Mothers & Daughters

[ARYa_Nym]

:eek: Really? I recall the Kindly Old Man giving her options in the beginning before starting her training and being a courtesan was one of them. Were there others? I haven't done a re-read in a while.

She wasn't offered to become one again but courtesans are brought up in her chapters. After he offers to make her one he says that she must give her all to the FM including her privates.

In AFFC her encounter with the Black Pearl was brought up. She later thought about the famous courtesans. She brought one up again in ADWD when the KM asked her what she learned. The Merling Queen had gotten a new Mermaid.

[Dragonstar]

I was going to respond that Arya is nothing like her mother - she's a stone cold killer. Realizing a split second later of course that Cat is too : )

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Oh no! That gave me the unpleasant thought of a storyline where Arya trains to become a courtesan under the guidance of the Black Pearl. And that's just what we needi in this series: Arya ending up as a sex worker!

Not a sex worker, a femme fatale. Think la femme Nikita.

I think that Arya spending some time with the Black Pearl to learn some very useful lady arts would be, well, hilarious.

[Dragonstar]

Who is the black pearl again?

[ARYa_Nym]

Who is the black pearl again?

Brusco had made it plain to her that she was never to speak to a courtesan unless she was spoken to first, but the woman had smiled at her and paid her in silver, ten times what the cockles had been worth. “Which one was this, now? The Queen o’ Cockles, was it?” “The Black Pearl,” she told them. Merry claimed the Black Pearl was the most famous courtesan of all. “She’s descended from the dragons, that one,” the woman had told Cat. “The first Black Pearl was a pirate queen. A Westerosi prince took her for a lover and got a daughter on her, who grew up to be a courtesan.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The original Black Pearl was a pirate queen and one of Aegon IV's mistresses. She had a daughter, at some time moved to Braavos, and became a courtesan. Her daughter, grand-daughter, great grand-daughter and great great grand-daughter all became courtesans known as the Black Pearl. The current Black Pearl is named Bellegere Otherys after the original one.

[Dragonstar]

That's some crazy mother daughter legacy right there. All went in to the family business just like mom

[voodooqueen126]

It's interesting because Cersei's 2 normal children-Tommen and Myrcella where the ones neglected.

Yet over loved Robert Arryn is quite crazy (completely selfish).

Yet I would question the validity of this.

http://en.wikipedia....nal_deprivation

and of course

http://violence.de/b...ky/article.html

Also I wonder what the effects of Lysa style parenting actually are? Lysa Arryn style parenting is so rare in real life that it's not very easy to study.

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/PS2010/html/Touch%20and%20Human%20Sexuality.htm

[Evamitchelle]

I was going to respond that Arya is nothing like her mother - she's a stone cold killer. Realizing a split second later of course that Cat is too : )

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Cat killed two men during the course of the books, the first purely in self-defense when she was attacked by the Mountain Clans and the second at the Red Wedding after she went completely mad. Those aren't really cold-blooded murders.

[The Taupe Grace]

I agree with everything you said... except one thing. Woman could be complete ignorant who is the father of her child.

Plus, there are mother-daughter repationship (Val-Casterson, Arya-Lady Smallwood, Sansa-Sweetrobin, Dany-Missandei...), just father-son and fatherly figure are everywhere. I think that is because there are many tropes with fatherly figures and...

Martin is a guy. I am not manhater and I don't think his male gaze are something wrong, just human. But Martin's works does have male gaze trope.

Agreed. An interesting point that I had thought about but not really considered - yes there are a few instances of female-female relationships in the book, but they are never placed centrally, or have contributions to character's thoughts, personalities or storylines. And I think it is possibly the problem of having a male author, but also more broadly, a trope in our society, media and culture that fraternal or paternal relationships are what drives people, and often the maternal ones - in the case of SweetRobin, Samwell Tarly's mother, or the influence of Cersei, seem to be portrayed negatively, as something that holds you back and prevents character development.

I don't think it's conscious or subversive on the part of GRRM - he is a male author and has been excused for much (see thread on 'Dany's breasts moved freely') but I would desire to see greater portrayal of the female characters and female roles and relationships to each other, and more acknowledgement of the maternal influences on the characters. The Bechdel test doesn't quite apply here, but it can indicate the strength of female roles and importance when critically analysing media. How often do male characters reflect on a male relationship (father, brother, friend, lover)? On a female relationship (mother, sister, friend, lover)? Now how often does a female character reflect on these same relationships in her POV? I suspect the results would be pretty imbalanced.

For a definition of what the original Bechdel test does, see http://bechdeltest.com/

[Lummel]

I don't think the maternal influences are seen as any more or less negatively than the paternal ones. But I would agree that so far there has been an absence of female friendships - although male friendships aren't exactly thick on the ground either.

Also only Randyll Tarly would see his wife's influence on his eldest son as being negative, while Randyll Tarly's influence on his son is undeniably terrible.

[The Taupe Grace]

I don't think the maternal influences are seen as any more or less negatively than the paternal ones. But I would agree that so far there has been an absence of female friendships - although male friendships aren't exactly thick on the ground either.

Also only Randyll Tarly would see his wife's influence on his eldest son as being negative, while Randyll Tarly's influence on his son is undeniably terrible.

Heh, can't argue with that one. I don't mean that all female relationships are negative - but in thinking about mother/father relations, the father-son relationships are more formative in making the characters, esp the POV characters what they are. There are some undeniably negative father-son relationships but they are far more formative and significant in many of the POVs thoughts, motivations, personality and character development. Samwell is one, Tyrion is another obvious example, Ned is often remembered as an excellent example of fatherhood to Robb, Job, even Theon that has shaped their characters - I can't think of any female relationships that are so ruminated on ('cept maybe Tysha, and she doesn't appear, she's just a footnote in his story). Similarly, Robb and his brothers have a close relationship and often think about each other fondly (even after backstabbings), but the sisterly relationships (Sansa-Arya, Catelyn-Lysa) are are tepid at best (though the sand snakes may be a minor counterexample).

