just makes me even more firm in my belief in what will happen.

The lost of Lady has so many choices for GRRM I think it will fall on how he feels about her.

Sansa dies, Sansa lost her wolf she's no longer a Stark ( this part for now is true X 2 ), she can't warg ( of course she can ) will she stay a bastard or actually become No One, of all the characters in Martin's book she is probably in the top 1 or 3 most realistic arcs, for us readers it an emotional roller coaster (can I use that as a male?), I hope she doesn't loose who she is, of all the kids she is most like Ned deep down but I think wiser on the political front, from what she endured so far, and I think she is smart enough to find a loop hole to keep the wrong people from taking what is her siblings and her birth right.

My bittersweet thought (nightmare) is that they all meet in Winterfell and seeing the devastation decide not to rebuild and they go their own way and maybe the lost of House Stark.

I agree that Sansa is one of the most realistic characters in the series. I know Arya is popular, and I like her too, but her character really does lack realism when compared to her sister.

That bittersweet thought just breaks my heart...I'm not sure I could stand that.

I also agree with brashcandy's point about Sansa and marriage - I would be truly disappointed if she ended up married to Willas (or similar lord). It would feel like she had learned everything for nothing. Her fantasies about playing with puppies with him is truly cringeworthy. Of course her character would still have evolved but it would have less impact, for me personally, if she married someone that she didn't get to employ her new fierceness with.

What I enjoy about the Alayne character - as sad as I find that arc and how much she has given up of herself - is that it is giving her the freedom to explore a more political, fierce and willful side of her spirit. Like I said before about her and Sandor being inverses of each other (him learning to calm the rage, her learning to live in a political world and manipulate people), she needs this time to explore this side of her. So while I agree that ultimately I don't think she will lose that sweet side of her, I think as long as she is Alayne, it is on the backburner.

Rapsie - that is such a great suggestion regarding rebuilding Winterfell! I think that snowbuilding scene could definitely be foreshadowing that outcome but if so, I doubt we would see it until the final book because winter is hardly the ideal construction season, what with the Others making their rapid descent.

I don't like the idea of her marrying Willas either. It would be going back to the childish fantasy of pleasure barges and puppies. Dontos rightfully pointed out that the Roses were the same as the Lions, they just smelled sweeter. She would go back to being a pawn, even with Willas. They want her for her claim.

This is the biggest reason why I think she will not want to marry Harry as well. LF presented this marriage as a positive, she'd have the Vale army to help claim her home. But, really, that is just a nice way of saying she is being married off for her claim. Of course, I don't believe LF either....

I have my own theory about the rebuilding of WF. We know the ghost saw Sansa building a castle built of snow. I think this does refer to the WF she built. But, I think her building that snow castly is further foreshadowing of the larger event. The Ghost lists off several big events - Joff's death and the Red Wedding for examle. This seems minor in comparison. But, if it is further hint of what is to come, then I think it makes more sense.

[Valkyrja]

Maybe Sansa's rebuilding scene simply shows that Winterfell cannot be rebuilt (by her or anyone else) until the 'giant' (from the prophecy) and all the other 'monsters' are slain....

[Raksha the Demon]

Thank you much all for the very warm welcome!

I completely agree with that interpretation regarding the names - in a way Sandor can remain nameless as there is only one 'he' that she could be referring to, and that is the power of the lack of name usage. So thank you for your insight!

I also agree with brashcandy's point about Sansa and marriage - I would be truly disappointed if she ended up married to Willas (or similar lord). It would feel like she had learned everything for nothing. Her fantasies about playing with puppies with him is truly cringeworthy. Of course her character would still have evolved but it would have less impact, for me personally, if she married someone that she didn't get to employ her new fierceness with.

What I enjoy about the Alayne character - as sad as I find that arc and how much she has given up of herself - is that it is giving her the freedom to explore a more political, fierce and willful side of her spirit. Like I said before about her and Sandor being inverses of each other (him learning to calm the rage, her learning to live in a political world and manipulate people), she needs this time to explore this side of her. So while I agree that ultimately I don't think she will lose that sweet side of her, I think as long as she is Alayne, it is on the backburner.

Rapsie - that is such a great suggestion regarding rebuilding Winterfell! I think that snowbuilding scene could definitely be foreshadowing that outcome but if so, I doubt we would see it until the final book because winter is hardly the ideal construction season, what with the Others making their rapid descent.

Maroucia - thank you for understanding what I meant about the f*ck her bloody scene and expanding upon it so eloquently. I think that background dovetails nicely with my interpretation of the scene and also highlights why their relationship is so unique.

One thing I have been thinking about more recently is about her Little Bird moniker. Of course Sandor teases her about being in a gilded cage, and repeating what she is supposed to say, but there is also a Varys connection in that Sansa is very much like his little birds. It her action to whisper to Cersei her father's intentions to whisk them away that catalyzes his imprisonment and ultimately, the war. Of course I don't blame her, but in this act, she is very much a little bird and while this isn't an original realization by any means, it only struck me recently!

