Heresy 11

[Uncat]

Yes, the Others are coming. Hence all the animals and people moving further South to get away from them before they are turned into wrights/slaves.

Do they really want to journey below the Wall?

We won't know until they get there but it seems to be the case based on folklore/past history and possible foreshadowings. I say they do get beyond the Wall.

We've had this build up from the first book that "The Others are back. Oh No!" but nobody's paying attention because they're too busy playing the Game of Thrones.

The moral of the story is???

Blah, blah, something, something - be good to those around you because no matter how hard or how well you scheme to claim power in the end it doesn't even matter who wins, the Others will return to bite you in the ass.

You get what I'm driving at. We see the Realm of Men caught up in wars for power while a real threat /boogyman slowly creeps up behind them and Bam! Winter is Here! And you've burned and sacked and slaughter from one end of the land to the other and now you have no food, no livestock and little home of getting any even if you have the coin. Game Over. That's what you get for being assholes. Good luck surviving until the Spring.

Oh wait, Spring won't come until Winter is defeated/pushed back and Men don't have the strength or knowledge to do that anymore. Looks like the Westeros are screwed but maybe there's hope for people in the lands across the Narrow Sea.

It may be that the magical peoples of the Westeros are playing their own GoT and in the end Men don't even matter, except those with "special" blood that can be used for magic rituals. Anyway, that just sparked a thought, a little off topic but related.

If the Others/Sidne do get past the Wall, people will flee ahead of them, maybe all the way from the Vale to Bravosi? That would be a cool way to reunite the Stark sisters. :drunk:

Hummm... right now I have nothing else but "that would be the usual plot". Tomorrow, I'll come up with something better, I promise :leaving:

[Stark@heart]

Yes it is the usual plot, this is a Fantasy Genre and certain things are expected to get the story from point A to point B and so forth but that doesn't mean we'll get the same old, same old from GRRM. He's already proven that with Ned and the Red Wedding and I'm sure the Others will fall in there somewhere but he doesn't have to re-invent the wheel to tell his story.

GRRM has said this is Magnum Opus ( Thronecast interview) so I don't think he'll stray too far from the formula, just give us and Fantasy fans in general, the greatest Epic Fantasy story we've ever read ( including Toliken).

[Black Crow]

Maybe they cant maintain their form in our world so they need wrights to do their work or perhaps white walkers to be their rangers. no idea realy but there is an otherworldlyness about them?

I think that's a fair point. Sam tells how they tend to turn up when its dark or in mist or falling snow etc. Its all frustratingly vague but there's a definite impression being given that they avoid direct sunlight and can only come out to play for a relatively short time, hence the use of Wights in the first place, and then what appears to be Wights wandering around without direction at other times - presumably because the Others/Sidhe who were controlling them have gone back to Faerie.

As to the otherworldliness, John Picacio's painting in the 2012 captures the Sidhe perfectly and apparently GRRM himself was very happy with this one.

[Uncat]

I am precisely the type of person that, this whole "having no culture", business would drive crazy! How can a race have such a long history with no culture? All I can recommend is reading Martin's other stories because not only are they wonderful but you can see so many ways he could write this. I have finally been reading more of them and I love it!

I guess, I'll do that to. I did read the Ice Dragon and had the same feeling as Black Crow and others, that Martin this time is really exploring an idea, that he only sketched in that novel.

[Uncat]

Think of a parasite that is dependant on its host for its culture...

And then there is that bunch of sad little tree huggers. We have always taken it as a given, that what we know of their culture is truly THEIR culture. But maybe it is the other way round. Mayby that what we view as their culture is actually a reflection of the way of the Others, because the CotF long ago came to terms with the powerful folks from the Heart of Winter and started to copy them. Just as people in the Roman Empire started to pickup on the Roman way of life until they became little romans themself.

