Remind me, why was Tywin a bad guy again?

[Daena the Defiant]

One of the reasons why Tywin sucks as a human being is that he has no problem using violence against the innocent to assert his policy, and his policies are warped by a super-sensitive sense of pride. If you mean to say that Tywin was a good hand, I guess you can so say if you are not one of the smalfolk (The peasanst of the Riverlands, the Tarbeck and Reyne smallffolk, Tysha, etc..) who bear the brunt of his usage of rape and murder.

If making a strong kingdom means that you habtially abuse the subjects than he's a Statesman for the Ages.

[Dreadnaught]

Sounds like he could have been a sociopath.

[etu]

He wasn't losing the North nor the Riverlands. In fact, Robb going to the former pretty much indicates he's giving up the latter. And again, Robb was going there to fight common enemies of the Lannisters and of the realm Tywin says he cares so much about. Killing Robb only makes the Wildlings and Ironborn Tywin's problem, and ensures the North will never trust him again and will rebel the first chance they get.

Stannis would be unlikely to ally with him, since Tywin couldn't antecipate him going to the Wall (and well, he's Stannis), and if the Vale hasn't joined them when they were winning, they wouldn't do it at this point. Renly would also be unlikely to join them at that point, I think...but I might be wrong in that one, how do you know?

A much easier way to deal with it would be let Robb go up, make him lose men to the Wildlings and Ironborn (if not his own life), while do the same they are already doing in the Riverlands. If he captures Edmure (easy) and Blackfish (OK, not easy), then Robb's chance of rebelling again get even smaller. But Robb would still be the boy that beated him every time.

The only way he was getting both back was through force. Until such time as the force had been used, he didn't have them back. It was guaranteed that Robb would resist any invasion of the north by Tywin and if Tywin wasn't able to take back the Riverlands before Robb sorted out the Ironmen and Wildlings (which hasn't taken Stannis long at all), there's a fair chance that Robb would return there. It would be the honourable thing to do after all.

Having looked back at my chronology, Renly is a little unlikely yes (oops) but Stannis is still on the table. As potentially is the Vale. Yes, both are unlikely, but unlikely is a far greater possibility than not at all. Killing Robb changed both from unlikely to not at all. Considering that the North is already in rebellion and doesn't trust him, he doesn't lose anything.

Anyway, if you don't believe that there was still an ongoing war which Tywin couldn't walk away from without de facto agreeing to the secession of part of the Realm and a lessening of its prestige, which seems to be the case, which you seem to, then fair enough. I will agree to disagree, as I couldn't find that statement less true to the point that there's no point in discussing it.

[Blisscraft]

Baelish is more a typical sociopath.

We have heard many stories in the books about Tywins humanity. Which tells us he is not a sociopath.

"Stories about Tywins [sic] humanity." Really! Manipulation, spin, is what that is. More evidence of sociopathy, not an absolution.

As for Baelish, I never said he didn't fit the profile.

[Gurkhal]

Exactly. Tywin, one of the architects of the RW, is no better than the Freys.

Except he wasn't. ;) Tywin wanted the Freys to kill Robb and the choice of method was left to the Freys. As the Frey-to-die said to lady Stoneheart it was lame Lothar Frey and Roose Bolton who planned the whole thing and made the choice to have the Red Wedding instead of something less, stupid.

[bloodymime]

Except he wasn't. ;) Tywin wanted the Freys to kill Robb and the choice of method was left to the Freys. As the Frey-to-die said to lady Stoneheart it was lame Lothar Frey and Roose Bolton who planned the whole thing and made the choice to have the Red Wedding instead of something less, stupid.

“It was to be an arrow, at Edmure Tully’s wedding feast. The boy was too wary in the field."

Straight from Tywins mouth that he planned for Robb to be murdered while he thought he was safe under guest right.

If I were to guess I would think Bolton is the one responisble for turning their plot into a massacre since he's the one that profits the most from all the northern lords being captured or murdered.

[Chronicler]

"Stories about Tywins [sic] humanity." Really! Manipulation, spin, is what that is. More evidence of sociopathy, not an absolution.

As for Baelish, I never said he didn't fit the profile.

Though it's his family that tells these stories...not Tywin.

[DornishKnight]

You can argue back and forth all you want on the RW, Gregor Clegane, Riverlands, Sack of Kings Landing. I myself would have considered him a dark grey character if not for one unforgivable act:

The gangrape of a 13-year old girl.

[Lord Yarwyck]

You can argue back and forth all you want on

Your post has given me some food for thought, so I will

the RW,

Ty's rationale: "The Starks are threatening the honour and power of my house and spreading stories about my favoured children that I think are a little too plausible. Incidentally, the War they started is bringing misery and bloodshed to Westeros. Ergo, they have to die.

