From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[Kittykatknits]

Agreed on that. However, he seems to have recognised it as wrong, since he mention it to Arya in the same sentence as when he says he stood by and let them beat Sansa. Maybe he ended up taking Sansa's side on this issue once he started sympathising with her more. Not that I think he's totally cold and unfeeling, but it seems odd he'd bring Ned's death up, of all things, in that context.

If I remember correctly, he also had to turn Ned's head around for her to see it. I don't think that would have sat well with him at all.

I can't see Sandor having a long romantic or marital relationship with an older Sansa; not unless he's changed a lot on the Quiet Isle, and then he wouldn't necessarily be Sandor anymore. I can see him dying for her :crying: , or becoming her sworn shield but not her lover, or returning eventually to the Quiet Isle.

As sad as it makes me, I do see Sandor dying for her. I don't want that to happen, but GRRM likes to stick the knife in...and give it a twist. :crying:

That said, is someone *seriously* comparing Sandor with a TWILIGHT vampire????? :ack:

<snip>

If there is any character that deserves such ire in the series, hands down that would be Darkstar (for he is of the night). :P

I hate to admit it as this is NOT the ending that I want, but I've had a suspicion for a long time now that he would end up dying for her. I picture short passionate affair, maybe they are open about their feelings and then he dies. I mostly know this because Martin hates me....

Sandor could not be any less of a sparkly vampire. Also, his name is "Dorkstar". Since he is of the night, he's totally a vampire when he's not the lamest bad ass I've ever come across.

She's the one to find him on the rooftop on the eve of the Blackwater battle and then we have the infamous bedroom scene, which might strike some people as extremely creepy :) Anyways, I find LF much more disturbing and definitely much more of a stalker, although he doesn't rely on close physical proximity to ensure his surveillance.

LF really creeps me out. On the rooftop, I got the impression he was there first and was perhaps keeping hidden away from her until she looked like she was going to fall. The way it is written, that a hand suddenly came out and grabbed her. That's the way I read it anyways.

I think it is definitely possible that Sansa and Aegon end up together. There have been numerous hints, especially connected to the Maggy the Frog Prophecy and the Younger Queen.

You're breaking my heart...even though I know there is a good chance of this happening.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm not 100% sold on Sansa being involved in the "Younger Queen" prophecy. GRRM has stated prophecy can be unreliable so maybe it's only there to explain Cersei's extreme brand of crazy. It was introduced rather late, in AFFC, which makes it an even stronger possibility it was introduced as a means to explain Cersei, her overprotectiveness about her kids, and some of her background without really pertaining to anything very much significant apart from Cersei's crazy and her eventual downfall.

After all, as I think we have established, almost every contended would be a "younger, more beautiful queen". Especially since Cersei just got her lovely golden hair cut off completely.

I'm also not sure about the Sansa and Aegon paralells since there are some very striking differences, especially if we assumed that Aegon is fake.

1. Both have false identities, but Sansa's is just that: a false identity, while Aegon's is a false identity within a false identity (Young Griff - Targaryen - Blackfyre)

2. Both have been forced into hiding, but while Sansa is in a nest of vipers, Aegon travels with supportive companions, Jon Connington, Septa Lemore, the Halfmaester

3. Both need to keep up apperances, but if Aegon slips on the Shy Maid, the people there mean him well and already know who he is, so it's no problems. Sansa may be sent to Cersei to have her head lopped off.

4. Regardless of the situation, Sansa keeps her compassion and her courtesey. As soon as Aegon comes out as Aegon Targaryen, he turns wilful and goes against the advice of his surrogate father Jon Connington. and acts brash. For everything he has been taught, Aegon does not have wisdom.

[Kittykatknits]

Speaking of that, why did HBO decide to "burn" the right side of Rory's face ?

I was wondering the same thing. It's not like if it bothers me, but it's kind of a weird decision.