[Uncat]

Friends, Romans, Heretics, I think I have tracked down the almost pure unadulterated words of GRRM on this topic from a march 23rd 2012 article:

so there we have it, they have a history but no culture - or nothing that GRRM would describe as a culture at anyrate.

Actually it only says that for all his intends and purposes it does not mather, how their culture looks, so he does not care to work it out. So their could be a great culture, just like the one the Ironborns have :). He just doesn't bother to imagine it (which would be the meaning of "I don't know" said by the very man who creates Westeros with all his aspects).

[alienarea]

Actually it only says that for all his intends and purposes it does not mather, how their culture looks, so he does not care to work it out. So their could be a great culture, just like the one the Ironborns have :). He just doesn't bother to imagine it (which would be the meaning of "I don't know" said by the very man who creates Westeros with all his aspects).

One could also interpret this quote as an evasive statement, i.e. GRRM knows exactly what culture they have but he won't tell yet because it would give away something.

I have asked I while in this thread but didn't get a reply: Are we sure the Others who are coming this time are the same Others that were defeated in the long night? Or could they be Others 2.0 after the Night King or plain evolution?

The idea behind it is: The CotF created the Others 1.0 to fight the First Men, things got out of hand, the Long Night happened, the Last Hero aligned with the CotF and the Others 1.0 were defeated. When the Night King took a female Other for his wife, and the Others evolved to Others 2.0. And we haven't seen them a long time because they need darkness and extreme cold with humidity (they come at night with fogs and mists). We don't know what Bran has seen in the Land of Always Winter. Maybe the Others 2.0 slowly expand South from the Land of Always Winter. When they expand, Winter is coming. And the CotF die as well. That could be why they are dwindling. The Others 2.0 kill them as well and they need Bran for reverse engineering.

[Lummel]

Actually it only says that for all his intends and purposes it does not mather, how their culture looks, so he does not care to work it out. So their could be a great culture, just like the one the Ironborns have :). He just doesn't bother to imagine it (which would be the meaning of "I don't know" said by the very man who creates Westeros with all his aspects).

Ok, Ok, lets roll the boulder back down the hill then and admit that we are back to square one! :laugh:

(I don't know, no pleasing some, grumble rumble, people, rumble grumble, search the internet for, grumble rumble, a quote, rumble grumble, and... )

[Lummel]

... Some have wondered why it's taking so long for the Ice court to "do something" since the Fire court is already in motion with Dany and her Dragons and the Red Lot. Well, having to wait for the choosers between the courts is why. Well if that’s not idiotic, then it fits nicely with Armand Garleon posted… Maybe BR can be the "house of the undying" from the winter court. Maybe, in a really twisted way, fire/summer prepares ice/winter’s chooser and ice/winter does the same the other way around. They don't have to be exactly (symmetrically) the same, but there are sure similarities:..!

It struck me zapping through the ADWD Dany and Jon pictures that the Direwolves for the Stark children are the equivalent of the Dragons for Targaryen children bookending AGOT. The relationship is the same - Dany thinks of her feeling of completeness when with Drogon in her last ADWD chapter (Dany XI if you are counting) is a very warggy feeling. The problem the targaryens have is while the starks have lost their Lady, the targaryens have lost Dany's siblings so her pack is incomplete.

It strengthens the summer court vs winter court idea for me too. I'm sure we've had an eye on the warg relationship between the targaryens and their dragons haven't we?

[Uncat]

It struck me zapping through the ADWD Dany and Jon pictures that the Direwolves for the Stark children are the equivalent of the Dragons for Targaryen children bookending AGOT. The relationship is the same - Dany thinks of her feeling of completeness when with Drogon in her last ADWD chapter (Dany XI if you are counting) is a very warggy feeling. The problem the targaryens have is while the starks have lost their Lady, the targaryens have lost Dany's siblings so her pack is incomplete.

It strengthens the summer court vs winter court idea for me too. I'm sure we've had an eye on the warg relationship between the targaryens and their dragons haven't we?