The problem: Actually, Tywin's reasoning is fairly sympathetic in the latter part. It can be compared to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in some ways - yes, it is unpleasant to attack women and children in a civilian target, but it would be worse to force a bloody continuation of a brutal war. Better to win the war with a single decisive stroke than bleed more people for it. Also remember that, as far as Tywin knows, Ned Stark started this war by kidnapping his son and then trying to usurp power. Whilst the first bit of his reasoning is less sympathetic, in the sense that it is motivated by purely Lannister motives, it is slightly less evil when seen in the context of Tywin's own awareness of the situation. The Red Wedding brought peace to Westeros, which is a noble goal in and of itself, but is tainted by Tywin's less honourable motives.

Gregor Clegane, Riverlands

Tywin's rationale: The population of the Riverlands has sided with traitors against their rightful king. Keeping the area pacified will be a bloody chore. Instead, I shall cow them by unleashing my pet psychopaths on them and setting their lands on fire. Their plunder can feed and pay my army.

The problem: A question needs to be asked: is the brutal treatment of noncombatants unique to Tywin? The answer is no. In addition to Roose Bolton's atrocities in the Riverlands, we also know of looting, sacking and at least the murder of defenceless septons by the Northern forces under Glover during their march on Duskendale. Glover is one of Robb's "normal" bannermen, crucially not a monster like the Mountain, Manticore or Goat. However, Tywin's nasty folk are unique in that rather than the incidental violence of brutalized conscripts, they take a wanton sadism in what they do, and do it as part of a systematic attempt to break spirits.

Sack of Kings Landing.

Brutal sacking is pretty much par for the course in Westeros.

Tywin's reasoning: The royal children need to die if the new Baratheon dynasty is ever to be secure.

The problem: The problem arises in that, whilst Robert and his bannermen would probably have had to kill the children anyway (though Ned would likely have argued against it), they would have done so after much soul-searching, whilst Tywin just did it for convenience.

The gangrape of a 13-year old girl.

She was 14 (not that excuses it in any way, just nitpicking).

Tywin's rationale: My son has disgraced my house by marrying a crofter's daughter. He needs a severe lesson.

The problem: Tywin's lesson goes way beyond "severe" (like, say, forcing a divorce and having the girl whipped, which would have been bad) to "moral event horizon" (which would be, excuse mon francais, fucking horrific). This is one of his decision that was likely motivated by rage.

For TL, the ends always justify the means. However, the difficulty arises in that his ends are only as good as he is. Not very.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Again, the RW doesn't bring peace to the realm. Not only because Robb was going to effectively bring peace by defeating Wildlings and Ironborn, but also because from that point forward every war will need to be fought to death, because the enemy can't trust you to respect the most basic rules of civilization and sit down for negotiation without fear of being murdered. How does that bring peace to the realm?

People complaining that Blackfish was being selfish or whatever when refusing to yield Riverrun and not accepting Jaime's offer are missing that point: he has no reason to trust Jaime's word that he, Edmure and his men won't be murdered. He has to win or die, there's no middle ground anymore. Even going out to talk to Jaime is already a major risk.

[Gurkhal]

“It was to be an arrow, at Edmure Tully’s wedding feast. The boy was too wary in the field."

Straight from Tywins mouth that he planned for Robb to be murdered while he thought he was safe under guest right.

If I were to guess I would think Bolton is the one responisble for turning their plot into a massacre since he's the one that profits the most from all the northern lords being captured or murdered.

Could you give a page number? Because I'm pretty sure alot more was said in that chapter in regards to the Red Wedding.

[gordong11]

Umm people, he blamed tyrion for his wife's death, and not even considered for Lordship of Casterly Rock. In General, how he treats Tyrion, especially by modern standards is downright horrible. I think the fact that Tyrion is by far the brains of the family and not taken seriously by his family. I wonder what his feelings would be if he knew the truth about Joffrey, certainly wouldn't be happy.

[bbqq]

Could you give a page number? Because I'm pretty sure alot more was said in that chapter in regards to the Red Wedding.

pg. 157 in the SOS pt 2 for me, might vary in different editions though. Tywin makes it quite clear it was meant to be an arrow at the feast, and that he had a hand in the plans.

[bloodymime]

Could you give a page number? Because I'm pretty sure alot more was said in that chapter in regards to the Red Wedding.

Page 2,368, one of Tyrion's pov's in Storm of Swords in my version.

“So much for guest right.”

“The blood is on Walder Frey’s hands, not mine.”

“Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he’s suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.” “I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war."

