From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[kwvapor]

but they are closer than people like and Lf behavior invited the war to the vale

Which behavior invites war and which faction(s) are likely to come to the Vale?

[Aslerys]

first aegon doesn't care about that (he isisted on the saving of tyrion after he told aegon who he is)

I think they'll meet sooner( why do i think LF actions invited the war to the vale) and sansa will be having a minor freakout meeting aegon

(the lad seems to develop a talent for seeing through people he saw right that harry strick would rather wait for hell to freeze over than fight and JonC didn't tell him that. and he is used to dyed hair)

Good point! (I forgot that they could bond over dyed hair :laugh: )

I'm going to be honest, Anything Taragaryen isn't terribly interesting to me (blashphemy I know) but is it definite he's a fake. Isn't the dragon supposed to have 3 heads or some such. Maybe Aegon will be in a position of power when all is said and done.

I think it could be interesting if Sansa is paired with someone where SHE is the cynical one in the relationship and the guy is the more romantic. Aegon's been training and fighting (but hasn't had to contend with the callousness that only the nobility can display) for years according to Connington but Sansa has been a prisoner of war since the end of GoT (she's experienced physical violence but not murder as of yet).

It would also continue GRRM's continued habit of having Sansa forge a relationship with just about EVERY powerful man in Westeros by actions, name or deed. Though if Aegon is a fake I wouldn't want Sansa involved because she really does have enough problems.

Sansa really is a character that can play well off just about anybody.

I would like to see Sansa being the cynical one in a relationship, excepet with Sandor or someone sweet like Pod, that's why I used Aegon as an exemple he can bring a lot of problems to her but he is also one of the fastest ways for her to become a queen.

I actually have this crackpot theory where Dany and Aegon reach some kind of agreement and his kid with Sansa (I know it's weird but keep in mind that is just a hypothetical thing) will be the heir then Dany and Aegon die fighting the Others or something Sansa will end up as queen regent with enough power to not be forced to marry someone she doesn't like. This isn't my ideal ending (that would be with Sandor) but I agree that she could end up with anyone or no one ;)

It is indeed a fine line, isn't it?

I admit that I have no idea who she will end up with at this point.....and honestly, what matters to me most is that she keeps her identity/integrity in whatever situation she ends up in.....

Sort of like.....Jane Eyre. ;)

Yes I really hope that no matter what she will end up doing she would do it for the greater good and could keep her integrity at least deep down.

Btw I really need to read Jane Eyre I guess the Tv series is not good enough :P

P.s - Sorry for any mistake english isn't my first language and I think I wrote too much :D

[the Scorpion Knight]

Which behavior invites war and which faction(s) are likely to come to the Vale?

go from storm's end(assuming he takes it) to sharppoint, driftmark, dragonstone, cross cracklawpoint and then take gulltown I' talking of Aegon JonC and the GC

LF with lack of leadership is giving the lords declarant good reason to join (a chance to get rid of LF) them

and to answer why should aegon go there and not to KL. simply it is a message to lannisters: the war is far from over

[Kittykatknits]

Do you think that if Sansa manages to run away from the Vale she could ask Aegon for help?

Assuming that the situation in the North will not be solve yet it could be like " the enemies of my enemies are my friends" kind of thing.

Although I'm not sure if Aegon would help or if she would actually consider him a possible ally...

Martin said in interviews last year when Dance came out that he finished the book with characters in positions for POVs to come together. The series started with everyone together at WF then leaving to go on their own journies (we can ignore Dany in this scenario). Through the next several books, we saw each of them grow further apart from other POVS. But, at the end of Dance, we have several characters in the same physical location to start merging storylines. In the North, there is Jon, Stannis, Asha, Theon, etc. In Essos, we have Dany, Tyrion, and Victarion. If you look at a map, we also have four characters relatively close - Jaime, Brienne, Sandor, and Sansa. Aegon is all the way in the Stormlands with Jon C. and Arriane going through a very different story line. I don't see him moving over to the Vale or her to the Stormlands anytime soon.