Yeah that struck me as odd too, ladies. It's one of the first things I noticed about the TV series and thought "Hey, they've got the wrong side as being burned". Doesn't bother me, but why switch it? :dunno:

It was a makeup/ comfort thing. When they first put together the scarring costume it was on the other side of his face. But, there was a problem with him sweating so much, I guess because he has hair there or something. So, they moved it to the other side of his face.

ETA: I think the scar was also bigger at one point too.

[Kittykatknits]

I'm not 100% sold on Sansa being involved in the "Younger Queen" prophecy. GRRM has stated prophecy can be unreliable so maybe it's only there to explain Cersei's extreme brand of crazy. It was introduced rather late, in AFFC, which makes it an even stronger possibility it was introduced as a means to explain Cersei, her overprotectiveness about her kids, and some of her background without really pertaining to anything very much significant apart from Cersei's crazy and her eventual downfall.

After all, as I think we have established, almost every contended would be a "younger, more beautiful queen". Especially since Cersei just got her lovely golden hair cut off completely.

I don't think much of this prophecy. When Storm was finished, Martin was supposed to have a five year gap which we all know got dropped. If it had stayed in place, Cersei's crazy would have been slower to develop. Instead, he needed to show it happening in just a few chapters. I really think that the prophecy did not exist at all prior to the start of AFFC; it just helps make her self-destruction look a little more believable. Even LF stated he thought Cersei would last longer than she did. To the extent that it is real, I've thought it was about her own destruction as much as anything. The one who is younger and more beautiful could be almost any of the women in the series really.

As for prophecy, we already have the stallion who failed to mount the world so it makes sense to me that there will be more of this. It would not surprise me at all if there is still debate about Dany's visions in the House of the Undying once the entire series is done

I'm also not sure about the Sansa and Aegon paralells since there are some very striking differences, especially if we assumed that Aegon is fake.

1. Both have false identities, but Sansa's is just that: a false identity, while Aegon's is a false identity within a false identity (Young Griff - Targaryen - Blackfyre)

2. Both have been forced into hiding, but while Sansa is in a nest of vipers, Aegon travels with supportive companions, Jon Connington, Septa Lemore, the Halfmaester

3. Both need to keep up apperances, but if Aegon slips on the Shy Maid, the people there mean him well and already know who he is, so it's no problems. Sansa may be sent to Cersei to have her head lopped off.

4. Regardless of the situation, Sansa keeps her compassion and her courtesey. As soon as Aegon comes out as Aegon Targaryen, he turns wilful and goes against the advice of his surrogate father Jon Connington. and acts brash. For everything he has been taught, Aegon does not have wisdom.

I think he's a fake. Five books in and suddenly there is Aegon come again to bring peace to the realm (or at least after another war), I'm not buying it.

I go back to what Martin said in interviews before. We saw the important characters introduced in the first couple books of the series - Cersei, the Starks, Jaime, Theon, Sandor, Brienne, etc. The other characters have roles to play and Martin fleshes them out to the extent needed. But, none of them have the same story arcs or depth that those introduced in the first two books do. I think fAegon is going to be the same way. Even though Martin subverts tropes, in many ways there are still some elements of a typical fantasy series. It usually starts in a single location (think the village in WoT or the shire in LoTR) then the characters span out on their own adventures. As the series conclusion occurs, the story lines start to merge and the important characters find their way back to each other. I think it's fairly obvious the same thing is happening after Dance. We are seeing events in the North moving again, Rickon on his way home, and characters in locations so that POVs can start to merge.

I just can not get invested, after five books, in a possible fake. Besides, I think he's hot-headed and rash. From the scene with Tyrion, I think he might have a temper too. He may have been trained since birth, but really, what experience at ruling does the guy really have? In some ways, I think he is as naive and inexperienced at Dany. But I could be wrong.

As for Sansa, she's goingto slay her giant (LF) and help to rebuild the Starks. Or, at least that's what I want to happen. I think there is also a good chance she will actually be unmarried at the end of the series. Maybe with a certain loyal sworn shield?

