Someone other than Dany, Jon Could end up with

[butterbumps!]

Dumb question maybe, but ... why can't the blue rose just be symbolic of the love Rhaegar and Lyanna had for each other, with the rose being just symbolic of Jon himself? Why does it have to have some sort of significance to Jon and Dany's dynamic, too? Do either of the other two visions have that kind of double-layered meaning, as far as you can tell?

Oh- yea, I don't think the blue flower has to have extra layers of meaning. It is interesting though that they do come with a motif of pertaining to unattainable love throughout the series. To be sure, I'd never gotten the impression that Dany and Jon would end up together, and the idea is somewhat nauseating to me, but I think there's some implication to suggest that some kind of revelation, possibly involving love, will take place between Dany and Jon. I happen to think it will be one of opposition though.

I thought this thread was for discussion about another possible candidate that Jon might end up with other than Daenerys. How then, did it become bogged down with discussion about Daenerys? Aren't there already threads for that?

Haha- sorry. I had tried thinking it through, and really, I don't see Jon wanting to cement his claim to any house or throne, and especially not through marriage. And this is assuming he lives, which I kind of don't think he will. As repellant a thought to me personally, I don't think it makes any sense for anyone other than Dany to play a role in this, and even then I don't get the sense he'd reciprocate. The only way I could see Jon ending up with someone is if he chooses some unknown wildling or commoner and settles on a farm removing himself from this game (assuming he lives and conquers all, thereby enabling the dismantling of the Night's Watch permanently).

[Faint]

What if we go with the assumption that Jon ends up king and, for whatever reason (i.e., death, dislike, etc.), he doesn't end up with Daenerys or doesn't end up with her long-term -- who then, does he marry?

[ARYa_Nym]

And we're back to the old question of how Dany will be able to figure it out, and how Jon himself will be convinced. This is even assuming that it will even matter in terms of succession. I think that Jon's parentage is important only insofar as it relates to the prophecy, not in terms of who's going to sit on the Iron Throne. I don't think there will even be an Iron Throne at the end. So all of this political jockeying and "Oh they totally need to marry each other for political reasons" is completely baffling to me. I don't think it's going to matter, and I think that's really the entire point of the story — politicking and all of that nonsense doesn't matter. It's facing the real threat that matters, and if you can do that, you don't need to do political maneuvering, whether you're Jon or Dany.

This is what you think will happen. I don't think so. Therein lies the disagreement. There's nothing in the text that says that there won't be/will be a united Westeros in the end or that Jon's parentage does/doesn't matter besides allowing him to fulfill a prophecy.

When a second Dance of the Dragons is said to be on the horizon, that's the only outcome that makes much sense.

I don't see her settling on being a consort when she could be the monarch. Sorry. I don't.

ETA: I'm done arguing about Jon and Dany. I've already said that none of what you're saying is changing my mind. It's off-topic. So just ... stop, and I will too.

Not really. He could die but that doesn't mean that it will be because she killed him.

Some even think that both Jon and Dany will die and the Blackfyres will take over and rule.

ETA: I'm done arguing about Jon and Dany. I've already said that none of what you're saying is changing my mind. It's off-topic. So just ... stop, and I will too.

Fine, we're done.

[Francis Buck]

I can't wait until Jon and Dany end up leading two massive armies against each other instead of getting married.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I doubt either Jon or Dany will be spending their time doing a CSI Westeros, figuring out Jon's and Aegon's identity and who the rightful heir is, etc. What will likely connect them is the fact that both of them will be leading large armies, and they will both want the Iron Throne. We know why Dany wants it, but why would Jon? Because he wants to stop the Others, and Robb's old kingdom alone likely cannot do that. Jon, of all people, will realize the necessity of having a united realm in the face of an Others invasion. If he doesn't like Stannis' chances to win, or the other contenders (who have made no effort to defend the realm), I could definitely see him deciding he needs to take the thing himself.

Now if Jon does decide to present himself to the realm as a Targ, a marriage to Dany would certainly bolster his claim to legitimacy, beyond whatever evidence he is presenting. But it would only be the icing on the cake, what really matters is that she is bringing an army and/or dragon(s) to the table. The same would be true if he was presenting himself as a Stark.

Personally, I think Dany would bring him the most political benefits as a wife, but Margaery Tyrell and Arianne Martell would also offer Jon similar benefits. I pretty much limit Jon's potential mates to just those 3 women, because I can't think of any other daughter of a great house who could secure Jon the loyalty of an entire kingdom (or in Dany's case, a large foreign army) with just a marriage. Val and Asha don't meet any of these criteria. And, thank the gods, neither do Sansa or Arya.