I wouldn't mind Sansa being married to a lord like Willas; as long as it was a marriage where Sansa was respected and valued and could wield influence instead of just being a pretty trophy and brood mare. If she does marry, I hope she gets a marriage like the one her parents had; Catelyn had power at Winterfell second only to that of Ned or (until Robb's majority) their oldest son; and even then, she went to war with her son, was his emissary, etc. If she does not marry any man who is highborn or another type of power, than Sansa/Alayne will find it extremely difficult to gain power and influence herself in Westeros. She could potentially, if she remains Alayne, inherit Littlefinger's wealth if Littlefinger manages to legitimize her before dying; but that's a big if...Or I suppose, Alayne Stone could become a Septa and become a powerful religious leader.

Actually, I found Sansa's fantasies of playing with the puppies as Willas' wife to be touching and very realistic. I'd find Willas an extremely appealing lure myself if he even came close to living up to the description given by his sister - intelligent, kind-hearted, scholarly, loves animals; and is heir to a rich and wealthy lordship/estate. Of course, I love playing with puppies...But to a very young girl in Sansa's position in ASOS, a hostage surrounded by people who want to use her and/or hurt her, a girl who has been beaten and humiliated, the promise of a marriage that will take her away from her captors and place her in a beautiful estate where she would be the wife of its heir, to have a husband who is both powerful and kind - that would be like a lifeline thrown to a drowning person. And even then, fantasizing about Willas, Sansa was not quite as naive as she had been a year or two before; she forced herself to acknowledge that Willas might not be handsome, that she should not think of him as a knight in shining armor so he would see disappointment in her eyes, and she vowed to make him love her - which is not only touching, it implied a welcome lack of passivity, a resolve to take at least part of her destiny into her own hands.

I am not sure that Sansa, even after being politically trained as Alayne, would ever be the type of woman who loves playing politics for the sake of politics itself. I can definitely see her as playing the Game to protect herself and those she loves, and even to advance their interests (though hopefully in a less ruthless way than certain others, at least in terms of harming or killing people just for self-advancement); it's what her father never learned and should have, and what her mother tried to do. But she's not a Littlefinger, someone who thrives on bringing chaos and using people in a pretty callous way to gain power. Even though the Lannisters have hurt Sansa and destroyed her family, she did not spend time in revenge schemes; her main desire was to escape them; and even now, relatively safe in the Vale, she does not fantasize about killing Tyrion or seeing Cersei suffer.

[Caro99]

Lady, loved your post, welcome! And then Maroucia gave a great response to it as well! In a way Sandor is still a bit “immature” since what Gregor did to him was traumatic, so he has been thus far unable to relate to others and hasn’t known love for many years (I’m sure his mother and sister did), and he’s been telling himself that he hates foolish people who think knights are good and honest, so when Sansa comes along, representing this, he both hates it, and yet can relate to it. And so that frustration turned to a tender feeling he hadn’t known he was able of having, and it took him a long time to stop deluding himself he was incapable of harvesting such feelings. :rolleyes: (& by the way, I also related the Cersei/Sansa scene a little to Sandor since Cersei mentions hounds in one of her lines, and I can see a future Sansa making decisions which she knows aren’t right for the sake of- shall we dare call it future love?? ^_^

About Randa and her future with Sansa- I got the feelings that they will get along greatly, but it is worth it to consider Randa seems a little ambitious and wants LF, so i see 2 ways for her to go: if she keeps on believing Alayne is who she claims to be, she’ll either befriend her to get close to LF, and if she married him, she would either be a nice step-mum to Sansa (since Alayne is a bastard, Randa’s trueborn children wouldn’t be threatened by her/or she can become the evil step mother.... OR she can learn who Sansa really is and either help her or not.

& going back to Lady’s post, and how Sansa never calls Sandor by his first name and Sandor never calls Sansa by her first name at least to her face either, well, i think that the nicknames they’ve “given” to each other (LB and he) are sort of mysterious cause they’re “relationship” is under the radar. So if the world ever finds out about them and they can finally end up together (& maybe the world doesn’t need to find out about it, but both of them have to realize that they feel something for the other and acknowledge it), then- and only then- will they be able to call the other by their first names.

And then there was some talk about his helm and how since it is still being made a use of it can represent that Sandor won’t lose all of his fierce personality, even if the Hound is now dead... this made me imagine Sandor and Sansa in the end together, and going off into the woods to bury the helm so Sandor can let his past rest in peace at long last and then he and Sansa leave the woods holding hands :wub: sorry, i'm a hopeless romantic :blush:

To wrap it up, about Sansa being able to explore a not so “ladylike” proper behavior as Alayne, I hope she returns to being Sansa, (i could only accept alayne to stay forever if it is as Brash said cause then she can be free to stay with Sandor) but even if she returns to being sansa, I’m positive some of the Alayne traits will remain with her- whether they are political learning or just a sort of freedom and rebellion against the rules. There’s been some talk some weeks ago about how Westeros seems likely to be ruled by women mostly, so I’m sure the likes of myrcella, dany, margaery, and arianne wouldn’t make a really big fuss if sansa stark refused to marry someone for political gain, and chose instead to follow her heart or keep a lover... the north men may be harder to convince, but they would get around the idea at the end, I hope.

