Heresy 11

[Uncat]

What I can't sort out is the GRRM comment that the others are not dead but inhuman, elegant, dangerous on the one hand and the other comment (by GRRM as well?) that they don't have a culture.

If they were a species of their own they would have needed to develop a culture to develop a language, weapons and so on, wouldn't they?

The only way this could work IMHO is if they were created by another species or are maybe a species with other boundaries, have another dimension?

Has anyone read Graham Hancock's Supernatural?

What I want to get at but don't know how to formulate exactly: The others are the memories from the bones of certain dead people (the bones remember, the North remembers) transformed into new beings with the help of magic and a newborn?

Coldhands is a prototype for them, like Arnold was in the 2nd Terminator movie?

Yes, that buhs me, too. It seems as if in GRRM imagination the Others/Sidhe are alive - very much like the ice lizzards and the ice dragon in The Ice Dragon.. This dumps our earlier approaches of them being frozen souls/mists. It also would meen, that Sam indeed killed one of them. But the idea of this vivid, skillful intelligent beings is very much at crosses with Martin saying that they have no cultur. How can we mend this? It also seems pretty clear from his statement, that they are not human (which I would take to exclude them being changed human, too). Once we took the "no culture" statement as a clue that the idea of changed humans is right. But what do we make of it now? Can we imagine a way of life for an intelligent species, that would not be a "culture"? I once graduaded in politics and sociology and in sociology a culture is pretty much this: the ways and traditions of a group of people

[Lummel]

They can have no culture of their own by either borrowing somebody else's or being a part of somebody else's culture. I take it to mean that there is nothing unique or distinctive (culturally) about them. For example they will probably speak either old tongue or true tongue rather than having their own language.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I am precisely the type of person that, this whole "having no culture", business would drive crazy! How can a race have such a long history with no culture? All I can recommend is reading Martin's other stories because not only are they wonderful but you can see so many ways he could write this. I have finally been reading more of them and I love it!

[Black Crow]

It clearly depends on how narrowly you define culture or rather how narrowly you interpret it. Its perfectly possible to argue that American, British and German cultures are different; that there is a distinct Afro-Caribbean culture or a Hispanic culture and so on, but would these differences be apparent to an elephant, or would the elephant regard them simply as variations in a single human culture.

If we stick with the Sidhe comparison it's obviously possible to argue that Faerie and Human cultures are different - or are they? In our own folklore they are familiar and closely intertwined, they have kings and queens and are recognisable in every way except their physical appearance. They are not human but engage with humans verbally and physically. The realm of Faerie may be different but its recognisable.

[Iceborn]

Or they might actually be malicious twisted things (or misunderstood guys) made by an intelligent creator. that fits the development without culture, think Orks of LoTR

[Lummel]

... How can a race have such a long history with no culture? ...

Think of a parasite that is dependant on its host for its culture...

[Black Crow]

Or then again GRRM simply declined to answer the question because culture is irrelevant to the story.

Do we spend hours debating the culture of the Ironborn vis a vis say the Dornish or do we accept them as they are. Yes there are "differences" but do they matter?

[Lykos]

If I recall correctly, Martin posed a counter question, like "So you think they have a culture of their own?" Or he made a similar ambiguous statement.

[Lummel]

Friends, Romans, Heretics, I think I have tracked down the almost pure unadulterated words of GRRM on this topic from a march 23rd 2012 article:

Fans of the novels are eagerly awaiting Martin’s final two instalments of the seven-part series. In particular, they are eager to learn more about the White Walkers — or The Others — a mysterious, undead race seemingly bent on humanity’s destruction.

“(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,” he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

so there we have it, they have a history but no culture - or nothing that GRRM would describe as a culture at anyrate.

[Black Crow]

Again, as I said it all depends on how you define culture and I'm very much reminded here of Herman Goering's remark that when people started talking to him about culture he reached for his revolver...

Not that I find anything else admirable about Goering, but given the lunatics and charlatans who surrounded Hitler endlessly prattling on about Aryan culture I can empathise with him on this at least.

History is important and you can argue that the Others/Sidhe appear to be a warrior culture, but given that they are not dead (or undead) I take GRRM's remark simply to mean that they don't go in much for art, literature and music.

[Uncat]

@Lummel, thank for the exact words.

@Black Crow, I guess you are right. After all it is the history that matters here, mot the culture :)

@Iceborn, seems to rule out a "created" race loke the Orks

[Lummel]

Again, as I said it all depends on how you define culture and I'm very much reminded here of Herman Goering's remark that when people started talking to him about culture he reached for his revolver...

:rofl: Oh dear! I hope that things aren't quite that bad! But yes we've only got one word to go on, one very slippy word that can have a broad range of meanings.

It gets back to the old question of how freestanding the white walkers are. If they are the wooddancers then they might not have their own culture because they are a subset of the children of the forest and a part of their culture. If they are magically transformed humans then they might not have a culture because they don't need one, for...er...magical reasons.

But since we only have the one word it looks like we can only go round and round in circles on this one until something new comes up.

[Uncat]

Naa, it's not all that bad. Wouldn't want to throw away the chamgeling idea. And the notion of the WW as a third party in thos game does make a lot of sence, We just shut not jump back to the idea of an evil force preparing to wage war on humanity

[Uncat]

Sorry, double post...