[Nausicaä]

I'm way too attached to this thread for my own good, but does anyone else think Jon and Sansa would work? or is it just me? :dunno:

It's not just you :P

Personally, I think Dany would bring him the most political benefits as a wife, but Margaery Tyrell and Arianne Martell would also offer Jon similar benefits. I pretty much limit Jon's potential mates to just those 3 women, because I can't think of any other daughter of a great house who could secure Jon the loyalty of an entire kingdom (or in Dany's case, a large foreign army) with just a marriage. Val and Asha don't meet any of these criteria. And, thank the gods, neither do Sansa or Arya.

I'm not a fan of Jon/Asha, but how is she not a daughter of a great house that could secure a kingdom for him? With Theon, the decision of the last Kingsmoot can be challenged, since he has the best claim, but wasn't present. He isn't, however, a king material himself. So if Euron takes a hit, if there's anyone that could use the situation and take power from him, it's Asha.

I'm probably alone in this, but I don't think it's set in stone that political benefits will be the deciding factor in Jon's mind when/if he decides to marry. I think it's also possible that he will just marry the woman he falls in love with, one that he could create a home and have a family and a son named Robb with. And despite her being a wildling and not coming with an army, I don't think the Northmen would find Val all that objectionable as a wife to their leader. She's smart, strong, proud, graceful, well-spoken — and yes, very beautiful. Her relation to Mance is no real reason to call her a princess — Jaime and Tyrion have never been called princes, have they? — but everyone in Stannis' court does it because she fits their idea of what a princess/highborn lady is. In the South they might look down at her as they did at Ellaria, but I think she has a much better chance to be the Queen of Winter than someone like Myrcella (who has also been suggested as a match for Jon).

[ARYa_Nym]

It's not just you :P

I'm not a fan of Jon/Asha, but how is she not a daughter of a great house that could secure a kingdom for him? With Theon, the decision of the last Kingsmoot can be challenged, since he has the best claim, but wasn't present. He isn't, however, a king material himself. So if Euron takes a hit, if there's anyone that could use the situation and take power from him, it's Asha.

I'm probably alone in this, but I don't think it's set in stone that political benefits will be the deciding factor in Jon's mind when/if he decides to marry. I think it's also possible that he will just marry the woman he falls in love with, one that he could create a home and have a family and a son named Robb with. And despite her being a wildling and not coming with an army, I don't think the Northmen would find Val all that objectionable as a wife to their leader. She's smart, strong, proud, graceful, well-spoken — and yes, very beautiful. Her relation to Mance is no real reason to call her a princess — Jaime and Tyrion have never been called princes, have they? — but everyone in Stannis' court does it because she fits their idea of what a princess/highborn lady is. In the South they might look down at her as they did at Ellaria, but I think she has a much better chance to be the Queen of Winter than someone like Myrcella (who has also been suggested as a match for Jon).

I like Asha but she would most certainly use Iron Born tactics to gain a kingdom. She also hasn't given up on her dream of getting on the Seastone Chair whether directly or through Theon. If Jon wants to live there and become an Iron Born then she would be a good wife.

Val is a good option if Jon wants to be a wildling.

This is what Jon told Stannis:

"Drinking from Mance Rayder's skull may give Mors Umber pleasure, but seeing wildlings cross his lands will not. The free folk have been raiding the Umbers since the Dawn of Days, crossing the Bay of Seals for gold and sheep and women. One of those carried off was Crowfood's daughter. Your Grace, leave the wildlings here. Taking them will only serve to turn my lord father's bannermen against you."

Wylla Manderly would be better. Alysane Mormont may not want to marry at this stage but she is also better.

[Night Gathers]

I'll repeat my question, since I'd like to see how someone who believes Dany and Jon will end up together thinks.

I don't understand why Jon or Danny would marry one another, if it turns out they're both Targaryens then it would be more fitting that both marry lords from other houses to form alliances. That's basically what marriage is all about in Westeros.

[Ser Wun Wun]

It's not just you :P

I'm not a fan of Jon/Asha, but how is she not a daughter of a great house that could secure a kingdom for him? With Theon, the decision of the last Kingsmoot can be challenged, since he has the best claim, but wasn't present. He isn't, however, a king material himself. So if Euron takes a hit, if there's anyone that could use the situation and take power from him, it's Asha.

I'm probably alone in this, but I don't think it's set in stone that political benefits will be the deciding factor in Jon's mind when/if he decides to marry. I think it's also possible that he will just marry the woman he falls in love with, one that he could create a home and have a family and a son named Robb with. And despite her being a wildling and not coming with an army, I don't think the Northmen would find Val all that objectionable as a wife to their leader. She's smart, strong, proud, graceful, well-spoken — and yes, very beautiful. Her relation to Mance is no real reason to call her a princess — Jaime and Tyrion have never been called princes, have they? — but everyone in Stannis' court does it because she fits their idea of what a princess/highborn lady is. In the South they might look down at her as they did at Ellaria, but I think she has a much better chance to be the Queen of Winter than someone like Myrcella (who has also been suggested as a match for Jon).