[Lyanna Stark]

I wouldn't mind Sansa being married to a lord like Willas; as long as it was a marriage where Sansa was respected and valued and could wield influence instead of just being a pretty trophy and brood mare.

The thing is, if Sansa married Willas she'd be like Garlan's wife: pretty, but very much confined to "lady matters". Willas is already a leader in his own right and the leader of the Tyrell forces around Highgarden. He's the one who is devising strategies to defend the reach. Sansa as a wife to this type of high lord would be ornamental and a means to produce heirs. As a player in the Game, she would be dead in the water. Willas Tyrell would not let her work politicially. The South is also not the North. Cat was Hoster Tully's oldest daughter and ran his household after his mother died. For many years, she was his heir, before Edmure was born. Ned is a younger son and not meant to be the Lord of Winterfell, so in many ways, Cat had the advantage over Ned, hence why they work quite well as equals.

And oldest son and heir or some high lord, or someone like Tyrion who has already held power would very likely *never* let Sansa near power. If Sansa wants to wield power in her own right, she needs to find another way. Either by marrying someone she can rule completely, or at least mostly (like Sweetrobin) or someone who, like Ned, recognises her political smarts and isn't directly interested in wielding that sort of power himself. Or maybe someone as thick as Mace Tyrell, who doesn't realise his mother is the real schemer. Or she could marry a Dornish, since they seem to value women more, but that seems a bit far fetched as it stands now.

It also seems like Sansa is coming to enjoy the Game for itself. Sure, she's still scared of the lying and the murderous side of it, but she also loves feeling clever and figuring things out. There's also the fact that some things you cannot revert once the change as taken place. Sansa's innocence has been taken away and she is learning how to get by in a really harsh reality. She cannot go back to a sheltered life, I believe, since she has already been too changed for that. She'd always see the shallowness and falseness of gallantry and courteous behaviour. Already in ASOS she is dismissive of Margaery's friends since she finds them childish. At the same time she misses being childish and innocent since she realises she never will be again.

What I feel fairly secure in saying at this point is that Sansa doesn't want to return to being a Lady. Not the Lady of Winterfell, not Lady Lannister and not the Lady wife of Harry the heir. All of her negative experiences when it comes to marriage and betrothals have been due to people wanting to use her claim to her Stark birthright.

Indeed. Lady dying probably signifies more that the old Sansa, the most ladylike of all the Starks, perished, just like the Hound persona died at the Trident, Sansa's innocence and proper lady persona died in Kings Landing. Instead she has to rely and find other sides of herself. She has to be resourceful, brave, deceptive and clever, none of which are traits that are valued in a "lady".

To wrap it up, about Sansa being able to explore a not so “ladylike” proper behavior as Alayne, I hope she returns to being Sansa, (i could only accept alayne to stay forever if it is as Brash said cause then she can be free to stay with Sandor) but even if she returns to being sansa, I’m positive some of the Alayne traits will remain with her- whether they are political learning or just a sort of freedom and rebellion against the rules. There’s been some talk some weeks ago about how Westeros seems likely to be ruled by women mostly, so I’m sure the likes of myrcella, dany, margaery, and arianne wouldn’t make a really big fuss if sansa stark refused to marry someone for political gain, and chose instead to follow her heart or keep a lover... the north men may be harder to convince, but they would get around the idea at the end, I hope.

Westeros has a lot of women in potential positions of power. Even the extremely misogynist Iron Islands may end up with a matriarch in Asha. It also matches with what happens in history during wartime: women have to step up and take responsibility since there are fewer men left.

I've argued before that the "current" generation of women are different and more modern than previous generations, or at least we *know* that they are and get insight into their mindsets. Asha, Sansa, Arya and Dany all rue having to marry for convenience instead of picking a mate of their own choosing (or not marry at all) and they all rebel or think about rebelling against it. This is a rather modern point of view, and we as readers have come to sympathise with their plight. In this they are not really in step with Westerosi society in general though so it will be very interesting to see how GRRM resolves this. I think forcing them into marriages of convenience would not be bittersweet, but cruel, so hopefully none of them will be forced to do that.

It's also intriguing to ponder how LF will enable Sansa to become a player and overcome the fact that she's female and how she can learn to use that against people. Cersei has already taught her some basics, but I'm sure LF has more refined methods of playing people, using their expectations, their wishes and their dreams to trap them.

One essential point about Westeros is that rash infatuation is bad, so hopefully by becoming politically aware and skilled, Sansa can engineer it so that she will not have to engage in "doomed love" like in the tragic songs, but in something that is both of her own choosing, but also has a realistic basis, i.e. it needs to be more Ned/Cat than Lyanna/Rhaegar.

