From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[brashcandy]

"A hound will die for you, but never lie to you" <--- that quote could very well foreshadow Sandor's death at some point =( I really hope not, though...

I'll say it again, the Hound did die for Sansa already :)

The Elder Brother:

I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by the cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for his wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms.

[Valkyrja]

I'll say it again, the Hound did die for Sansa already :)

The Elder Brother:

Thanks, brashcandy! It's been a helluva long time since I've read Feast.....that little tidbit had fled my mind.

The thought of the Hound dying in someone's arms (even if 'just' the Elder Brother's) has unexpectedly hit me quite hard....... :crying:

[Caro99]

Aegon also seemed a little shallow to me, and maybe too full of himself. I get that he is young and has been led up to believe that he is the only living child of Rhaegar, whom many considered was just perfection, so he’s been hearing all along how great he’s dad was and how he is just like him. I can forgive him his over-confidence due to his inexperience, but he isn’t as it was noted above, the perfect king as Varys thinks, and I guess Illyrio too (I’ve even come across some speculation about Illyrio being Aegon’s real dad…) but since he was introduced until Dance, I think he won’t be a major character in the way the Lannisters, Dany or the Starks are. He may die in a great fight or he may be revealed as a Blackfyre and thus exiled once more, or he may marry Arianne Martell or Dany… but if George wants him to be the king of Westeros at the end, then I hope he grows into a good honorable king- regardless of Sansa marrying him or not. I’ve already mentioned why I don’t want him to marry Sansa, but otherwise I am not really concerned with his fate. Maybe Willas Tyrell would be a better match for Sansa, but then, his character has not yet been introduced, so I can’t wait for George to let us know more about Highgarden to see if we can discard this suitor or not- count harry the heir here as well.

Kittykatknits mentioned some clever things about Cersei and the younger more beautiful queen prophecy. I especially liked this, “I've thought it was about her own destruction as much as anything. The one who is younger and more beautiful could be almost any of the women in the series really.” I remember Ser Kevan lannister in his epilogue chapter lamenting on the way Cersei turned out to be when compared to the promising beautiful willful girl she once was. So maybe Cersei will be haunted by the memory of her younger self and the great queen she could’ve been if she had married Rhaegar or something..?

Kittykatknits, you mentioned a parallel about ASOIAF & LotR, and how they both start with everyone at one place only to have them re-unite. Reminds me of what Jon says to Arya back in AGOT about how sometimes different paths led to the same castle… & then lyanna replied that she thinks rickon, sansa and arya will be returning to winterfell, even if it isn’t the same place they remember. This lead me to wonder if bran or arya would be considered as the “sacrificed” character for the major good of everyone in the way Frodo was. He saved the world, but in the end he could not even be present to see the good of his actions. So maybe, if bran becomes a tree, arya would be the one stark sibling to be sacrificed? I guess I mean that she would not really be living at winterfell, maybe cause she prefers to be a FM or prefers to be Gendry’s wife somewhere, since I think Sansa would be better than arya to tutor rickon till he comes of age..?

Thanks lyanna, I had no idea the place arya is heading next was near volantis! I actually imagined it would be somewhere near Norvos or Lorath.

Voodoqueen, loved your post on Sansa and her different ways of being polite- of course the one she experiences with Sandor had to be the genuine one

I don’t want Tyrion to see tysha again. Neither would benefit from it, in my opinion.

[Maroucia]

All those talks about Aegon made me realise something… I knew it before, but I’m mostly attracted by men with dark hair, so this silver-golden hair boy doesn’t attract me at all. I’m not saying that I have to be attracted by a character to like him, but it helps. (And also, I have a thing for older men and Aegon is what, 16 years old?? :ack: )

That comment I made was really superficial, but apart from that, as many of you have commented before, Aegon’s arrival was way too late to give him any kind of credibility in the whole story. Sansa has nothing to do with him. I don’t even understand why people came with the idea that Sansa and him would end up together…

But! Anything is possible in the ASOIAF world, so I’m open to anybody’s theory and won’t judge any of them; we will all have to wait and see to know what will really happen in the end… That’s sooo exciting!!!

[Queen of Winter]

Thanks, brashcandy! It's been a helluva long time since I've read Feast.....that little tidbit had fled my mind.