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't think much of this prophecy. When Storm was finished, Martin was supposed to have a five year gap which we all know got dropped. If it had stayed in place, Cersei's crazy would have been slower to develop. Instead, he needed to show it happening in just a few chapters. I really think that the prophecy did not exist at all prior to the start of AFFC; it just helps make her self-destruction look a little more believable. Even LF stated he thought Cersei would last longer than she did. To the extent that it is real, I've thought it was about her own destruction as much as anything. The one who is younger and more beautiful could be almost any of the women in the series really.

Indeed. I'm hoping the onset of winter will help "slow" things down, timewise, since otherwise it will be extremely unbelievable how young the characters are. I'm not sure what the timeline of ADWD ends, but it seems Sansa would be 14 moving on 15 by the end of it (Sansa age, not Alayne age).

I go back to what Martin said in interviews before. We saw the important characters introduced in the first couple books of the series - Cersei, the Starks, Jaime, Theon, Sandor, Brienne, etc. The other characters have roles to play and Martin fleshes them out to the extent needed. But, none of them have the same story arcs or depth that those introduced in the first two books do. I think fAegon is going to be the same way. Even though Martin subverts tropes, in many ways there are still some elements of a typical fantasy series. It usually starts in a single location (think the village in WoT or the shire in LoTR) then the characters span out on their own adventures. As the series conclusion occurs, the story lines start to merge and the important characters find their way back to each other. I think it's fairly obvious the same thing is happening after Dance. We are seeing events in the North moving again, Rickon on his way home, and characters in locations so that POVs can start to merge.

:agree:

I've started considering whether Sansa might not be meant to sort out the BWB mess, since they were sent out by Ned and currently run by her mother, and they're near enough that Sansa may hook up with them. It definitely does not seem likely that she's going to end up spending year after year in the Vale, especially not if LF is offed and/or she decides to leg it. She seems disinclined to "out" herself to anyone due to the regicide charges, even Bronze Yohn Royce, so what better place to hide than among outlaws? That also means she can "collect" the spare POVs and other characters hanging around the Riverlands and maybe help unite Riverrun for the Tullys again.

Further, I was hoping she'd meet up with Arya and that they'd be able to work through their sibling issues and become the Stark sisters for real, but apparently the theory is that Arya may be going to Old Volantis (to Izembaro), which means she'll probably end up tied to the Dany/Tyrion/Victarion storyline.

I just can not get invested, after five books, in a possible fake. Besides, I think he's hot-headed and rash. From the scene with Tyrion, I think he might have a temper too. He may have been trained since birth, but really, what experience at ruling does the guy really have? In some ways, I think he is as naive and inexperienced at Dany. But I could be wrong.

As for Sansa, she's goingto slay her giant (LF) and help to rebuild the Starks. Or, at least that's what I want to happen. I think there is also a good chance she will actually be unmarried at the end of the series. Maybe with a certain loyal sworn shield?

I agree. It seems Varys assumed he will be able to "rule" through Aegon, but like Joffrey, I don't think he'll be that easy to rule through. Aegon does not seem "evil", or anything, he just seems a bit immature, a bit wilful and a bit arrogant. All around not a bad bloke, but definitely not ruler material in a Westeros torn to pieces by war.

Regarding her marital status at the end, I tend to agree with your assessment, that she'd either be unmarried or married to Tyrion and estranged. Interestingly, Ir ead Tyrion's ADWD chapter where he's mentioning the he misses his wife "I msis my wife, the wife I hardly knew", but that line is not linked to Sansa at all, it's linked to Shae, then Tysha. It *could* be Sansa, but I have a hard time Tyrion would miss Sansa, since he finds spending time with her makes him miserable and that the entire thing is a horrible lie. His entire ADWD arc is focused on Tysha, so I can't help but wonder if Tyrion's marriage to Tysha won't have any meaning in the future, either as a means to nullify his marriage to Sansa, or in another way, since he spends so much time obsessing over it.