[Raksha the Demon]

The thing is, if Sansa married Willas she'd be like Garlan's wife: pretty, but very much confined to "lady matters". Willas is already a leader in his own right and the leader of the Tyrell forces around Highgarden. He's the one who is devising strategies to defend the reach. Sansa as a wife to this type of high lord would be ornamental and a means to produce heirs. As a player in the Game, she would be dead in the water. Willas Tyrell would not let her work politicially. The South is also not the North. Cat was Hoster Tully's oldest daughter and ran his household after his mother died. For many years, she was his heir, before Edmure was born. Ned is a younger son and not meant to be the Lord of Winterfell, so in many ways, Cat had the advantage over Ned, hence why they work quite well as equals.

And oldest son and heir or some high lord, or someone like Tyrion who has already held power would very likely *never* let Sansa near power. If Sansa wants to wield power in her own right, she needs to find another way. Either by marrying someone she can rule completely, or at least mostly (like Sweetrobin) or someone who, like Ned, recognises her political smarts and isn't directly interested in wielding that sort of power himself. Or maybe someone as thick as Mace Tyrell, who doesn't realise his mother is the real schemer. Or she could marry a Dornish, since they seem to value women more, but that seems a bit far fetched as it stands now.

It also seems like Sansa is coming to enjoy the Game for itself. Sure, she's still scared of the lying and the murderous side of it, but she also loves feeling clever and figuring things out. There's also the fact that some things you cannot revert once the change as taken place. Sansa's innocence has been taken away and she is learning how to get by in a really harsh reality. She cannot go back to a sheltered life, I believe, since she has already been too changed for that. She'd always see the shallowness and falseness of gallantry and courteous behaviour. Already in ASOS she is dismissive of Margaery's friends since she finds them childish. At the same time she misses being childish and innocent since she realises she never will be again.

Indeed. Lady dying probably signifies more that the old Sansa, the most ladylike of all the Starks, perished, just like the Hound persona died at the Trident, Sansa's innocence and proper lady persona died in Kings Landing. Instead she has to rely and find other sides of herself. She has to be resourceful, brave, deceptive and clever, none of which are traits that are valued in a "lady".

Westeros has a lot of women in potential positions of power. Even the extremely misogynist Iron Islands may end up with a matriarch in Asha. It also matches with what happens in history during wartime: women have to step up and take responsibility since there are fewer men left.

I've argued before that the "current" generation of women are different and more modern than previous generations, or at least we *know* that they are and get insight into their mindsets. Asha, Sansa, Arya and Dany all rue having to marry for convenience instead of picking a mate of their own choosing (or not marry at all) and they all rebel or think about rebelling against it. This is a rather modern point of view, and we as readers have come to sympathise with their plight. In this they are not really in step with Westerosi society in general though so it will be very interesting to see how GRRM resolves this. I think forcing them into marriages of convenience would not be bittersweet, but cruel, so hopefully none of them will be forced to do that.

It's also intriguing to ponder how LF will enable Sansa to become a player and overcome the fact that she's female and how she can learn to use that against people. Cersei has already taught her some basics, but I'm sure LF has more refined methods of playing people, using their expectations, their wishes and their dreams to trap them.

One essential point about Westeros is that rash infatuation is bad, so hopefully by becoming politically aware and skilled, Sansa can engineer it so that she will not have to engage in "doomed love" like in the tragic songs, but in something that is both of her own choosing, but also has a realistic basis, i.e. it needs to be more Ned/Cat than Lyanna/Rhaegar.

I'm not sure that Willas Tyrell is so old-fashioned about limiting the roles of women in his family. We don't know that much about Garlan's wife - she may prefer to be ornamental rather than active in the game. What she is not is confined to Highgarden makin' babies; she's at Garlan's side at King's Landing during at least some of the time in ASOS. If Willas is calling the shots in terms of Tyrell family political activity, he has chosen to stay behind-the-scenes at home while sending forth two of the family's most able political players - the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, an 80+-year-old woman and a 16-year-old girl - into a sophisticated court run by a dangerous queen and her even more dangerous father, to secure the greatest matrimonial prize of all, the young king. Margaery is, on the surface, quite ornamental and a maiden offered as a future bride and mother-of-heirs to various high lords; but neither her beauty nor her youth stop her from being a knowledgeable piece in the game, trying to gradually strengthen her hold on little King Tommen while making him a more successful future king. While Margaery is guarded, by her brother and maids/cousins and now her father's proximity, she is not sheltered. If Sansa married into the Tyrell family, I doubt that her budding political acumen would be wasted, even while she was producing little Tyrells.