The thought of the Hound dying in someone's arms (even if 'just' the Elder Brother's) has unexpectedly hit me quite hard....... :crying:

True, but it's just the Hound persona that's "passed away", Sandor is still there! ;) The Hound aspect was a creation of his own making (a mask if you will), and it's time for him to move past that and become who he was meant to be. Looking foward to seeing Sandor version 2.0 when he leaves the QI. B)

[voodooqueen126]

All those talks about Aegon made me realise something… I knew it before, but I’m mostly attracted by men with dark hair, so this silver-golden hair boy doesn’t attract me at all. I’m not saying that I have to be attracted by a character to like him, but it helps. (And also, I have a thing for older men and Aegon is what, 16 years old?? :ack: )

That comment I made was really superficial, but apart from that, as many of you have commented before, Aegon’s arrival was way too late to give him any kind of credibility in the whole story. Sansa has nothing to do with him. I don’t even understand why people came with the idea that Sansa and him would end up together…

But! Anything is possible in the ASOIAF world, so I’m open to anybody’s theory and won’t judge any of them; we will all have to wait and see to know what will really happen in the end… That’s sooo exciting!!!

I think it's the opposite. blond hair is a feature of childhood, i had blond hair when I was 2, but it has since darkened, likewise my pre-adolescent crushes where blond boys, but from adolescence onwards I have preferred dark haired men.

Blond hair is a symbol of youth and childishness, but it is somehow a terribly unsexy characteristic, since sex, for the normal person, is a feature of adulthood.

Generally people find blond hair attractive for it's association with youth and in non-westerners a preference for blond hair (if present) seems to be about status (for instance early Japanese depictions of Westerners show blond hair/westerners as being very ugly, yet today they dye their hair blond, despite the fact that it is highly unflattering)

[Kittykatknits]

I'll say it again, the Hound did die for Sansa already :)

The Elder Brother:

Thanks for the reminder. Maybe their is hope for my dream ending after all....

Kittykatknits, you mentioned a parallel about ASOIAF & LotR, and how they both start with everyone at one place only to have them re-unite. Reminds me of what Jon says to Arya back in AGOT about how sometimes different paths led to the same castle… & then lyanna replied that she thinks rickon, sansa and arya will be returning to winterfell, even if it isn’t the same place they remember. This lead me to wonder if bran or arya would be considered as the “sacrificed” character for the major good of everyone in the way Frodo was. He saved the world, but in the end he could not even be present to see the good of his actions. So maybe, if bran becomes a tree, arya would be the one stark sibling to be sacrificed? I guess I mean that she would not really be living at winterfell, maybe cause she prefers to be a FM or prefers to be Gendry’s wife somewhere, since I think Sansa would be better than arya to tutor rickon till he comes of age..?

It's possible. If one more Stark kid does die, I think Arya is the most likely one. But, they have had so much bitter heaped on them already, I really hope that does ot happen.

We talk a bit about how Martin subverts tropes but if you look at the entire work, we see how much he follows traditional fantasy too. We have the hero with a mysterious origin and great destiny (Jon), the Damsel in Distress (Sansa), the Evil Queen (Cersei), the knights/warrior (Brienne, Sandor, Jaime), the Warrior Princess (Arya), the Magician (Bran, Melisandre, Bloodraven) and so on. He subverts the typical trope but the different elements are still there. I thnk Jon's comment was foreshadowing. The very first time I read this series, way back when, I had the theory that the series would end where it began - in Winterfell. Now, we have a big battle for WF and hints that characters will start moving in that direction. I also think that the story is, ultimately, about the Starks. We know the title for one of the books was Time for Wolves and Martin said the whole idea for the story started with the dead direwolve scene. I think what you are describing fits that very well.

Note though, I am a pretty big Stark fangirl so that may influence my opinions.

All those talks about Aegon made me realise something… I knew it before, but I’m mostly attracted by men with dark hair, so this silver-golden hair boy doesn’t attract me at all. I’m not saying that I have to be attracted by a character to like him, but it helps. (And also, I have a thing for older men and Aegon is what, 16 years old?? :ack: )

That comment I made was really superficial, but apart from that, as many of you have commented before, Aegon’s arrival was way too late to give him any kind of credibility in the whole story. Sansa has nothing to do with him. I don’t even understand why people came with the idea that Sansa and him would end up together…

I don't find blond hair on men attractive either so I guess I'm just as superficial? Combine his hair color with the fact that he's almost 20 years younger than me and yeah....