Also, I think Aegon is a fake, and I don't want to see Sansa married to a fake Targ.

[Valkyrja]

Martin said in interviews last year when Dance came out that he finished the book with characters in positions for POVs to come together. The series started with everyone together at WF then leaving to go on their own journies (we can ignore Dany in this scenario). Through the next several books, we saw each of them grow further apart from other POVS. But, at the end of Dance, we have several characters in the same physical location to start merging storylines. In the North, there is Jon, Stannis, Asha, Theon, etc. In Essos, we have Dany, Tyrion, and Victarion. If you look at a map, we also have four characters relatively close - Jaime, Brienne, Sandor, and Sansa. Aegon is all the way in the Stormlands with Jon C. and Arriane going through a very different story line. I don't see him moving over to the Vale or her to the Stormlands anytime soon.

Also, I think Aegon is a fake, and I don't want to see Sansa married to a fake Targ.

Agreed.

And also, in the previous threads, I think it was observed that there is possibly some foreshadowing regarding Jaime, Brienne, and possibly Sandor reflecting Sansa's favourite knights in the stories (the Mirrorshield, the Dragonknight, and....one more, it is late and I am forgetting...shame on me!) All just speculation of course, but it makes me think that even Sansa can only have *so* many characters featured in her chapters and story arc! :P

[kwvapor]

go from storm's end(assuming he takes it) to sharppoint, driftmark, dragonstone, cross cracklawpoint and then take gulltown I' talking of Aegon JonC and the GC

LF with lack of leadership is giving the lords declarant good reason to join (a chance to get rid of LF) them

and to answer why should aegon go there and not to KL. simply it is a message to lannisters: the war is far from over

OK, I see that it's possible for your senario of conquest to happen since, the Tyrell's army is sitting outside KL.

Martin said in interviews last year when Dance came out that he finished the book with characters in positions for POVs to come together. The series started with everyone together at WF then leaving to go on their own journies (we can ignore Dany in this scenario). Through the next several books, we saw each of them grow further apart from other POVS. But, at the end of Dance, we have several characters in the same physical location to start merging storylines. In the North, there is Jon, Stannis, Asha, Theon, etc. In Essos, we have Dany, Tyrion, and Victarion. If you look at a map, we also have four characters relatively close - Jaime, Brienne, Sandor, and Sansa. Aegon is all the way in the Stormlands with Jon C. and Arriane going through a very different story line. I don't see him moving over to the Vale or her to the Stormlands anytime soon.

Also, I think Aegon is a fake, and I don't want to see Sansa married to a fake Targ.

I don't think Aegon being fake or real matters at this point. The power and forces behind Aegon is real, him and the GC have a plan and are really marching and conquering. Compare that to what people say about Dany having no plan, Stannis is at the wall concerned with the north and realm. Harry the Heir isn't going to claim the throne, since LF is for the current regime. Sansa may become the young girl in Cersei's prophecy.

Agreed.

And also, in the previous threads, I think it was observed that there is possibly some foreshadowing regarding Jaime, Brienne, and possibly Sandor reflecting Sansa's favourite knights in the stories (the Mirrorshield, the Dragonknight, and....one more, it is late and I am forgetting...shame on me!) All just speculation of course, but it makes me think that even Sansa can only have *so* many characters featured in her chapters and story arc! :P

I agree, they can meetup--but what happens when everyone converges. If the Eyrie is attacked and the Vale is not available, will LF retreat to a safer place? Where would that be? I only see KL as his other option since he has titles and lands but no army and knights. And Sansa will need her knights to take her away because she won't go to KL.

In that mess, Sansa can meetup with all the above characters. She might have a meeting with Aegon too--some say Aegon will marry the princess of Dorne but I don't see a match there.