Nice thought! And yes we (or rather you did). Must have been Heresy five, I guess. I was already listening back then, but not yet posting. It peaked in Hotweaselsoups idea of the exchange of life between human embrios and the dragon embrios in the eggs. There was also the idee, that you would not need exactly to exchange a life for a dragon, when breeding them the "normal way" (i.e. including a dragon mum) but that a very close contact between egg and futur rider would have been involved.

[Lummel]

You were listening Uncat? If your smartphone reads you our posts then I take back everything I said about it - it obviously is a very smartphone. Does it give us different voices so you can tell who is posting? ;)

[alienarea]

It struck me zapping through the ADWD Dany and Jon pictures that the Direwolves for the Stark children are the equivalent of the Dragons for Targaryen children bookending AGOT. The relationship is the same - Dany thinks of her feeling of completeness when with Drogon in her last ADWD chapter (Dany XI if you are counting) is a very warggy feeling. The problem the targaryens have is while the starks have lost their Lady, the targaryens have lost Dany's siblings so her pack is incomplete. It strengthens the summer court vs winter court idea for me too. I'm sure we've had an eye on the warg relationship between the targaryens and their dragons haven't we?

Lone wolf dies, pack survives. If it is mirrored, Stark and Targaryens die because of incomplete packs. Jon and Dany fall in love with each other but kill each other regardless.

[Black Crow]

It struck me zapping through the ADWD Dany and Jon pictures that the Direwolves for the Stark children are the equivalent of the Dragons for Targaryen children bookending AGOT. The relationship is the same - Dany thinks of her feeling of completeness when with Drogon in her last ADWD chapter (Dany XI if you are counting) is a very warggy feeling. The problem the targaryens have is while the starks have lost their Lady, the targaryens have lost Dany's siblings so her pack is incomplete. It strengthens the summer court vs winter court idea for me too. I'm sure we've had an eye on the warg relationship between the targaryens and their dragons haven't we?

While I agree it does raise a slightly disturbing thought.

Danaerys Stormborn is a Targaryen with blood of the dragon etc. and according to current theory is the champion of the Summer Court

However if R+L=J then Jon is not her exact and equal opposite because he is both Stark and Targaryen.

If its his destiny to balance the twin powers, then Dany's opposite number must be a (Stark) champion of the Winter Court, who isn't Jon

[Jayce]

Could it be Bran for the Winter Court champion?

Also if R+L=J is true and he is the balance then may he end up with a Stark wife and a Targ wife, kind of like the original Targ 3 who conquered Westeros?

Maybe Dany, Jon and Arya, also isn't one of the women from the original Targ 3 a warrior Queen?

[Uncat]

While I agree it does raise a slightly disturbing thought.

Danaerys Stormborn is a Targaryen with blood of the dragon etc. and according to current theory is the champion of the Summer Court

However if R+L=J then Jon is not her exact and equal opposite because he is both Stark and Targaryen.

If its his destiny to balance the twin powers, then Dany's opposite number must be a (Stark) champion of the Winter Court, who isn't Jon

May that's the reason for his dream. He is the one caught between day and night. And Arya is the champion of ice, the ice cold harbinger of death while the Faceless Man are the very opposit of the Rholloristas. After all, when Arya arives, she was expected. So much for the crackpot of the day :drunk:

@Lummel: So say, what voice would you like to have :)

[alienarea]

While I agree it does raise a slightly disturbing thought. Danaerys Stormborn is a Targaryen with blood of the dragon etc. and according to current theory is the champion of the Summer Court However if R+L=J then Jon is not her exact and equal opposite because he is both Stark and Targaryen. If its his destiny to balance the twin powers, then Dany's opposite number must be a (Stark) champion of the Winter Court, who isn't Jon

May that's the reason for his dream. He is the one caught between day and night. And Arya is the champion of ice, the ice cold harbinger of death while the Faceless Man are the very opposit of the Rholloristas. After all, when Arya arives, she was expected. So much for the crackpot of the day :drunk: @Lummel: So say, what voice would you like to have :)

Or, for a simple solution, Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. :leaving:

[Uncat]

Or just like that. I remeber, that there once was a theory of him being Lyannas and Benjens son. Though I seem to remeber, that there were major arguments against it. Though it would balance the pure bred dragon. But who is to say, that champs are chose for their blood. Maybe it is just this asymetrie that will throw things of balance and thus end some circle rather them just fulfilling the next itteration. Jon, the improbable...