I would never have thought about Sansa ending up with Aegon myself. Never occured to me until I saw someone mention it on here.

I think it's the opposite. blond hair is a feature of childhood, i had blond hair when I was 2, but it has since darkened, likewise my pre-adolescent crushes where blond boys, but from adolescence onwards I have preferred dark haired men.

Blond hair is a symbol of youth and childishness, but it is somehow a terribly unsexy characteristic, since sex, for the normal person, is a feature of adulthood.

Generally people find blond hair attractive for it's association with youth and in non-westerners a preference for blond hair (if present) seems to be about status (for instance early Japanese depictions of Westerners show blond hair/westerners as being very ugly, yet today they dye their hair blond, despite the fact that it is highly unflattering)

OT but: I had curly, platinum blond hair when I was younger too. My family also lived in Japan when I was a child so I did quite a bit of child modeling. I remember seeing ads with me on them in trains and the side of buses. I didn't understand why I was in demand until I was much older.

[Kittykatknits]

dbl post.

[brashcandy]

Kittykatknits - really cool story about your child modeling days :) I actually don't mind guys with blond hair, but chalk that up to a pretty hot university experience with a pretty hot blond long haired guy.... :cool4: :cool4: Moving on.... :)

All those talks about Aegon made me realise something… I knew it before, but I’m mostly attracted by men with dark hair, so this silver-golden hair boy doesn’t attract me at all. I’m not saying that I have to be attracted by a character to like him, but it helps. (And also, I have a thing for older men and Aegon is what, 16 years old?? :ack: )

I really like how everything LF is telling Sansa is going to come back to bite him in the ass. He's totally preparing Sansa for a life with him when he tells her that younger girls are happier with older men, but what he doesn't know is that there's another older man in her life whom she's already attracted to. Even his efforts to get her to adopt the identiy of Alayne Stone might ultimately work in Sandor's favour, since it's arguable that Sansa can only be with Sandor if she remains a bastard girl.

[Elba the Intoner]

I had a few pages of reading to catch up on from over the weekend and so many interesting things have been brought up. Lyanna's theory about LF either knowing where Tysha is or having proof that Tyrion and Tysha are still married, which therefore means that Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was not legal, is something I had not thought of before. It's a good idea since if anyone would know about what happened to Tysha, it would be LF, especially as it seems LF had it out for Tyrion for quite a while. I have to admit, when I was reading ADWD it never occurred to me that Tyrion would ever find Tysha and just took it as evidence of his obvious obsession over it and how much it scarred him. It seemed to me to represent his character arc. I was very surprised when I first came on these boards and saw people discussing how Tyrion might meet up with Tysha again and I really hope he never does. As others said, I think it would be better for him to come to terms with it and move on, in a parallel to the Hound persona being killed off and Sandor putting behind him the idea of vengeance on his brother.

And speaking of Tyrion, I still think he has much unfinished business with LF and the Vale. There is still his promise to the Vale mountain clans to give them the Vale. Is that over and done with? And Tyrion has as many reasons as Sansa to hate LF and want to destroy him. I wonder if that will ever come back into play. Since Sansa is in the Vale now with LF, another possibility for the way her story could go is that she and Tyrion could join forces against LF, though right now that seems unlikely. There's also the possibility of Sansa trying to escape through the mountains and running into the mountain clans. Her marriage to Tyrion and the Clans previous relationship to him could come into play somehow that way. There are so many possibilities.

I also find it difficult to support the idea that Sansa and Aegon will end up together for the reasons that you all said above. I think it's much more likely that Sansa and Tyrion will stay married than Sansa ends up with Aegon. NOTE: I am not saying that's what I want for Sansa or Tyrion, just that given all the unfinished business Tyrion has with LF, the Vale and his connection with Sansa, I see that as more likely.