Asha doesn't fit the criteria for a couple reasons imo. One, I don't think the Northmen would take to a Kraken Queen after what has happened, the wounds are still too fresh. Two, the only way I see her getting control of the Ironborn is if she defeats Euron in battle (which would likely require Jon's help), and this would probably necessitate the destruction of a large part of the Ironborn fleet. The Ironborn wouldn't really be worth marrying into if that is the case.

Regarding your second point, do you really think Jon, assuming he becomes a King, would marry for love after what happened to Robb? Even if he was inclined to do so, I don't think his Northern Lords would "allow it" so to speak, seeing as how most of them just spent a year in a dungeon beneath the Twins because of Robb's folly.

If for some reason Jon was able to rule just the North, he could probably get away with marrying anyone he wishes, including Val. But I don't think this will happen, I think circumstances will force him to choose between marrying for love or for the good of his kingdom. Unlike Robb, I think Jon would put his people first in this situation. That's where I think Dany, Margaery and Arianne enter into it. I like Jon, so I hope he comes to love whoever he ends up with, like Ned and Cat found love in the marriage politics forced them into.

I'll repeat my question, since I'd like to see how someone who believes Dany and Jon will end up together thinks.

I don't understand why Jon or Danny would marry one another, if it turns out they're both Targaryens then it would be more fitting that both marry lords from other houses to form alliances. That's basically what marriage is all about in Westeros.

Well, for Targ's marriage has always been kept "in house" whenever possible. But I don't actually think Jon will be presenting himself to the realm as a Targ, I think he will be presented as a Stark and the King in the North. In fact, I'm not even sure Jon himself will know about R+L=J until near the very end of the series. So a marriage between Dany and Jon would probably be viewed as a marriage to form an alliance between different Houses.

[Night Gathers]

Well, for Targ's marriage has always been kept "in house" whenever possible.

I still don't see how that would be the determined factor which leads to Jon & Dany together, just because it has been done for generations doesn't mean it's a good chance it'll happen.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I still don't see how that would be the determined factor which leads to Jon & Dany together, just because it has been done for generations doesn't mean it's a good chance it'll happen.

No, I don't think it would either. I actually edited my post, it probably came after you were already typing your reply, sorry about that.

[Night Gathers]

No, I don't think it would either. I actually edited my post, it probably came after you were already typing your reply, sorry about that.

No need to apologize. At least we can settle that it isn't a determined factor that Jon & Dany will marry just because they're Targaryens.

[leafs43]

I can't wait until Jon and Dany end up leading two massive armies against each other instead of getting married.

I think that is probably what is going to happen as well.

Jon and Dany I believe are being foreshadowed as polar opposites.

I mean the series is called a song of ice and fire. One faction is going to have to be ice and the other fire. But I cannot tell which side is the "good" side. In the franchise, fire is said to consume everything and Ice is said to preserve.

[Nausicaä]

Asha doesn't fit the criteria for a couple reasons imo. One, I don't think the Northmen would take to a Kraken Queen after what has happened, the wounds are still too fresh. Two, the only way I see her getting control of the Ironborn is if she defeats Euron in battle (which would likely require Jon's help), and this would probably necessitate the destruction of a large part of the Ironborn fleet. The Ironborn wouldn't really be worth marrying into if that is the case.

I don't really think Northmen would take to a Greyjoy either, I was just playing the devil's advocate. But really, the Ironborn would have to be brought into the kingdom one way or another, so a marriage alliance is possible, though their next leader swearing fealty is far more likely. And I think Euron will be killed by Vic (and not in an epic naval battle), but Asha would still seize the power, she's the only sensible ruler that they could have.

(Also, couldn't the same argument be used for Arianne and Margaery? The Tyrells could have crushed the Lannisters, but chose to make peace with them, just so that Margaery could be a queen and she was married to two Lannister bastards. Arianne could be accepted in the North, but would the son of Lyanna be welcomed as her husband in Dorne?)

Regarding your second point, do you really think Jon, assuming he becomes a King, would marry for love after what happened to Robb? Even if he was inclined to do so, I don't think his Northern Lords would "allow it" so to speak, seeing as how most of them just spent a year in a dungeon beneath the Twins because of Robb's folly.

I think he could, depending on when he marries. If it happened after the war or in the beginning when he would really mostly be fighting for the North, because getting the support of the kingdoms that are still tangled up with Lannisters isn't an option... he could. Especially in the beginning: unlike Robb, he isn't promised to anyone and the Northern lords wouldn't even consider Arianne, whose brother is still engaged to Myrcella or Margaery who is still married to Tommen or some mythological chick a continent away. The Northern lords would probably prefer a girl from a Northern house, but Val would be an acceptable match too.