[Alarum]

Hi gang! Long time listener, first time caller.

In breathlessly trying to catch up with the thread I wanted to posit a theory while the bit of Nightfort deliberation was still in shouting distance. While reading this bit, particularly noting the abundance of cells within the edifice and the comparison to the Red Keep's dungeons, my brain was tickled with the possibility that the Nightfort actually was constructed as the seat of a king, notably the King of Winter. Further notably; a Stark King of Winter. Further still; Bran the Builder's seat.

Exhibit A: this would, in some measure, reconcile the ambiguity regarding Bran 1’s involvement in the construction of the wall, e.g. Bran constructed the Nightfort upon a harrowed weirwood and the wall gradually developed via the assumed eons of sacrifices.

Exhibit B: Throughout Nan’s tales we repeatedly (and certainly purposefully) hear of this or that “Stark of Winterfell” but never an instance of a “Stark of [anywhere else].” This suggests to me that not only is Winterfell unlikely to be the sole seat of House Stark, but there’s a strong possibility that it was not the original seat, but rather a cadet stronghold, perhaps even serving as the southern outpost of Kings’ of Winter’s realm (winter falling would imply a distinct boundary). If the Stark Kings were initially seated at the Nightfort, considering the bottom bunk of the castle was already called by the old god with the wide gob, the Starks may have very likely buried their dead in Winterfell as a kind of fortified barrow.

Exhibit C: Assuming the omission of a longhall in Whitetree was no mistake, the town’s proximity considering the breadth of an original realm of Winter would reasonably fashion it as the Nightfort’s official godswood. And how much sense would it make for the royal seat’s garden to boast the largest holy tree?

At risk of espousing circular logic, this possibility would justify:

1. Alysanne and Jaeharys’ insistence on abandoning a rivaling/imposing castle, a la Harrenhal.
   
2. The mystery surrounding the need for a Stark presence in Winterfell. Perhaps without a Lord or King Stark in Winterfell there is somewhat necromanical vacancy afforded the royal seat in Nightfort.
   

In classic deflowering fashion, it seems I may be coming off a bit overly eager, but I really wanted to get this out and exhale. There are juicy reverberations to this possibility and I feel a little Socratic analysis would provide much more supporting evidence.

[Lummel]

Just reading the entertainment weekly interview about the battle of the blackwater episode when I came across this:

Peter Brown, our sound designer, is our hero because he finally came up with the ice-cracking chatter we had in our heads when we imagined the White Walkers speaking Skroth.

What? So the white walkers have their own language called Skroth?

@Uncat if you are setting up your smartphone with voices for each of us then can I have a noble baritone like the late ( :crying: ) Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, thanks.

Anyhow interuption over...

[Black Crow]

Congratulations, Alarum, on your first Excursion.

The significance of the pointed references to Stark of Winterfell have not gone unnoticed on this thread and there's a healthy suspicion that the first Stark of Winterfell was a younger rather than an older brother of Bran Stark, the Nights King.

As to Bran the builder there is also a feeling based on GRRM's statement quoted up-thread that while Bran the Builder didn't build the Wall he must have built something to justify the name, and yes the Nightfort would be a good suggestion, especially as it guards what appears to be the original portal between the realms. The question which we keep in the backs of our twisted minds is whether Bran the Builder and Bran the Nights King are one and the same