EDIT: Crackpot: We know Tyrion has failed at finding Tysha, but what if Littlefinger has found her? Or at least found out about the circumstances regarding the marriage. It would also be just like LF to dig out this including the fact that Tywin did not have it anulled and bring it in front of the High Septon. Either way, if LF holds Tyrion's "real" wife, or knows how that panned out, it means he can void Sansa's marriage and move on with his plan. We also know LF knows that Tyrion has been married before, and about what happened, more or less. LF is not one to rest on his laurels either. If anyone could find her, it would be him or Varys.

So, Tysha inside the tapestries???

[Raksha the Demon]

Aegon does not seem like a bad kid, but I think, and hope, that Sansa does better for herself. Aegon seems to be very full of himself; not a totally unusual attitude for a 16-year-old boy, but the humility that Varys spoke of does not appear in Aegon's ADWD. His upending the cyvasse game in a fit of pique because Tyrion outfoxed him is very childish, and definitely unworthy of a boy who believes himself to be the future king of Westeros. Aegon also spoke rather dismissively of "the Pisswater boy", the infant who was murdered in his place. If I were told of a child who was bought for the specific purpose of being killed in my place if danger came, I would speak more respectfully of that dead kid.

I also don't think that Aegon will be on the scene for very long. Making him the king of Westeros and having him survive to continue reigning would not satisfy many readers who have known so many other characters who have a more familiar claim. On the other hand, it could also be a Martin-twist that Aegon will be revealed to the readers as a fraud, but no one will discover it, and he will live out his life as a successful king.

I would only want Sansa to marry Aegon to make her a good and beloved queen; but I'm not sure she'd find long-term happiness with him; I think he'd tire of her and want younger and more flashy bed-warmers eventually. But then again, maybe Aegon would at least respect and value her. Still, I'd rather see Sansa end up as Mrs. Willas Tyrell, unless Willas turns out to be a drooling idiot or sinister schemer.

[brashcandy]

EDIT: Crackpot: We know Tyrion has failed at finding Tysha, but what if Littlefinger has found her? Or at least found out about the circumstances regarding the marriage. It would also be just like LF to dig out this including the fact that Tywin did not have it anulled and bring it in front of the High Septon. Either way, if LF holds Tyrion's "real" wife, or knows how that panned out, it means he can void Sansa's marriage and move on with his plan. We also know LF knows that Tyrion has been married before, and about what happened, more or less. LF is not one to rest on his laurels either. If anyone could find her, it would be him or Varys.

Interesting crackpot, Lyanna. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that LF knows about Tysha's whereabouts at all, given that he seems uniquely informed about what took place during the marriage, as well as we've already seen him offering to take care of "unpleasant" business to do with Lannisters and women they want to get rid of.

[Lyanna Stark]

Interesting crackpot, Lyanna. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that LF knows about Tysha's whereabouts at all, given that he seems uniquely informed about what took place during the marriage, as well as we've already seen him offering to take care of "unpleasant" business to do with Lannisters and women they want to get rid of.

Yes, I think it's something worth considering. Throughout, LF does not seem particularly bothered by Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, and he certainly does not like Tyrion and would probably enjoy bringing Tyrion low or hurting him, even by proxy.

And the answer to "Where do whores go?" is often "To Littlefinger's brothels" so if anyone knew where Tysha went, it would make sense it would be LF.

Now he just needs to bring Tyrion's "real" wife and his "fake" wife together, pack them off to the High Septon....and profit!!

What better way to bring Tysha to the secure location of the Vale, but alonside Cersei's tapestries? I bet she would just *love* being complicit in smuggling Tyrion's "real wife" out of Kings Landing. :P

[brashcandy]

Can't you just see Tyrion having a bone crushing facepalm moment when he realises just how obvious the answer was to his question all along? :)

[Queen of Winter]

And the answer to "Where do whores go?" is often "To Littlefinger's brothels" so if anyone knew where Tysha went, it would make sense it would be LF.

Dammit Lyanna, you beat me to it! :P

Nice theory! :thumbsup:

[the Scorpion Knight]

wasn't the tysha incident before LF rise of enterprises ?