I'd be happy if Sansa married Willas; because I do think he would be the kind of husband who would give Sansa some latitude and treat her like a friend and partner, not just a trophy wife, as well as being capable of admiring her beauty. I'd also be happy if Sansa became Regent of Winterfell for little Rickon, and married a Northern lord (maybe even a Wildling who had fought Others) and maintained a position of influence. I only want her married because I think Sansa would enjoy being married to the right man, she would like having a man she could trust to care for her and support her while she did the same for him, and she would be more comfortable having trueborn children than bastards.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm not sure that Willas Tyrell is so old-fashioned about limiting the roles of women in his family. We don't know that much about Garlan's wife - she may prefer to be ornamental rather than active in the game. What she is not is confined to Highgarden makin' babies; she's at Garlan's side at King's Landing during at least some of the time in ASOS.

I don't think it has to do with being old fashioned. There is no movement towards modernity in Westeros. No emancipation, socialism or anything of the sort. Willas as far as we can tell from Garlan seems kind and competent, but not unconventional. There is also no reason at all for the Tyrells to trust Sansa, nor involve her in their plans. Although Mrs Garlan Tyrell is not only home with the kids, she's at his side in KL not as a co-player or any sort of political power, but as an ornament. Garlan donned Renly's armour, Garlan speaks to Tyrion at the wedding, not Garlan's wife. She's a pretty face at his side.

If Willas is calling the shots in terms of Tyrell family political activity, he has chosen to stay behind-the-scenes at home while sending forth two of the family's most able political players - the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, an 80+-year-old woman and a 16-year-old girl - into a sophisticated court run by a dangerous queen and her even more dangerous father, to secure the greatest matrimonial prize of all, the young king. Margaery is, on the surface, quite ornamental and a maiden offered as a future bride and mother-of-heirs to various high lords; but neither her beauty nor her youth stop her from being a knowledgeable piece in the game, trying to gradually strengthen her hold on little King Tommen while making him a more successful future king. While Margaery is guarded, by her brother and maids/cousins and now her father's proximity, she is not sheltered. If Sansa married into the Tyrell family, I doubt that her budding political acumen would be wasted, even while she was producing little Tyrells.

Willas is a cripple, hence why he doesn't go to KL. As for whether he has sent the QoT or not, I imagine the QoT and Margaery are plotting outside of Willas' domain. There is nothing to indicate that they are in cahoots. They *might* be, but not necessarily. The Queen of Thorns may be old, but she's one of the main players for House Tyrell in Kings Landing, not Willas. Her age is not necessarily a weakness either, since people tend to underestimate her. Littlefinger does not, however, but Tyrion does! The same goes for Margaery.

However, Olenna and Margaery are plotting together most likely, and there is no reason I can see why they would welcome Sansa. In fact, especially Olenna seems to think Sansa is really daft. Willas likewise has no reason to take into his confidence a random Stark girl. What can he stand to gain? Especially if according to the rest of his family and conventional wisdom is that she's thick as a plank. Logic dictates the Tyrells would be polite and nice, but Sansa is still essentially a pawn if she gets placed in the Tyrell camp. A highborn, probably pampered pawn, but a pawn all the same.

[Queen of Winter]

Thank you! :kiss: I think your point on naming and how it can have power over someone is quite relevant too, particularly as it relates to Sansa and Sandor and other characters like Arya and Theon.

Thanks brash! :grouphug: Regarding Arya, I was also thinking of her "hit list" that she would recite each night before she went to sleep. I definitely think her naming the people she wanted revenge on gave her power over them (especially when you consider what happened to most of those people! :o )

[brashcandy]

Westeros has a lot of women in potential positions of power. Even the extremely misogynist Iron Islands may end up with a matriarch in Asha. It also matches with what happens in history during wartime: women have to step up and take responsibility since there are fewer men left.

I've argued before that the "current" generation of women are different and more modern than previous generations, or at least we *know* that they are and get insight into their mindsets. Asha, Sansa, Arya and Dany all rue having to marry for convenience instead of picking a mate of their own choosing (or not marry at all) and they all rebel or think about rebelling against it. This is a rather modern point of view, and we as readers have come to sympathise with their plight. In this they are not really in step with Westerosi society in general though so it will be very interesting to see how GRRM resolves this. I think forcing them into marriages of convenience would not be bittersweet, but cruel, so hopefully none of them will be forced to do that.

It's also intriguing to ponder how LF will enable Sansa to become a player and overcome the fact that she's female and how she can learn to use that against people. Cersei has already taught her some basics, but I'm sure LF has more refined methods of playing people, using their expectations, their wishes and their dreams to trap them.

One essential point about Westeros is that rash infatuation is bad, so hopefully by becoming politically aware and skilled, Sansa can engineer it so that she will not have to engage in "doomed love" like in the tragic songs, but in something that is both of her own choosing, but also has a realistic basis, i.e. it needs to be more Ned/Cat than Lyanna/Rhaegar.

Great post, Lyanna. Last year when I was still a relative newbie on the board, I made a thread called Westerosi Wonder Women which was about exploring just how women are beginning to assume the reins of power in Westerosi society, with many of the patriarchs dying out and women no longer feeling content to wilt away their potential in loveless/politically convenient marriages.