Anyway-just random thoughts really, building on what Scorpion wrote. :smoking:

[Valkyrja]

I agree it doesn't matter whether Aegon is fake or not in terms of the power he wields......I just haven't quite warmed up to the fellow yet, either way....

[kwvapor]

I agree it doesn't matter whether Aegon is fake or not in terms of the power he wields......I just haven't quite warmed up to the fellow yet, either way....

Yeah, I see a lot of hate for him (Aegon). Recall how Sansa wants that perfect prince? Well, she looked everywhere and didn't find one but Aegon might be it. Varys and Jon Con and his guardians have been very protective of him and educating him every day on the things needed to rule/be King.

What if, Martin, gives Sansa this "Prince." He seems very mature, look at how he learned from Tyrion. (He didn't like it but he got the message and acted upon it) I think he has no bastards or lovers, all he is thinking about is conquest. We kind of touched on Sansa and Aegon both having an uncanny ability to read people.

A reversal of her song.

I don't think it'll end happily ever after but it will position her to be the young queen that takes everything from Cersei. Pawn to player---

[Valkyrja]

I don't hate Aegon, I barely know him. ;) I'm just not overly keen on him at the moment. Can you really blame me for not straightaway adoring a character that came in from stage left seemingly out of nowhere?

But my feelings might change. :)

Though, at the moment I have actually been hoping that Sansa doesn't marry a 'perfect prince' type.....but whatever.

I am personally wary of her being in a position of power that depends highly on the success or failure of the spouse. If Sansa rises to power, I'd rather it be less contingent on how well her husband's conquest goes..... just makes me uneasy.

[Caro99]

Count me on the Jane Eyre lovers list!

*Maroucia, I also think Timothy Dalton was a very sexy Rochester! ;)

*Raspie, you mentioned how Mary Queen of Scots & David Rizzio reminded you in a way of Lysa & Marmillion. I can see the parallel as well, though if we take into account Vanessa Redgrave’s movie version, then timothy Dalton would be more like LF here instead of Sandor/Rochester…. :wacko:

This comes close to the Virgin Queen theory. I’ve mentioned before that my best friend thinks that is Sansa’s fate, which I do not agree on and do not like. <_< He defends his view saying that since she has almost lost her virginity a number of times, that George is in a way protecting it cause he wants her to be a sort of Elizabeth-Westeros version. But I think that if George is protecting her virtue it is cause she is meant to, when the right time comes, give it to a man of her choosing. Needless to say, I think this is sandor. ^_^

*Megara, interesting thought about GRRM making a sort of 19^th century romantic gothic tale. But I hope he combines it with the beauty and the best tale so she ends up with Sandor.

*Brash, wonderful post about how Sansa and Sandor managed to get in a way under each other’s skins during the BoBW, as well as seeing each other at their most vulnerable moments.

*Valkyrja, maybe you were missing Florian the Fool?

*Lyanna I totally agree with your post! When you think of these books romance isn’t the first thing to come into your head but there are times when the romance is just so subtly written that it is way better than the typical girl meets boy - girl and boy marry romance Hollywood likes. It wasn’t until I was in the latter half of Clash that I started to realize something was up with San/San, and then I had to go to the internet to confirm it. But I hope Stranger is never gelded! & I also don’t think we’ll see Sandor as a new Lancel.

Now, about the age difference between the hound and his little bird: I don’t mind is as long as (hopefully when they meet again) they will both have matured emotionally and mentally, and sansa physically.

& about Aegon- I don’t want Sansa to end up with Aegon either! Whether he is a true targ or not, I don’t like that ending so much. Of course, he is preferable to LF- but then, every other suitor would be preferable to LF. But I guess I am just too huge a San/san fan cause I can’t see Sansa (so far in the story) with aegon or harry or SR or Willas or Pod or Tyrion or LF. I wouldn’t mind it if they fall for her but if she just used them as means to an end, she would be a mini-Cersei, & I really don’t see her ending up as a heartless woman who uses different men regarding to her whims. Willas and Pod wouldn’t be bad at all, or even Trystane Martell, but in my mind I can’t see her falling for them- loving them yes if they were to marry, but not falling in love with them- if she and Sandor meet again. I am really anticipating that reunion (along with all of you) cause I think that it would be a sort of new turning point in their lives the way in the long-run the BoBW was. But if this encounter never happens sansa would eventually open her horizons to other men.