[Lyanna Stark]

wasn't the tysha incident before LF rise of enterprises ?

Possibly, but LF aquired lots of brothels at some point, and probably rather quickly. The Tyrion - Tysha incident happened when Tyrion was 13, and LF is the same age as Jaime. Jaime is at least 8 years older than Tyrion (The Wiki has Jaime listed as born in 266 AL and Tyrion in 274 AL), which makes LF 21 at this time and should have taken place around 287 AL. Robert's Rebellion, at which point Lysa was married to Jon Arryn took place 282-283. It seems likely that LF got the position in Gulltown not much later and that he started making money and buying up brothels there and in Kings Landing. It gives LF 4 years to build up his brothel emporium before "hiring" Tysha so not totally implausible.

Given LF's notorious interest in digging up shit on people, it would not surprise me if he would be interested in keeping Tysha around as a possible thumbscrew for the Lannisters, to be brought forward when it suited him.

[Kittykatknits]

Indeed. I'm hoping the onset of winter will help "slow" things down, timewise, since otherwise it will be extremely unbelievable how young the characters are. I'm not sure what the timeline of ADWD ends, but it seems Sansa would be 14 moving on 15 by the end of it (Sansa age, not Alayne age).

I was researching timelines a couple weeks ago. She is 14. I think 14 and 3 or 4 months but am not quite certain. She may be a little bit older than but I didn't have enough information to know for sure. I think winter will slow things done as well. I would not be surprised if there was another year or two left in the series.

I've started considering whether Sansa might not be meant to sort out the BWB mess, since they were sent out by Ned and currently run by her mother, and they're near enough that Sansa may hook up with them. It definitely does not seem likely that she's going to end up spending year after year in the Vale, especially not if LF is offed and/or she decides to leg it. She seems disinclined to "out" herself to anyone due to the regicide charges, even Bronze Yohn Royce, so what better place to hide than among outlaws? That also means she can "collect" the spare POVs and other characters hanging around the Riverlands and maybe help unite Riverrun for the Tullys again.

Further, I was hoping she'd meet up with Arya and that they'd be able to work through their sibling issues and become the Stark sisters for real, but apparently the theory is that Arya may be going to Old Volantis (to Izembaro), which means she'll probably end up tied to the Dany/Tyrion/Victarion storyline.

I agree. It seems Varys assumed he will be able to "rule" through Aegon, but like Joffrey, I don't think he'll be that easy to rule through. Aegon does not seem "evil", or anything, he just seems a bit immature, a bit wilful and a bit arrogant. All around not a bad bloke, but definitely not ruler material in a Westeros torn to pieces by war.

Regarding her marital status at the end, I tend to agree with your assessment, that she'd either be unmarried or married to Tyrion and estranged. Interestingly, Ir ead Tyrion's ADWD chapter where he's mentioning the he misses his wife "I msis my wife, the wife I hardly knew", but that line is not linked to Sansa at all, it's linked to Shae, then Tysha. It *could* be Sansa, but I have a hard time Tyrion would miss Sansa, since he finds spending time with her makes him miserable and that the entire thing is a horrible lie. His entire ADWD arc is focused on Tysha, so I can't help but wonder if Tyrion's marriage to Tysha won't have any meaning in the future, either as a means to nullify his marriage to Sansa, or in another way, since he spends so much time obsessing over it.

I like the BWB theory. I don't think Sansa will out herself to anyone in the Vale. If she did, it's when she first arrived. She's to far enmeshed in the Alayne persona and even less inclined to trust others. Her presence wth the BWB would wrap up several storylines. Lady Stoneheart is here for a reason and I don't see her final death happening until she sees one of her children again. I would love to see her help take back Riverrun.

I think Arya is coming back to Westeros via another method that was hinted at it the Theon chapter for WoW. Not sure how to do spoiler tags.

Tyrion barely even thinks about Sansa. She only thinks of him in passing when it comes to his kindness. Their marriage is over. Whether they are legally wed at the end or not, this is proof more than anything, at least to me, that their marriage was a plot device and a way to further explore the characters.