I really do think this is the direction Sansa is heading in, perhaps needs to head in, if she is going to know what true happiness and independence really is. Marrying Willas Tyrell would be a regression to a state where, although she had some choice in the matter, she was making a decision based on her circumstances as a prisoner and pawn of the Lannisters. It showed a lot of maturity on her part that she was able to rationalise and come to terms with marrying a man sight unseen, but I think we can all admit that this was not an ideal situation in any sense of the term. Love and marriage should not rely on hopes and wishes - which is really what women in the older generation like Cat and Cersei had to accept as the norm, but rather on a real, substantive relationship that you are able to build with someone, or at least it there should be true desire between the two parties. We've seen why Asha rejects Tris Botley in favour of Qarl the maid (and her husband back in the Iron Isles), why Dany is torn between love and duty when it comes to Hizdahr and Daario. The old standard was to accept that love must be a necessary sacrifice to power, but these women are rebelling against this and instead choosing to pursue power without sacrifing their personal happiness and integrity.

One of the things I noted in the Wonder women thread was how many of the males are actually only able to achieve their successes through the women around them, and no where is this more evident than with LF and his treatment of Cat, Lysa and Sansa. LF might be a skilled manipulator, but he's only been able to triumph because women like Lysa and Cat, blinded by old love and old trust respectively, made themselves pawns in his game. The challenge for Sansa will be to see LF for what he really is (which should be clear after his revelation of the plans for Sweetrobin) and to realise that she's the one with the power, not him. LF's attempt to teach Sansa the game is ultimately geared towards entrapping her futhur to his desires, not to allow her true autonomy and freedom. This is only something that Sansa can negotiate for herself, and yes, one element of this entails choosing a partner with whom one can have an honest and fulfilling relationship.

[brashcandy]

Thanks brash! :grouphug: Regarding Arya, I was also thinking of her "hit list" that she would recite each night before she went to sleep. I definitely think her naming the people she wanted revenge on gave her power over them (especially when you consider what happened to most of those people! :o )

Excellent point. It reminds of when Sansa is in the sept during the Blackwater Battle and she is careful to list out the names of all those she wants to remember and pay tribute to. We can choose to have power over names, or those same names can have power over us. I think that Arya's arc is about learning how to control the urge "to name" i.e. the urge to seek revenge, and to instead become a lot more discerning about whom she kills and whose life she spares. It's ironic that the Hound would have been her first teacher in this regard.

[Kittykatknits]

About Randa and her future with Sansa- I got the feelings that they will get along greatly, but it is worth it to consider Randa seems a little ambitious and wants LF, so i see 2 ways for her to go: if she keeps on believing Alayne is who she claims to be, she’ll either befriend her to get close to LF, and if she married him, she would either be a nice step-mum to Sansa (since Alayne is a bastard, Randa’s trueborn children wouldn’t be threatened by her/or she can become the evil step mother.... OR she can learn who Sansa really is and either help her or not.

<snip>

To wrap it up, about Sansa being able to explore a not so “ladylike” proper behavior as Alayne, I hope she returns to being Sansa, (i could only accept alayne to stay forever if it is as Brash said cause then she can be free to stay with Sandor) but even if she returns to being sansa, I’m positive some of the Alayne traits will remain with her- whether they are political learning or just a sort of freedom and rebellion against the rules. There’s been some talk some weeks ago about how Westeros seems likely to be ruled by women mostly, so I’m sure the likes of myrcella, dany, margaery, and arianne wouldn’t make a really big fuss if sansa stark refused to marry someone for political gain, and chose instead to follow her heart or keep a lover... the north men may be harder to convince, but they would get around the idea at the end, I hope.

Since the beginning of the series, Sansa has been around a variety of women who have different approaches to power, motherhood, marriage, sex, love, etc. It's not chance that she is meeting Randa at the same time that her sexual awakening is happening. Randa would not have made sense in Clash, she was still a child. But, now, Randa is perfectly timed to educate Sansa. They don't need to be BFFs for Sansa to learn from her. We saw with Lysa and Cersei that she had no love for either of them yet she still took quite a bit from both.

I think of Alayne as Sansa's alter ego. It's a secret identity but is still just as much a part of Sansa as Sansa is. I want her to resume her identiy in the open with the Stark name but retain the elements of Alayne that she found courage and strength in. They are all part of Sansa, she just needs to realize it.

Opportunities to marry for love will be more apparent now than at the beginning of the series. We have had years of war that have killed the men and many heirs. In the North, there are the Mormont women who we see ruling in their own right. I've wondered before if one of the reasons they are in the story is to show that it is very possible for women to rule in their own right.

I don't think it has to do with being old fashioned. There is no movement towards modernity in Westeros. No emancipation, socialism or anything of the sort. Willas as far as we can tell from Garlan seems kind and competent, but not unconventional. There is also no reason at all for the Tyrells to trust Sansa, nor involve her in their plans. Although Mrs Garlan Tyrell is not only home with the kids, she's at his side in KL not as a co-player or any sort of political power, but as an ornament. Garlan donned Renly's armour, Garlan speaks to Tyrion at the wedding, not Garlan's wife. She's a pretty face at his side.