Anyways, I was wondering the other day if Sansa will end up with any of the “suitors” George or the fans have linked her with. I hope he won’t give us the sort of thing that J.K. Rowling did with Draco Malfoy in the HP epilogue where we don’t really know who the woman he married was. I want to know what kind of a man sansa would choose, not just read about it in the last chapter. So I guess what I am trying to ask is… will sansa end up with someone who has already been introduced or named in the books?

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I am of the minority in that I actually kinda liked Aegon and I hope he is the real deal....and even if he is fake, I don't care. He is young and still a bit brash due to youth but so far seems quite adept and has his mind/heart in the right place. He doesn't come across as a bad kid at all to me. Has he had less than perfect moments? Yes. So has every other character in the book. It makes him human.

Do I want him for Sansa? No...but it has nothing to do with how I view him but due to my prejudice in hoping Sandor steps up to the plate and offers the man she deserves to her. I am hoping he is becoming that man.

Why?

I really can't give you a concrete answer other than they seem to have some funky hot chemistry. He is the opposite of her and what she "thinks" she wants and yet, at the same time, he is exactly what she wants. Yes, he is crude, uncouth, screwed up, etc etc etc...but his action have been some of the more honorable. Well, definitely when compared to the other knights in the books! I love Jaime but even Sandor has more morals than Jaime does.

Im hoping Brienne and Jaime find Sansa and bring her to the Quiet Isle and she finds Sandor.

She chooses to stay with Sandor and is "put on ice" until multiple factors are worked out and she is in a position to reclaim her name and status. By that time, I do hope her and Sandor have found love...and I am okay if it is done offscreen and we learn of it after the fact.

[kwvapor]

I hope Sansa can find what she is seeking. If that's Sandor, Tyrion, Harry, LF (ew), or Aegon. I just hope she can get away from LF. I guess 95% of readers want LF to stay away. Hopefully Martin agrees with us. :bang:

Westeros is at war and that is the real enemy that has/will deprive Sansa of a happy teenage life. It has forced her to grow up quicker than she should and she'll be faced with crossroads where the choices are bad and worse.

[PureGold]

I hope Sansa can find what she is seeking. If that's Sandor, Tyrion, Harry, LF (ew), or Aegon. I just hope she can get away from LF. I guess 95% of readers want LF to stay away. Hopefully Martin agrees with us. :bang:

I'm so hesitant to say this and I'm hoping in this thread my utter love for Sansa will protect me from any ire my statement might inspire BUT I've never really been onboard with Sandor/Sansa. He is so brusque and in a way it's good because it has generated some really great interactions between the 2 characters and I even agree that there is a certain chemistry between Sandor and Sansa.

I wouldn't HATE it. But I haven't really come around to it. Someone let me know if I should see myself out. :dunno:

The reason I am kind of pulling for an Sansa with the likes of Aegon, Trystane or someone of the like is because of the White Walkers. The others are going to makes sure there are some dark days in Westeros and those who don't have a LOT of protection are going to be in trouble.

The White Walkers are like a sword hanging over the heads of all the characters. But Sansa also has LittleFinger (and I do think he's keeping Sansa in the dark about some things, I don't think she know's everything he's up to) and his changing whims. Cersei hoping to find her. That Hedge Knight skulking around the Vale and he's managed to weasel his way into Petyr's presence. So he's clearly a smooth operator since LF doesn't seem to know who he is.