Goes on to make more excuses and lists the payment the crown gives Frey and Bolton for their part in the plot. Yes it's a plot no matter how Tywin dislikes being known as a plotter. He gives his blessing, he does not deny promise of protection, he rewards the act. To me that degrees a large degree of responsibility. A person isn't innocent of murder just because they hire another to do their killing.

[Gurkhal]

Page 2,368, one of Tyrion's pov's in Storm of Swords in my version.

I don't know how you count pages but that wasn't even close in my book. :P

“So much for guest right.”

“The blood is on Walder Frey’s hands, not mine.”

“Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he’s suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.” “I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war."

As far as I can say Tywin gav his blessing to that lord Frey would kill the Young Separatist and that's it. An assassination and no massacre was on Tywin's hands.

Goes on to make more excuses and lists the payment the crown gives Frey and Bolton for their part in the plot. Yes it's a plot no matter how Tywin dislikes being known as a plotter. He gives his blessing, he does not deny promise of protection, he rewards the act. To me that degrees a large degree of responsibility. A person isn't innocent of murder just because they hire another to do their killing.

Oh, its a plot alright and one that saved the Riverlands from being utterly demolished by another year of war on the eve of winter. In regards to responsibility I do not agree. Tywin is not responsible for what Frey and Bolton does or else we might as well hold the Young Separatist responsible for everything that the Northmen did in the South and the West. Tywin is responsible for rewarding the break of the guest rights, nothing else as far as I can see.

In regards to the hired killer, do you think that the guy who was hired can say: He hired me, I'm innocent! The guy who hired the murdered is responsible for putting out a hit. The murderer alone is responsible for his choice of raping and torturing the target before killing him.

[bloodymime]

Ebook, Tywin knows the method planned and his talk of Robb being too well protected in the field sounds like he might have tried an assassination attempt at least once already, maybe not. Tywin knows the original plan is to kill Robb alone at the feast. "It was to be an arrow, at Edmure Tully’s wedding feast" .

Maybe it's not his personal plan but he knows what it is, endorses it and promises protection from the fallout of it and reward for it. Does the Red Wedding happen without Tywin, no. That doesn't change the part Frey or Bolton played but he's still just as responsible as those two.

[Gurkhal]

Maybe it's not his personal plan but he knows what it is, endorses it and promises protection from the fallout of it and reward for it. Does the Red Wedding happen without Tywin, no. That doesn't change the part Frey or Bolton played but he's still just as responsible as those two.

No he isn't. He wanted Robb Stark dead and gav loose instructions that they interperated in a very liberal fashion. The blame falls with a majority at Frey feet, somewhat at Bolton's and very little at Tywin's. It was only the Freys who had given the guestrights and they took the choice to act on their own without any kind of pressure or threats made toward them.

[Kittyhat]

No he isn't. He wanted Robb Stark dead and gav loose instructions that they interperated in a very liberal fashion.

So you believe that someone who hires a person to commit a criminal act is not as responsible as the hireling who carries out said act? I also question your definition of "liberal" in this context, as "an arrow at Edmure Tully's wedding feast" sounds pretty damned specific to me, and Tywin was clearly on board with that.

[bloodymime]

No he isn't. He wanted Robb Stark dead and gav loose instructions that they interperated in a very liberal fashion. The blame falls with a majority at Frey feet, somewhat at Bolton's and very little at Tywin's. It was only the Freys who had given the guestrights and they took the choice to act on their own without any kind of pressure or threats made toward them.

How do you figure that? We know from Tywin's own mouth that he knows the specific details of the Freys planning to murder Robb while under guest right and that he agrees to it because he cannot get to him in the field. He even knows that Frey meant to keep Cat as a hostage.

I agree that this isn't a plan that Tywin comes up with himself, it sounds pretty clear from the passage that Frey comes to him with it and he accepts rather than letting the Freys go back to Robb.

And that's the point that I personally consider important, the Red Wedding does not happen without Tywin's promises of protection and reward.

[Castel]

I don't see the issue here, Robb was a traitor, Tywin had him killed. B y Westerosi standards it's horrible, but thankfully all eyes are on the Freys here. From a completely neutral standpoint; what's the issue? Why does fighting someone in a war not bear the same stigma? Why is falling on someone when they're not prepared any better? Westerosi can have their own hypocritical system because it serves them well to limit the intensity of war, at least in certain sectors, but as a modern reader it smacks of hypocrisy to me. It's not like he was going to let them go without the Red Wedding, it was simply more efficient.

Tywin was an inherently self interested person, he was concerned about his house and it's power. Robb was also inherently self-interested, he refused to make peace when he could for literally no good reason, beating Tywin wouldn't bring his father back. Both used the methods they thought of to achieve their goals.

His actions against Tyrion's were the only ones that did not have a logical purpose.