However, Olenna and Margaery are plotting together most likely, and there is no reason I can see why they would welcome Sansa. In fact, especially Olenna seems to think Sansa is really daft. Willas likewise has no reason to take into his confidence a random Stark girl. What can he stand to gain? Especially if according to the rest of his family and conventional wisdom is that she's thick as a plank. Logic dictates the Tyrells would be polite and nice, but Sansa is still essentially a pawn if she gets placed in the Tyrell camp. A highborn, probably pampered pawn, but a pawn all the same.

Lyanna - Love both your posts. I'd double like them if I could. Willas and his family have no reason to grant power to Sansa. She has the reputation of being rather dim-witted which would make them even less likely to do so. If she were married to Willas, her duty would be to provide heirs as soon as possible. Garlan and his wife may be in love but it is pretty obvious that they have a very conventional marriage. Sansa is the heir to Winterfell, as fair as they know but that's it. The only thing she would bring to the marriage is a very large dowry. There is no family or army to support her as there is for Margaery. When she had her childlike dream of pleasure barges and stated that she would make Willas love her, it sounded like making the best of the situation. If, for some reason, that is her fate then she would still be making the best of it. All the knowledge and training she got from LF would be for naught.

[Queen of Spades]

If Sansa wants to wield power in her own right, she needs to find another way. Either by marrying someone she can rule completely, or at least mostly (like Sweetrobin) or someone who, like Ned, recognises her political smarts and isn't directly interested in wielding that sort of power himself. Or maybe someone as thick as Mace Tyrell, who doesn't realise his mother is the real schemer. Or she could marry a Dornish, since they seem to value women more, but that seems a bit far fetched as it stands now.

Or someone whose rank is far beneath her like, say... the second son of some very minor Lannister bannerman. :P

Thanks brash! :grouphug: Regarding Arya, I was also thinking of her "hit list" that she would recite each night before she went to sleep. I definitely think her naming the people she wanted revenge on gave her power over them (especially when you consider what happened to most of those people! :o )

Yes, and we should be thankful that she listed Mycah's killer as "the Hound" and not as "Sandor Clegane" !

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding the mentioning of names and not (thanks Lady for an interesting post!) this is a bit of a theme with both Theon (for obvious reasons) and Jaime/Brienne. With Jaime and Brienne they refer to each other as "Wench" and "Kingslayer" for quite a while, but then they gradually start to think of each other by name. Then of course we have the significant moment where Jaime punches Red Ronnet Connington and tells her "Her name is Brienne". It's clear that for Jaime and Brienne, the development of their relationship is linked with how they think of each other and that the name has meaning and possibly power.

I think Sansa's inability to name Sandor means what she feels for him is as of yet not realised, or still remains dormant/hidden and as Brashcandy has pointed out before is something she is not comfortable confronting.

It's interesting to note as well from the compilation above that Sandor on his part seems more comfortable expression a familiarity with Sansa while travelling with Arya. It's clear through his use of "pretty bird" and him trying to assert to Arya several times that Sansa approved of him, what with singing to him and being so nice and courteous (and Arya of course smashing all those hopes with "Did you hit her with an axe too?" :lol: ).

Since the beginning of the series, Sansa has been around a variety of women who have different approaches to power, motherhood, marriage, sex, love, etc. It's not chance that she is meeting Randa at the same time that her sexual awakening is happening. Randa would not have made sense in Clash, she was still a child. But, now, Randa is perfectly timed to educate Sansa. They don't need to be BFFs for Sansa to learn from her. We saw with Lysa and Cersei that she had no love for either of them yet she still took quite a bit from both.

I agree. I think both Randa and Mya are setup as Sansa's teachers and it's by intent that they are not typical "ladies" since Sansa learnt already in Kings Landing from Margaery's crew that being ladylike is just not for her anymore. She found them shallow and immature, while in AFFC she's warming to the extremely outspoken and self proclaimed "wicked" Myranda and she seems fond of the really cynical and independent Mya. Sansa of AGOT had been outraged to see AFFC Sansa/Alayne's company and their topic of conversation, too.

Myranda is also the first really sexually outspoken woman we encounter I think, or at least the only one who aspires to be "wicked" and I doubt this is by chance and could possibly infer that Sansa may shed more and more of her innocent ladylike persona around her. The same goes for Mya Stone who is almost the epitome of female independence south of the Neck. I think a combination of Myranda and Mya will also help make Sansa more "northern". From what we have seen of northern women, i.e. the mormonts and Alys Karstark, they're certainly no weak blushing violets. Lyanna Mormont is ok with telling Stannis to shove off. All the female Mormonts fight and Alys Karstark was at 16 enough to intimidate the new Magnar of Thenn (I loved her "Let him be frightened of me" comment, rock on Alys!) and was mainly concerned with feeding her subjects.