I'd much rather see something closer to what Brashcandy just suggested above:

I really like how everything LF is telling Sansa is going to come back to bite him in the ass. He's totally preparing Sansa for a life with him when he tells her that younger girls are happier with older men, but what he doesn't know is that there's another older man in her life whom she's already attracted to. Even his efforts to get her to adopt the identiy of Alayne Stone might ultimately work in Sandor's favour, since it's arguably that Sansa can only be with Sandor if she remains a bastard girl.

:agree: :cheers:

[1234567]

The thing is we know Tyrion was set up by LF, but I don't know if that is where his story is headed. He is very far away from that plotting geographically. Sansa however is there and has been set-up with LF as an antagonist since book 1.

I really hope we don't see the Mountain Clans again. They murder and rape and were chased out of KL because of this behaviour. If they turn in to Tyrion's Band of Merry Men, I maybe sick. We already have the "loveable Wildlings of the North" which are barely believable and quite correctly causing problems due to their rape culture.

I can't see the Vale Lords supporting Sansa if she looks for help from the clansmen.

Edit: Also I would be really disappointed if after all his where do the Whores go? If Tyrion gets back to CR as Lord and rather than using his resources to find out what happened to Tysha, he goes ah there's my hot young wife. Oh well Tysha was a shame, must put it behind me, tra la la la la.

[Valkyrja]

True, but it's just the Hound persona that's "passed away", Sandor is still there! ;) The Hound aspect was a creation of his own making (a mask if you will), and it's time for him to move past that and become who he was meant to be. Looking foward to seeing Sandor version 2.0 when he leaves the QI. B)

Yes, I realize that the EB did not mean it literally. Nevertheless, there is just something really heart-breaking to me about the image of Sandor just lying there 'dying' after Arya leaves him. :(

[Lady.]

Hi all - relatively newer lurker, but finally decided I needed a place to express my thoughts regarding Sansa. So I caved!

I found Sansa quite one-dimensional in GoT but gradually as her character begins to grow, mature and evolve (similar to Sandor, Arya, Brienne, Jaime and Tyrion) she quickly became my favourite to read. Pretty much since the first reading I have been a 'Sansan' fan - though maybe that's just because I was so desperate for any 2 characters to have strong chemistry that I read into things too much!

What has always attracted me uniquely to their relationship is that they represent the two extremes of Westeros society, and in a way, are the inverse of each other. Sansa is generally regarded to (or soon to become) be one of the most beautiful women in all of Westeros. She has been shaped and moulded (and enjoyed this process) to become a great Lady (or Queen) - obviously that is reflected in the naming of her direwolf. And then we have Sandor, perhaps alongside with Tyrion, one of the most disfigured men in Westeros, known for his brutality (on the field) and his warrior abilities. To have such stark contrasts between two people, who in turn use these qualities to help the other (Sansa's humanizing or gentling Sandor, Sandor opening her eyes to the reality of the world around her) I find incredibly compelling.

I do like them romantically for this reason - the age difference has never really bothered me. I think you have to suspend disbelief when you read the books in this regard - I mean, a baby and 10 year old Tommen get married (obviously not to each other!). In a time and place where anyone above 30 is considered older, I think it's clear that GRRM has set the life span up as a more medieval society and I don't really think it's anything worth getting hung up on.

Anyway - on to my general observations - sorry they are a bit of a jumble (and if any are repeats)!

• One of the things I noticed was that Sansa hardly ever uses the Hound or Sandor's name when she is in conversation with him. I first noticed this because (being a super nerd), sometimes I just wanted to rush ahead and see if they had any interactions. So I would search for 'Hound' or 'Sandor' (on my ipad) and his name wouldn't crop up and then I would be pleasantly surprised when I came to find she had thought about him in her chapter! For example, in the BBW, despite have a 2-3 page interaction (according to my ipad/kindle) the name 'Hound' comes up only once and Sandor not at all. He is often just described in such a way that we know that it is him (ie. his scars, his voice, his size). I've tried to think about the significance of this but can't come to any definite conclusions - so any further thoughts would be more than welcome!
  