Aegon does not seem like a bad kid, but I think, and hope, that Sansa does better for herself. Aegon seems to be very full of himself; not a totally unusual attitude for a 16-year-old boy, but the humility that Varys spoke of does not appear in Aegon's ADWD. His upending the cyvasse game in a fit of pique because Tyrion outfoxed him is very childish, and definitely unworthy of a boy who believes himself to be the future king of Westeros. Aegon also spoke rather dismissively of "the Pisswater boy", the infant who was murdered in his place. If I were told of a child who was bought for the specific purpose of being killed in my place if danger came, I would speak more respectfully of that dead kid.

I also don't think that Aegon will be on the scene for very long. Making him the king of Westeros and having him survive to continue reigning would not satisfy many readers who have known so many other characters who have a more familiar claim. On the other hand, it could also be a Martin-twist that Aegon will be revealed to the readers as a fraud, but no one will discover it, and he will live out his life as a successful king.

I would only want Sansa to marry Aegon to make her a good and beloved queen; but I'm not sure she'd find long-term happiness with him; I think he'd tire of her and want younger and more flashy bed-warmers eventually. But then again, maybe Aegon would at least respect and value her. Still, I'd rather see Sansa end up as Mrs. Willas Tyrell, unless Willas turns out to be a drooling idiot or sinister schemer.

I don't think she would find long-term happiness with him for the reasons that you state. Also, it's obvious just how much Sansa is her father's daughter. Ned, the guy who so obviously did not belong in the South. I think Sansa is just as much a child of the North as her father is. It's where she belongs. But, maybe bittersweet means she will never return home again....

I still think Aegon is temporary and he is one of my least favorite plotlines in the story. Considering there is also the Ironborn, that's saying a lot.

[voodooqueen126]

So I have been reading about politness.

http://en.wikipedia....liteness_theory

and

http://en.wikipedia....i/Gricean_maxim

since this is a major part of Sansa's character.

In many ways Sansa is an excellent example of what is called negative politeness

• Negative politeness: Making a request less infringing, such as "If you don't mind..." or "If it isn't too much trouble..."; respects a person's right to act freely. In other words, deference. There is a greater use of indirect speech acts.
  

Which is not at all bad, since she is under constant threat.

Yet in her interactions with Sandor she often verges on positive politeness.

• Positive politeness: Seeks to establish a positive relationship between parties; respects a person's need to be liked and understood. Direct speech acts, swearing and flouting Grice's maxims can be considered aspects of positive politeness because:
  
  • they show an awareness that the relationship is strong enough to cope with what would normally be considered impolite (in the popular understanding of the term);
    
  • they articulate an awareness of the other person's values, which fulfills the person's desire to be accepted.
    

It is also worth noting that when Sansa interacts with Tyrion and Petyr, she appears polite (negative polite to Tyrion, the appearance of positive politeness to Petyr) she is actually behaving like a Malagasy:

Grice’s theory is often disputed by arguing that cooperative conversation, as with most social behavior, is culturally determined, and therefore the Gricean Maxims and the Cooperative Principle cannot be universally applied due to intercultural differences. Keenan claims that the Malagasy, for example, follow a completely opposite Cooperative Principle in order to achieve conversational cooperation. In their culture, speakers are reluctant to share information and flout the Maxim of Quantity by evading direct questions and replying on incomplete answers because of the risk of losing face by committing oneself to the truth of the information, as well as the fact that having information is a form of prestige.^[1] However, Harnish points out^[2] that Grice only claims his maxims hold in conversations where his Cooperative Principle is in effect. The Malagasy speakers choose not to be cooperative, valuing the prestige of information ownership more highly. (It could also be said in this case that this is a less cooperative communication system, since less information is shared)

though yet again, this is not motivated by the a value on the prestige of information, but rather survival: giving Tyrion the delusion that Sansa is obedient, and giving Petyr the delusion that Sansa is agrees with him.