If for some reason Jon was able to rule just the North, he could probably get away with marrying anyone he wishes, including Val. But I don't think this will happen, I think circumstances will force him to choose between marrying for love or for the good of his kingdom. Unlike Robb, I think Jon would put his people first in this situation. That's where I think Dany, Margaery and Arianne enter into it. I like Jon, so I hope he comes to love whoever he ends up with, like Ned and Cat found love in the marriage politics forced them into.

I think the point where Jon and Val could get together will be before ruling the seven kingdoms is pushed on him. She would make some sense as a transitional love interest, but I like her as a character and don't want her to be just that.

[Ivy Snow]

A wolf!!! :D Brilliant post, as usual! i like Arianne for Jon, I really do. I love Val but i know she is gonna die so...

It's like Jon's dad married a Martell and now he will marry a Martell as well... lol..

I want him with Val though.. :D

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Val would be considered less acceptable than Arianne but slightly more acceptable than Asha because of what happened with Theon.

About Dorne, the engagement b/w Myrcella and Trystane may be called off because of the assassination attempt on Trystane. They may also ally with Aegon though. People think that Sansa will marry Aegon to be Cersei's younger queen so the North may already become an ally with Dorne through Sansa.

[Ser Wun Wun]

(Also, couldn't the same argument be used for Arianne and Margaery? The Tyrells could have crushed the Lannisters, but chose to make peace with them, just so that Margaery could be a queen and she was married to two Lannister bastards. Arianne could be accepted in the North, but would the son of Lyanna be welcomed as her husband in Dorne?)

The Tyrells never actually crossed swords with the Northmen though, so I don't think the bad blood runs that deep between the two sides. None of the Dornish character have expressed any anti-Lyanna/anti-North sentiments AFAIK. From what I can see, they blame the Lannisters more for what happened to Elia than Ned and the North.

I think he could, depending on when he marries. If it happened after the war or in the beginning when he would really mostly be fighting for the North, because getting the support of the kingdoms that are still tangled up with Lannisters isn't an option... he could. Especially in the beginning: unlike Robb, he isn't promised to anyone and the Northern lords wouldn't even consider Arianne, whose brother is still engaged to Myrcella or Margaery who is still married to Tommen or some mythological chick a continent away. The Northern lords would probably prefer a girl from a Northern house, but Val would be an acceptable match too.

I think the point where Jon and Val could get together will be before ruling the seven kingdoms is pushed on him. She would make some sense as a transitional love interest, but I like her as a character and don't want her to be just that.

Technically, I suppose he could marry for love very early on in the process, before any political realities restrict his options. I don't think he will though. He will have more pressing concerns once he is revived, I think. I expect him to immediately begin the process of uniting the North, and even during that there will be political realities that discourage him from marrying for love. Many people already believe Jon is half wildling himself, marrying one won't help matters.

Assuming he does not go south for the Iron Throne, I could see there being a period of calm after he has united the North, when the Northern Lords are all firmly under his control, when he could marry a wildling like Val without much resistance. If no such period occurs, then I cannot see him marrying her. I still definitely see Val as a transitional love interest for him though. If she is not that at least, I don't know what exactly she offers to the plot.

[Faint]

Part of the problem with this question is that everyone approaches the issue with their own preconceived notions of what position Jon is ending up in, leading to wildly different candidates for who he might marry. The way I see it, the only way a marriage for him ever occurs is if he does become king. Outside that possibility, I have a hard time envisioning the story taking the time to bother with the subject. And if he does actually marry, I'm almost certain it would be with politics in mind. After all, the example of his parents serves as a cruel reminder of what may come from failing to take politics into account, and I'm sure Jon will keep that in mind.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And if he does actually marry, I'm almost certain it would be with politics in mind. After all, the example of his parents serves as a cruel reminder of what may come from failing to take politics into account, and I'm sure Jon will keep that in mind.

Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister took politics into account. How'd that work out for them? So did Lysa Tully and Jon Arryn. So did Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. Ned and Catelyn wound up liking each other eventually, but they both still ended up dead (or undead). Stannis and Selyse, Renly and Margaery, Joffrey and Margaery, and Tyrion and Sansa are all political matches.

Do you really want to say that the political marriages end up being better than the love matches?

[nothatso]

I think Val would be considered less acceptable than Arianne but slightly more acceptable than Asha because of what happened with Theon.

Hasn't it been theorized that Val and Dalla were not wildlings by birth? I remember reading some theories on them being the kidnapped daughters of one of the Umbers (I don't recall which one). That would certainly make the pairing less objectionable if true.