Although I am beginning to wonder how much longer Sansa will remain in the Vale. GRRM said that the reason Sansa's chapter was not included in ADWD was because it would be starting a whole new storyline. Maybe she does get taken from the Vale by the Hedge Knight. And if that's the case there is no end to where she could be headed or who she could end up meeting. Can TWOW be released tomorrow please? :laugh:

[Menos Grande]

Sansa is in a moral pickle yes... and yet she has no choice, to her survive she must cling to Littlefinger's actions may they be whatever he wants... someone mentioned tempered Robin's medicine... yet If she hadnt they would be stuck at that tower for all winter whithout food, they would surely die.

As to kill Robin's she could go either way.. help littlefinger and asure her survival or jarphody her only aliance to save Robin.

I think she will do some things that are "evil" but because she is between a tough spot and a hard place.. is just like Arya Killing her way to Bravos.

Eventualy I think she will free herself from littlefinger, in this moment she will have to Kill him (maybe to save Robin), this will be evil? Yes and no... the morale at Westeros is somewhat diferent from ours, specialy in the north! Remember that the old gods do not condem murder as "a person has its right of revange" that Cook that killed a prince, made him a pie and feed it to his father was punished by breaking the "Guest sanctuary" not for murdering a kid.

[brashcandy]

And also, in the previous threads, I think it was observed that there is possibly some foreshadowing regarding Jaime, Brienne, and possibly Sandor reflecting Sansa's favourite knights in the stories (the Mirrorshield, the Dragonknight, and....one more, it is late and I am forgetting...shame on me!) All just speculation of course, but it makes me think that even Sansa can only have *so* many characters featured in her chapters and story arc! :P

Yup :) Jaime as the Dragonknight, Sandor as Serwyn of the Mirrorshield, and Brienne being paralleled with Symeon Star-Eyes (the whole bit about the sapphires for eyes).

I'm so hesitant to say this and I'm hoping in this thread my utter love for Sansa will protect me from any ire my statement might inspire BUT I've never really been onboard with Sandor/Sansa. He is so brusque and in a way it's good because it has generated some really great interactions between the 2 characters and I even agree that there is a certain chemistry between Sandor and Sansa.

I wouldn't HATE it. But I haven't really come around to it. Someone let me know if I should see myself out. :dunno:

Nope, no need to see yourself out ;) This is a space for discussing and exploring the possibility of Sansa having relationships with many different people, but of course her bond with Sandor is very compelling for a number of reasons.

[adreamer]

I can't see Sansa marrying Aegon. What can possibly he gain from her. At that point Aegon needs allies and i don't think Sansa can provide such. It's unlikely IMO for the Vale to declare for Aegon, since in the last war they fought against the Targariens. Also I don't see why Aegon would go to the Vale at all. He is at Storm's end now, as I recall (or somewhere close) and is much more logical for him to go directly for Kings Landing. If he menages to convince Arianne that he is the real Aegon, he'll have Dorn behind him, without the need to marry Arianne.

The North is pretty much cut from the rest of Westeros with the winter, so even if they decide to go for Aegon (which is highly unlikely), I can't see how they can help. I think in one of JonC POV there was something about going to the wall and fighting Stanis or something (i don't recall exactly, but I can't check right now) but he reflects that the north is to far away and not much to gain from that.

So I don't know who Sansa is going to end up with, but I find it highly unlikely to be Aegon.

By the way, I recently found that San in Celtic language means river - don't know if that make any sense in the light of the book thou. :dunno:

[adreamer]

Actually it makes sense that Sansa's name is connected to river. At least in my country's tradition you should name your firstborn after the fathers family, in ideal case grandfather or grandmother name, but anything connected to the family would do, and naturally you would name your second born after the mothers family, hence river, because Cat's family rules the riverlands.

Sandor's name is a little bit more tricky here, but I think Martin wanted to establish connection between these two even through their names. Otherwise I cannot explain why he chose to name him Sandor instead of Alexander, which is the original name, since Sandor=Alexander in Hungarian. And of course Alexander means warrior, protector, defender. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I am of the minority in that I actually kinda liked Aegon and I hope he is the real deal....and even if he is fake, I don't care. He is young and still a bit brash due to youth but so far seems quite adept and has his mind/heart in the right place. He doesn't come across as a bad kid at all to me. Has he had less than perfect moments? Yes. So has every other character in the book. It makes him human.