[Maroucia]

I wonder what Tysha would say to Tyrion if they ever meet again. It would be more then likely that she hates him and dreams of a way to avenge herself, but who knows, she may hate Tywin instead since Tyrion was almost a child when this all happened and couldn’t do much to stop his father…

I would hope that she has been able to turn the page and start fresh. As much as Lyanna’s theory is interesting and probable, I would prefer if Tysha has not become a prostitute, and it would be even worse if she is working for Littlefinger and kept as a secret to be used against Tyrion in the future…

Poor girl, gang raped at 13, then having to prostitute herself to survive and kept hidden by Littlefinger to be used as a tool to fulfill his ambitions… :stillsick: That would not be very far from being a slave!

[Queen of Spades]

Hey, Queen of spades, I think I saw a comment from you on La garde de nuit!

Reine de piques?

Haha! That's funny! I didn't know you spoke French.

Je ne suis donc pas la seule francophone obsédée par SanSan à fréquenter le forum! Cool!

It's Dame de Piques, actually ;)

It was a makeup/ comfort thing. When they first put together the scarring costume it was on the other side of his face. But, there was a problem with him sweating so much, I guess because he has hair there or something. So, they moved it to the other side of his face.

Unsymmetrical sweating ? :shocked:

I wonder what Tysha would say to Tyrion if they ever meet again. It would be more then likely that she hates him and dreams of a way to avenge herself, but who knows, she may hate Tywin instead since Tyrion was almost a child when this all happened and couldn’t do much to stop his father…

He did rape her in the end, though... I really hope she'll never meet him again, poor girl :(

[Lyanna Stark]

I was researching timelines a couple weeks ago. She is 14. I think 14 and 3 or 4 months but am not quite certain. She may be a little bit older than but I didn't have enough information to know for sure. I think winter will slow things done as well. I would not be surprised if there was another year or two left in the series.

I'd say 1-2 years at the very least if things slow down a lot (plus I am convinced it will take more than two books to wrap up this beast). I just reread the Asha chapter up at Winterfell and the march alone was some 39 days and that's not counting just sitting in the snow. So, snow and winter definitely slow things down. From what we can tell at the end of AFFC, winter has come even to the Riverlands and in Sansa's POV it's snow everywhere, even at the Gates of the Moon. It will severely limit travel.

I like the BWB theory. I don't think Sansa will out herself to anyone in the Vale. If she did, it's when she first arrived. She's to far enmeshed in the Alayne persona and even less inclined to trust others. Her presence wth the BWB would wrap up several storylines. Lady Stoneheart is here for a reason and I don't see her final death happening until she sees one of her children again. I would love to see her help take back Riverrun.

Yes, I agree that the Riverlands' POVs need wrapping up, and Sansa is a little bit isolated in the Vale and yes, Stoneheart definitely needs wrapping up. For quite a while I thought it would be Arya since she was so close to the Red Wedding, but like you do that it's the hint in Theon's TWOW chapter we should be looking at. (Spoiler tags are done like quote tags btw, just type SPOILER and /SPOILER and enclose with tags and voila :) )

If we assume Arya will come back with Justin Massey, it seems she will end up at Winterfell, probably offing Ramsay and his pack, which I guess would be neat since he took "fake Arya" for his wife. That still leaves UnCat in the Riverlands though, and as you said, I just don't think poor UnCat will get any rest until she has seen at least one of her children is ok. It also makes sense for it to be Sansa since she has been so strongly linked to Brienne and Sandor, who are both hanging around in the Riverlands. And of course Jaime's newfangled quest to retake his honour.

Assuming that either Brienne or Jaime survives their ordeal with UnCat, one of them will *have* to continue in their quest to find Sansa.

In light of the old TWOW title being "A Time for Wolves" it seems certain that the Starks will make a come back, and probably not only in the north. Someone will have to sort out the Riverlands and deal with the Freys once and for all. Eventually when shit hits the fan for real, we also need a POV in Kings Landing, which could possibly be Arianne or Jon Connington, but also one of the Riverlands/Vale crew.