• Regarding the infamous 'I should have f*cked her bloody' scene, I read it as the realization of his vulnerability, and the death of the Hound. He (like Sansa) is a person of 2 names and 2 sides. His sadness comes not from what he did or did not do, but rather his realization that he is not the cruel and hardened person he should be. Because if he was truly the vicious Hound, he would have raped her. He doesn't say he wish he had, but rather that he should have - because that's what a soulless Hound would do. But he does have a soul, he does care for her (and for others), he does have a moral code that he lives by. The cruel person he thinks he should be (and has a reputation for) doesn't actually exist. I hope this makes sense - it's quite a hard emotion to describe, but no matter how many times I re-read that interaction, I read it that way.
  

• the unkiss. I've read quite a few of the theories of this and while they have evidence to support them, I just can't buy in that Sansa is warg-ing Sandor or that she is reading his mind. In part, this is just because I think it's too difficult to write and confusing for the reader to understand. There would have to be a major moment in which Sansa uses these abilities again and then reflects back on the unkiss, in order to explain it (which is, admittedly, possible). But I also believe the unkiss is a moment connected with Sansa (as opposed to Alayne) and it is an experience that ties her to her true self (even if it is imagined). She thinks as much when she is going down the mountain with SR and Randa - something along the lines of 'I need to put that out of my mind because that was Sansa, and I'm no longer her'. I also connect it with her burgeoning sexuality because it's only when she starts discussing men/kissing/sex with others, that this mis-remembrance emerges. I still haven't decided if she imagines it because it's something she genuinely wants or it is a protection mechanism.
  

• Finally (!), and while this is a hardly new revelation, I think Sandor is the one person she encounters that she can truly be herself with. In her interactions with a lot of other characters, she always thinks before she speaks (ie. will this displease them, they are lying, I need to be courteous, etc.) whereas with him, it's a constant flow of dialogue. Even more so, she feels comfortable enough to say what she thinks. Again in the BBW (I think it's this scene?) she thinks 'why is he here?' and in a dialogue with anyone else she would have tried to puzzle it out later. But with Sandor, only a couple lines later she comes out and asks him. Certainly this comfort is an evolution - she wouldn't have said this the first time they talk - but it demonstrates her growing trust in him and the depth of their relationship.
  

Okay - I think that's enough for a first post! I certainly have other thoughts but don't want to wear out my welcome too soon!

[Queen of Winter]

One of the things I noticed was that Sansa hardly ever uses the Hound or Sandor's name when she is in conversation with him. I first noticed this because (being a super nerd), sometimes I just wanted to rush ahead and see if they had any interactions. So I would search for 'Hound' or 'Sandor' (on my ipad) and his name wouldn't crop up and then I would be pleasantly surprised when I came to find she had thought about him in her chapter! For example, in the BBW, despite have a 2-3 page interaction (according to my ipad/kindle) the name 'Hound' comes up only once and Sandor not at all. He is often just described in such a way that we know that it is him (ie. his scars, his voice, his size). I've tried to think about the significance of this but can't come to any definite conclusions - so any further thoughts would be more than welcome!

Wonderful first post, Lady! :)

Also, I think that it's the same with Sandor using Sansa's name. If I remember correctly, I think he only ever calls her "Little Bird" (and never Sansa--though did he use Sansa's name when talking to Arya about her? Come to think of it, I think Sandor always called Arya "She Wolf" or "Wolf Bitch" too, never by her name either.)

It's interesting about the names though. I believe in some cultures it's believed that to give someone your name is for them to have power over you.

EDIT: formatting

EDIT 2: Also interesting that Arya in her faceless man training has to take on many faces/names and not be "Arya Stark" anymore.

I did find this online (I know people have mentioned the TV tropes site before.) and it talkes about "True Names":

"Fear names. Names have power in identity. Others can use names as weapons. Names are a hook that can be used to track you... Remain nameless, and you shall be safe. I am the Nameless One."

— Planescape: Torment

"The name is the thing, and the true name is the true thing. To speak the name is to control the thing."

— The Rule of Names, Ursula K. Le Guin

This is a version of Functional Magic that revolves around the use of "true names." A true name perfectly describes something's essential nature; knowing a true name gives one power over the owner of the name. True names are frequently words in a Language of Magic, but they don't have to be. In some portrayals, using a person's true name forces them to obey your commands. In others, a true name gives you a connection to the name's owner that allows you to work magic on it from a distance. Sometimes, a person's true name is needed if you want to work any magic on him at all.

