Tony Soprano Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I don't know man, smuggling sounds like fun. I'm not sure I could pass up a chance to flip off those damn tax collectors and toll officials.I really like Davos and Ned as characters, but sometimes they're really stupid...Sure, smuggling would be fun. :P But Davos gave himself up knowing that he would have his fingers cut off. I get it, he's honorable and everything, but in the cases of Ned and Davos, honor made them really stupid. Ned got killed because of his honor. He knew that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were kids born from Jaime's and Cersei's incest, but the only thing he did is give them a letter of the king's last words ? Renly had the right idea, they didn't need to be killed, he could have imprisoned them and just wait for Stannis to arrive from Dragonstone. I think Stannis would have executed them afterward, but he would be the king, and the king can do as he likes.I don't know, maybe stupid is a bit of a harsh word, so...I'll say both Davos and Ned were pretty naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Indeed, the simple act of giving Tyrion his due would have avoided a lot of trouble.Except he appears to believe that Tyrion is not actually his son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serie Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I really like Davos and Ned as characters, but sometimes they're really stupid...Sure, smuggling would be fun. :P But Davos gave himself up knowing that he would have his fingers cut off. don't forget that Davos agreed to that because he wanted to ensure the future of his children. Pretty much what Tywin wants but Davos does it the "honorable" way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Speaking of stupid, Tywin's death proved he was more stupid than Ned, Davos, or basically anyone in the books. "Yeah, I'll just provoke for no reason the angry guy holding a crossbow pointed at me, this should end well"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I am not even sure if he really always was rational in his quest to maintain Lannister power and reputation. Consider Tysha. I understood that he was not happy about the marriage between a commoner and his son, even Ned Stark would not be happy about such a thing. But the most prudent thing to do for the Lannisters would have been to1. seek a divorce2. Pay Tysha off: Arrange another marriage for her or arrange her to be trained as a septa or something like thatWhat Tywin did instead was making a huge fuss about Tyrion´s marriage. The fact that he was married to a commoner seems to be an open secret in Westeros and why not? You could expect every guard that raped Tysha to talk about the whole incident. Tywin might have taught his son a "lesson" but the price was high: His son hated him so much that he was willing to break a grave taboo and kill his own father. People in Westeros secretly laugh about Tywin´s dwarf son and his marriage to a commoner.Instead of minimalizing the damage Tywin maximalized itDestroying Tyrion's reputation may have been the point. But we never hear what order things go down in. Does he give her to the barracks and then make Tyrion take her there or do they go somewhere more private? Or does he even tell the guards who she is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuaitheTheShadow Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Everyone forgets that he took Shae for himself, which just seems vindictive toward Tyrion, more so since he's supposed to die the next morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serie Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Everyone forgets that he took Shae for himself, which just seem vindictive toward Tyrion, more so since he's supposed to die the next morningand, even more, everyone forgets Tywin treated his father's paramour like s**t and blamed him for weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronicler Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Isn't it made clear that the Red Wedding is Walder's idea and Tywin just goes along with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYStars Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Basically, he's completely ruthless and amoral. He has no conscience - the conversation with Tyrion before he killed him showed that - and is the man who will win because he will fight dirty, lie, cheat, do whatever it takes, and not let a conscience slow him down.I don't even believe he does it for his family - he does it for himself, for his family name, because he wants power and respect.I'm struggling to find any endearing/softening characteristics whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronicler Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Except he appears to believe that Tyrion is not actually his son.It's interesting that he believes the woman he loved cuckolded him >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Except he appears to believe that Tyrion is not actually his son. No, he doesn't, he'd have killed Tyrion long ago if this was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliskin Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 No, he doesn't, he'd have killed Tyrion long ago if this was the case.He couldn't prove it.He told him that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartsansa Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Basically, he's completely ruthless and amoral. He has no conscience - the conversation with Tyrion before he killed him showed that - and is the man who will win because he will fight dirty, lie, cheat, do whatever it takes, and not let a conscience slow him down.I don't even believe he does it for his family - he does it for himself, for his family name, because he wants power and respect.I'm struggling to find any endearing/softening characteristics whatsoever.agreed... he seems soulless, humorless, joyless and cowardly.It's true he 'does whatever it takes' . . . to advance his own house and keep his hands clean. And this is admirable how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYStars Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 He couldn't prove it.He told him that.I'm convinced he said that just to spite Tyrion.His behaviour didn't suggest that he believed himself a cuckold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Aillard Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Well, for starters, he's monstrous to his children, especially Tyrion (but not only Tyrion). His only concern is for the advancement of and reputation of his house, which he's managed instead indirectly to nearly destroy by now thanks to screwing up his kids so badly. He was one of the masterminds behind an act that was akin to murdering a peace delegation. He arranged the brutal rape of an innocent girl just to make a point to his son, or possibly in part also because he's sick and twisted and got his rocks off on it somehow.But I mean, yeah, hey. What a peach. Totally a great guy and a real role model. :agree: Having concerns of the future of your house is completely understandable. Who wouldn't? But the house or the name is only carried by people, by him and all of his sons and daughters... So ultimately, raising good people should be the goal. That and melting ICE!!! Fine, "end" house Stark (except that he didn't, muahahaha), but melt an 400 year old sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blisscraft Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Tywin is a sociopath. As you can see from above, his list of misdeeds is grievous and long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronicler Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Tywin is a sociopath. As you can see from above, his list of misdeeds is grievous and long.What about the misdeeds of Eddard Stark?Benjen sent to the wall, or went there by himself, we will never know!Jon sent to the wall.He didn't marry Lady Dustin as would have been honourable...*and* got her husband killed in his rebellionHe cheated on his wife, the noble Catelyn Tully (at least he prays for forgiveness in Brans heart tree vision)Well, just kidding.But seriously. I don't think Tywin is a sociopath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 @ David SeligLet's not forget that the " angry guy with the crossbow " was actually his son. He didn't really expect Tyrion to shoot him. He'd been stepping on his nerves, insultinghim and provoking him all his life.Ned, on theother hand, went against the Queen Regent in thrcapital with only his bousehols guard andLittlefinger's word about the Gold Cloaks. Ned trusted the man who wanted his wife and warned him against trusting him.Tywin just thought Tyrion was too weak to do anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 His son who he let be condemned to death hours ago, that was a pretty good reason to think he'd be much more angry at him than usual. Tyrion told him straight "Don't say the word "whore" again or I'll kill you" yet Tywin did exactly this. Much more stupid than anything Ned did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodymime Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Tywin might have used more brutal men in his pillaging and plundering but that was an accepted practice of warfare. What do people think Robb was doing in the westerlands."so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they’d inflicted on the riverlands. Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun,"Maybe they're not as savage as the Mountains men or the Bloody Mummers but I would think they were closer to it than not.These will always be tactics used in warfare, we just use fancier words than pillage and plunder now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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