Anyways, back to Myranda, Sansa is now of an age with Daenerys of AGOT, which was when she was married off to Drogo and started getting sexually active. It will be interesting to compare their two storylines since I always felt Dany was much too young to have the sort of experiences she did. At least if we assume the author treats Sansa and Dany somewhat the same, it will definitely mean that Sansa is now clearly within the adult sphere when it comes to sex and interacting with men as a woman, not a child. It seems Myranda may inadvertently help Littlefinger in his quest for Sansa to seduce Harry the Heir by providing the needed knowledge to Sansa.

Sansa has already found strength in her Stark identity, now she needs to learn the ropes of being a fierce northern woman and she's good to go.

Or someone whose rank is far beneath her like, say... the second son of some very minor Lannister bannerman. :P

I guess it depends if he'd be ok with his wife wearing the proverbial "trousers" in their marriage. ;) Considering he's now serving tables, at least he could be useful around the house? :)

[Queen of Spades]

Once Sansa opened that door (the true-Sandor door ;) ), it was hard to close it completely, a little as a Pandora box. He was then confronted with his true self more and more often.

The Sandoor ? :laugh:

From what we have seen of northern women, i.e. the mormonts and Alys Karstark, they're certainly no weak blushing violets. Lyanna Mormont is ok with telling Stannis to shove off. All the female Mormonts fight and Alys Karstark was at 16 enough to intimidate the new Magnar of Thenn (I loved her "Let him be frightened of me" comment, rock on Alys!) and was mainly concerned with feeding her subjects.

Oh, I'd like to see Sansa become a fierce northern woman ! Not like the Mormonts obviously (that's more for Arya), but Alys is awesome too : fleeing from Karhold all the way the Castle Black, alone, and with the winter coming... :bowdown:

I hope the two of them will meet some day (also, Alys would be well-disposed towards the Stark kids, now that Jon helped her :) )

EDIT :

I guess it depends if he'd be ok with his wife wearing the proverbial "trousers" in their marriage. ;) Considering he's now serving tables, at least he could be useful around the house? :)

Well, they could complete each other : she could be the politician and he the battle commander.

[Caro99]

the only good things i can speculate of a marriage between sansa and willas is this: the lannisters all thought sansa a foolish empty-headed girl, and when tyrion married her he didn't take the time to really learn who his wife was. now we see that the tyrells probably think of sansa along the same lines... so if willas and sansa were to marry and willas took the time to know her and come to respect her and all, then it would be a better marriage than the one with tyrion, but not the best for sansa. ths would be a great thing for willas to do, but it wouldn't really increase in a better way sansa's character, so i don't want the tyrell marriage to happen.

love all your thoughts on woman's increasin power in westeros. as some said sansa has been in contact with almost all types of women, so she can pick the best things of all of them or the most convinient and use them to her benefit. i also like that now that sansa is starting to mature sexually she is in the company of women like mya and randa. i'm sure they'll be important for the way sansa views certain things, so i can't wait for the WoW! & it is funny and ironic that the girl whom at the start of the series everyone thought was pretty predictable and the proper lady can possibly end up breaking the rules

[brashcandy]

Lyanna Stark:

Anyways, back to Myranda, Sansa is now of an age with Daenerys of AGOT, which was when she was married off to Drogo and started getting sexually active. It will be interesting to compare their two storylines since I always felt Dany was much too young to have the sort of experiences she did. At least if we assume the author treats Sansa and Dany somewhat the same, it will definitely mean that Sansa is now clearly within the adult sphere when it comes to sex and interacting with men as a woman, not a child. It seems Myranda may inadvertently help Littlefinger in his quest for Sansa to seduce Harry the Heir by providing the needed knowledge to Sansa.

Yeah, based on Sansa's thoughts in the latter half of ASOS where she thinks that it wouldn't have been so bad to be undressed for a man she loved, the sexually adventurous females she's met recently like Kella on LF's island and Randa Royce, and her own dreams/thoughts of the Hound, Martin definitely seems to be setting us up for Sansa becoming sexually active. What I find interesting about all this is how Sansa is learning that sexuality and virginity does not have to define a woman. She believes that her mother gave LF her maidenhead, but knows that she still went on to have a loving and happy relationship with her father. Randa Royce is noble born, but treats sex in a casual manner as something to be enjoyed and pursued. Mya Stone gave up her virginity to a boy she loved and even though her bastardy meant that she couldn't marry him, she might still be able to find happiness with Lothor Brune. Obviously, Sansa experiences of sex so far have been fairly traumatic (think of Tyrion and Marillion), and now there's the twisted and perverted attentions of Littlefinger. But she still seems to be learning that sex doesn't have to be something one fears, and that it can be a healthy expression of love or simply honest desire. We saw Daenerys coming to accept her sexuality and finding pleasure in the act, but is this what will happen with Sansa?