In some stories, all creatures have true names, while others limit the use of true names to certain kinds of creatures, such as fairies, demons, or dragons. As a rule, objects do not have true names.

A person's true name might be self-determined, or bestowed on him by someone else—possibly in a religious or magical ritual. In works which feature true names prominently, people tend to guard them jealously, and will even have a second name (or two or three or more, depending on the character's age) for everyday use.

Audiences might think that having a very long or difficult-to-pronounce true name might provide one with a shield against being enspelled, but it never occurs to characters. Except for demons. Demonic names are frequently impossible for humans to pronounce.

Contrast with Speak of the Devil, where saying a name summons the named entity, but doesn't confer any power or control over it. Compare Sympathetic Magic, where you need some other part of a person to work magic on them.

Compare its related trope (and former title) Words Can Break My Bones as well as Language of Magic.

[brashcandy]

Welcome Lady, and that was a wonderful and thought provoking post on SanSan to begin your Westeros experience :)

One of the things I noticed was that Sansa hardly ever uses the Hound or Sandor's name when she is in conversation with him. I first noticed this because (being a super nerd), sometimes I just wanted to rush ahead and see if they had any interactions. So I would search for 'Hound' or 'Sandor' (on my ipad) and his name wouldn't crop up and then I would be pleasantly surprised when I came to find she had thought about him in her chapter! For example, in the BBW, despite have a 2-3 page interaction (according to my ipad/kindle) the name 'Hound' comes up only once and Sandor not at all. He is often just described in such a way that we know that it is him (ie. his scars, his voice, his size). I've tried to think about the significance of this but can't come to any definite conclusions - so any further thoughts would be more than welcome!

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this as well. Personally, I think it's meant to illustrate the depth and intensity of their relationship - the fact that she doesn't need to "name" him, but his impact and presence is felt strongly nevertheless. It's shown particularly in AFFC, when she remembers that "he" came to her when green fire filled the sky, and readers know she's talking about Sandor, but he isn't referenced by name. His importance in her life has eclipsed the common-place necessity of names, almost. It also helps to create a sense of mystery and romantic intrigue, which is quite interesting when you consider that we're talking about a man who's been regarded as a violent dog by most people around him. By not naming him, Sansa transforms him into her own hero, and succeeds in keeping that special relationship secret and meaningful between them.

[Valkyrja]

Yes, excellent first post, Lady! :)

Wonderful first post, Lady! :)

Also, I think that it's the same with Sandor using Sansa's name. If I remember correctly, I think he only ever calls her "Little Bird" (and never Sansa--though did he use Sansa's name when talking to Arya about her? Come to think of it, I think Sandor always called Arya "She Wolf" or "Wolf Bitch" too, never by her name either.)

It's interesting about the names though, I believe in some cultures to give someone your name is for them to have power over you.

Interesting.....perhaps Alayne can still be a 'little bird'.... :)

[Queen of Winter]

Yes, excellent first post, Lady! :)

Interesting.....perhaps Alayne can still be a 'little bird'.... :)

I certainly hope so! :)

[Queen of Winter]

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this as well. Personally, I think it's meant to illustrate the depth and intensity of their relationship - the fact that she doesn't need to "name" him, but his impact and presence is felt strongly nevertheless. It's shown particularly in AFFC, when she remembers that "he" came to her when green fire filled the sky, and readers know she's talking about Sandor, but he isn't referenced by name. His importance in her life has eclipsed the common-place necessity of names, almost. It also helps to create a sense of mystery and romantic intrigue, which is quite interesting when you consider that we're talking about a man who's been regarded as a violent dog by most people around him. By not naming him, Sansa transforms him into her own hero, and succeeds in keeping that special relationship secret and meaningful between them.

Very well stated, brash. :agree: (And if I might add--I think it's rather beautiful too.) :)

[brashcandy]

Very well stated, brash. :agree: (And if I might add--I think it's rather beautiful too.) :)

Thank you! :kiss: I think your point on naming and how it can have power over someone is quite relevant too, particularly as it relates to Sansa and Sandor and other characters like Arya and Theon.

[adreamer]

I think you refer to someone as he, when this person have some special meaning to you - there is just one he. At least when I think of my children in my mind I don't name them - i just refer to them as he and she, because they are so special, I don't need to name them.