I actually think it is important whether he is real or not, and I was absolutely overjoyed when I opened up ADWD and got to Tyrion's chapter with Young Griff (I figured out who Aegon was supposed to be before Tyrion too since the Aegon is alive theories have been going for over 10 years around here). It was such a thrill to see the baby Aegon is alive theory really, well, alive, in the flesh. I was dragged over to "Aegon is fake" kicking and screaming ;) but I am convinced by now he's a fake setup by Varys and Illyrio.

There are some very very strong pieces of circumstantial evidence that Aegon is not a Targaryen, he is a Blackfyre. The strongest one by far is Illyrio's comment about the Golden Company and why they, for the first time ever, break a contract. The reason? "Some contracts are written in blood". But the Golden Company warred *against* the Targaryens and Bittersteel wanted a Blackfyre to rule, and to come back and re-establish a Blackfyre dynasty. I believe Jon Connington thinks that the commander of the Golden Company knew about Aegon and who he was, which I think is true. The only question is: does Jon Connington? In this case the POV is setup to deceive us, since Jon Con thinks he knows the truth first, but actually the GC commander knows the *real* truth. Aegon is fake Aegon, and Dany's Mummer's dragon, which means his time in Westeros will likely be short.

If the Golden Company was so eager to follow a Targaryen, they would have followed Viserys who tried to get them to join forces with him, but they just laughed him off. Why suddenly join up with another random Targareyn? It only makes sense if Aegon is a Blackfyre and they know he is a Blackfyre.

Further, regarding Sansa as wife to Aegon, that very likely won't happen for a couple of reasons:

a. she is already married to Tyrion and he is absent

b. Sansa has no power to offer him as her family has been destroyed and the North is too far away to matter in the battle for Kings Landing

c. Arianne is moving towards Aegon's position and will most likely try and ally Dorne to him, possibly by marriage. Indicating that Arianne's and Jon Connington's POVs will be brought together in TWOW, possibly also with Cersei's if the move on Kings Landing and take it.

d. if we consider Sansa's future and who she will have around her as more or less a major plot line, GRRM has indicated that the major players have all been introduced quite early on. Aegon was not introduced until ADWD, Jaime and Sandor in AGOT and Brienne in ACOK.

Yup :) Jaime as the Dragonknight, Sandor as Serwyn of the Mirrorshield, and Brienne being paralleled with Symeon Star-Eyes (the whole bit about the sapphires for eyes).

I can totally see Jaime as Aemon the Dragonknight (nice parallel with Naerys and Cersei!) and Brienne with Symeon Star-Eyes, but why Sandor as Serwyn? I feel like I am missing something I should remember! :) He killed a Medusa like monster behind a mirror shield I seem to remember, but I am coming up short with anything else.

[brashcandy]

I agree, adreamer. I think GRRM has subtly established the significance of the similarity in their names by having the other two notable men in Sansa's life comment either sardonically or nostalgically on these coincidences. In Sansa's final chapter, LF mocks the Elys/Alys combination, and Tyrion talked wistfully in an earlier book about Tysha noting that their names began in the same way. Sansa and Sandor (sansan) is like the big elephant in the room just waiting to be discovered :)

[1234567]

I agree, adreamer. I think GRRM has subtly established the significance of the similarity in their names by having the other two notable men in Sansa's life comment either sardonically or nostalgically on these coincidences. In Sansa's final chapter, LF mocks the Elys/Alys combination, and Tyrion talked wistfully in an earlier book about Tysha noting that their names began in the same way. Sansa and Sandor (sansan) is like the big elephant in the room just waiting to be discovered :)

Not to mention Alayne / Clegane.