Tyrion barely even thinks about Sansa. She only thinks of him in passing when it comes to his kindness. Their marriage is over. Whether they are legally wed at the end or not, this is proof more than anything, at least to me, that their marriage was a plot device and a way to further explore the characters.

I agree completely. It provided Sansa with plot armour and Tyrion with more reason to angst. Tyrion's big hangup is about the Tysha marriage and I can't imagine it not being resolved by the end of the series. After ASOS and ADWD it's almost Chekov's Smoking Marriage.

I don't think she would find long-term happiness with him for the reasons that you state. Also, it's obvious just how much Sansa is her father's daughter. Ned, the guy who so obviously did not belong in the South. I think Sansa is just as much a child of the North as her father is. It's where she belongs. But, maybe bittersweet means she will never return home again....

Yep, I agree on this too. :) If Robb's will can finally set Sansa "loose" from the list of heirs, it would also open up a role for her as "Ambassador" to the south, of sorts. Although to be fair, ANY ending will be bittersweet for the Starks since they've lost so much. Considering what Arya, Sansa and Rickon have been through (I believe Bran will remain a tree) I don't think they'll ever see Winterfell the same again. It's also been sacked and burnt, with most people they knew dead. Even if they can rebuild it and create a new life there, the old life they knew has been violated and brutalised; it's gone forever and will never come back.

I still think Aegon is temporary and he is one of my least favorite plotlines in the story. Considering there is also the Ironborn, that's saying a lot.

Yep, true, although I'd say the Ironborn (minus Asha) are racing Quentyn Martell and Arya's Faceless Men chapters to the bottom of ADWD. :P I actually rather liked the Tyrion/Jon Connington chapters, but then I am a sucker for Rhaegar Targaryen (SHOCKER I KNOW RIGHT ;) )

[Kittykatknits]

I wonder what Tysha would say to Tyrion if they ever meet again. It would be more then likely that she hates him and dreams of a way to avenge herself, but who knows, she may hate Tywin instead since Tyrion was almost a child when this all happened and couldn’t do much to stop his father…

He did rape her in the end, though... I really hope she'll never meet him again, poor girl :(

I agree completely. It provided Sansa with plot armour and Tyrion with more reason to angst. Tyrion's big hangup is about the Tysha marriage and I can't imagine it not being resolved by the end of the series. After ASOS and ADWD it's almost Chekov's Smoking Marriag

In another thread, Woman of War described Tysha as a jammed Chekov's Gun that might never go off. It's something that he is going to have to live with, there may not be a chance to confront her and gain some sort of "closure". We saw Tyrion at his lowest point (at least I hope so), so he needs to rebuild going forward. I liken it to Sandor and his brother in some ways. His past has had a huge impact but killing his brother may not be the best way to move forward.

Yep, true, although I'd say the Ironborn (minus Asha) are racing Quentyn Martell and Arya's Faceless Men chapters to the bottom of ADWD. :P I actually rather liked the Tyrion/Jon Connington chapters, but then I am a sucker for Rhaegar Targaryen (SHOCKER I KNOW RIGHT ;) )

You had me all throughout this entire post, all the way until this very last sentence. :)

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I am voting Sandor does NOT die saving Sansa.....why? Because it is too predictable and "expected".

No other reason.

It's just too predictable.

Same with Jaime.....granted with him, I'd rather see Jaime actually decide to be a father to his kids and take care of them in Casterley Rock and set right all the things that Tywin and Cersei did wrong in the Lannister name. I'd also like to see him do it with Tyrion's help. But....that is my wish.

If I were Tysha...I wouldn't want anything to do with Tyrion.

[Megara]

I am voting Sandor does NOT die saving Sansa.....why? Because it is too predictable and "expected".

No other reason.

It's just too predictable.

"A hound will die for you, but never lie to you" <--- that quote could very well foreshadow Sandor's death at some point =( I really hope not, though...