[Stark@heart]

Are they? Moving south, I mean?

Yes, the Others are coming. Hence all the animals and people moving further South to get away from them before they are turned into wrights/slaves.

Do they really want to journey below the Wall?

We won't know until they get there but it seems to be the case based on folklore/past history and possible foreshadowings. I say they do get beyond the Wall.

We've had this build up from the first book that "The Others are back. Oh No!" but nobody's paying attention because they're too busy playing the Game of Thrones.

The moral of the story is???

Blah, blah, something, something - be good to those around you because no matter how hard or how well you scheme to claim power in the end it doesn't even matter who wins, the Others will return to bite you in the ass.

You get what I'm driving at. We see the Realm of Men caught up in wars for power while a real threat /boogyman slowly creeps up behind them and Bam! Winter is Here! And you've burned and sacked and slaughter from one end of the land to the other and now you have no food, no livestock and little home of getting any even if you have the coin. Game Over. That's what you get for being assholes. Good luck surviving until the Spring.

Oh wait, Spring won't come until Winter is defeated/pushed back and Men don't have the strength or knowledge to do that anymore. Looks like the Westeros are screwed but maybe there's hope for people in the lands across the Narrow Sea.

It may be that the magical peoples of the Westeros are playing their own GoT and in the end Men don't even matter, except those with "special" blood that can be used for magic rituals. Anyway, that just sparked a thought, a little off topic but related.

If the Others/Sidne do get past the Wall, people will flee ahead of them, maybe all the way from the Vale to Bravosi? That would be a cool way to reunite the Stark sisters. :drunk:

[jon rr stark]

To me it means if they dont have a culture but do have a history then they dont have a society. Why is that because they are not around all the time but pop up every so often. Where are in between who knows impossible to say, some kind of hibernation only broken perhaps when the level of magic in the world peaks. The have a purpose, to do stuff when certain conditions arise. Like destroy humanity when they get too annoying. I'm guessing they dont throw that many good parties.

[Black Crow]

We've had this build up from the first book that "The Others are back. Oh No!" but nobody's paying attention because they're too busy playing the Game of Thrones.

Well, yes... but its such a cliche and I really do expect something better from GRRM

[jon rr stark]

Yes, the Others are coming. Hence all the animals and people moving further South to get away from them before they are turned into wrights/slaves. Do they really want to journey below the Wall? We won't know until they get there but it seems to be the case based on folklore/past history and possible foreshadowings. I say they do get beyond the Wall. We've had this build up from the first book that "The Others are back. Oh No!" but nobody's paying attention because they're too busy playing the Game of Thrones. The moral of the story is??? Blah, blah, something, something - be good to those around you because no matter how hard or how well you scheme to claim power in the end it doesn't even matter who wins, the Others will return to bite you in the ass. You get what I'm driving at. We see the Realm of Men caught up in wars for power while a real threat /boogyman slowly creeps up behind them and Bam! Winter is Here! And you've burned and sacked and slaughter from one end of the land to the other and now you have no food, no livestock and little home of getting any even if you have the coin. Game Over. That's what you get for being assholes. Good luck surviving until the Spring. Oh wait, Spring won't come until Winter is defeated/pushed back and Men don't have the strength or knowledge to do that anymore. Looks like the Westeros are screwed but maybe there's hope for people in the lands across the Narrow Sea. It may be that the magical peoples of the Westeros are playing their own GoT and in the end Men don't even matter, except those with "special" blood that can be used for magic rituals. Anyway, that just sparked a thought, a little off topic but related. If the Others/Sidne do get past the Wall, people will flee ahead of them, maybe all the way from the Vale to Bravosi? That would be a cool way to reunite the Stark sisters. :drunk:

Yea like this the Others are kinda like a natural justice. Be good or the others will get ya.

[Black Crow]

To me it means if they dont have a culture but do have a history then they dont have a society. Why is that because they are not around all the time but pop up every so often. Where are in between who knows impossible to say, some kind of hibernation only broken perhaps when the level of magic in the world peaks. The have a purpose, to do stuff when certain conditions arise. Like destroy humanity when they get too annoying. I'm guessing they dont throw that many good parties.

I'm not convinced about the sleeping under the ice business. If they are an icy version of the Sidhe as really does seem to be the case then it may be a matter of the conditions being right to come through from Faerie into the realms of men. As I mentioned before, traditionally the optimum time is at dawn or dusk and here we are moving towards night...

[jon rr stark]

I'm not convinced about the sleeping under the ice business. If they are an icy version of the Sidhe as really does seem to be the case then it may be a matter of the conditions being right to come through from Faerie into the realms of men. As I mentioned before, traditionally the optimum time is at dawn or dusk and here we are moving towards night...

Yea I can go with that. I dont realy mean they are sleeping under the ice like the wrights outside Brans cave. But i also dont think they are all living peacefully somewhere in all the time we dont see them. We have seen people come back from other realms with Dondarion and UnCat so there is precedence for an otherworld. No culture would fit in with this, as whatever they are or do it isnt something men would recognise in our world. History because we know they have strayed into out world on several occasions. Maybe they cant maintain their form in our world so they need wrights to do their work or perhaps white walkers to be their rangers. no idea realy but there is an otherworldlyness about them?