Having said that, so many of the characters are orphans (or orphaned, or will be) or betrayed (there is a dearth of solid friendships in Westeros) there's hardly a strong feminist critique to be made. GRRM does a good job of writing strong female characters despite his sometimes justified accusations of 'male gaze'. More consideration of the relationships women form with each other however, is something that would further this aspect.

[jlk7e]

Of our POV female characters, several didn't really know their mothers very well or at all - Cersei, Catelyn, Brienne (and I liked the bit in the TV series where Catelyn and Brienne bond over not really knowing their mothers), Dany.

Of the others - Arya and Sansa I think have already been dealth with pretty well; their mother is definitely important in both cases, but we don't actually get to observe them with Catelyn. Asha has an interesting relationship with her mother which hasn't been dealt with in too much detail, but she seems genuinely devoted to her, and, in general, in much greater sympathy with her mother's family than her father's. We get very little sense of Arianne's relationship with her mother. Is that all the female POVs?

With male POV characters and their fathers, there's definitely more - we get Jon and Bran with Ned, Tyrion and Jaime with Tywin, Sam with Randyll (although we've not seen them together yet), Quentyn with Doran (likewise), Theon with Balon. But we also have several where the father-son relationship doesn't really arise - Ned thinks only rarely of his father; we know nothing of Davos's father, if he ever knew him; Areo, Arys, Victarion, Aeron, Barristan, and Jon Connington don't think about their fathers much or at all, although they're all fairly minor POVs so far.

[Ser Hippie]

Maege/Dacey was already mentioned, but Maege Mormont and her daughters seem to have a healthy and positive relationship (not seen much "on screen" but implied - Alysane seems to have a positive view of having a family/being a mother, at least, and it *seems* like she raised her daughters to be strong people).

[Dragonstar]

I called Cat a stone cold killer because she is now Lady Stoneheart, who goes around hanging people... I'd call her the definition of a stone cold killer

[Lummel]

Heh, can't argue with that one. I don't mean that all female relationships are negative - but in thinking about mother/father relations, the father-son relationships are more formative in making the characters, esp the POV characters what they are. There are some undeniably negative father-son relationships but they are far more formative and significant in many of the POVs thoughts, motivations, personality and character development. Samwell is one, Tyrion is another obvious example, Ned is often remembered as an excellent example of fatherhood to Robb, Job, even Theon that has shaped their characters - I can't think of any female relationships that are so ruminated on ('cept maybe Tysha, and she doesn't appear, she's just a footnote in his story). Similarly, Robb and his brothers have a close relationship and often think about each other fondly (even after backstabbings), but the sisterly relationships (Sansa-Arya, Catelyn-Lysa) are are tepid at best (though the sand snakes may be a minor counterexample).

Having said that, so many of the characters are orphans (or orphaned, or will be) or betrayed (there is a dearth of solid friendships in Westeros) there's hardly a strong feminist critique to be made. GRRM does a good job of writing strong female characters despite his sometimes justified accusations of 'male gaze'. More consideration of the relationships women form with each other however, is something that would further this aspect.

Agreed on the significance and I agree that (actual and ersatz) fathers tend to be the formative relationships for good and ill. Reading this thread I'm partially convinced by the argument in favour of Catelyn and Arya, then there is The Queen of Thrones and Margery, probably Lysa and Sweetrobin. Beyond that some significant relationships in which the mother is absent (in mind) like Asha and her Mum, but I think that's it.

Friendships are a problem. The strong social stratifications makes everything more complex - a confrontation between Brienne and Lady Stoneheart isn't the confrontation of two former friends for example but of patron and client, the bonds are of authority and obedience as much as of affection. Also thematically with so much betrayal in the air friendships have a lot of potential to come to a sour end.

[Dragonstar]

The other female friendships I can think of with a potential for betrayal I can think of are both perpetrated by the Tyrell clan (if you buy into the Tyrell conspiracy surrounding Jeoffreys death)

Cersei and Taena - pretty sure Taena was a Tyrell spy and Cersei is going to regret spilling some of her secrets to Taena

Maergery & Sansa - more benign, Maergery befriends Sansa and convinces her to come to Highgarden with them after the wedding, while knowing that they were going to use Sansa to get close to Joff and poison him

Other female "friendships" of note - Cersei and her childhood friend who heard Maggy the frog's prophecy - strongly hinted that Cersei then threw her into a well. Forget the girls name

Also, Jeyne from Winterfell - Sansas close friend who is now being posed as Arya stark

There is a strong theme of betrayal running through all these friendships

[Lummel]

I think you are too trusting and sweet for this world Dragonstar if you believed that Cersei and Taena or Margery and sansa were ever friendships. Weren't they powerplays from the start?

Melara and cersei says it all - friends are people you shove in the well if they get too uppity!

[Dragonstar]

Ha good point. That's why I did the "bunny ears" around the word friendship : )

All the female "friendships" are really power plays like you said - manipulative, untrustworthy and downright deadly

Some of the all male "friendships" aren't great either, but there are some notable exceptions that are all about loyalty:

Jon Conn & Rhaeger (or is this more about being hopelessly in love with someone)

Davos & Stannis

Jon & Sam

[lojzelote]

Maybe the cause for the lack of mother-daughter relationships is that GRRM never was a daughter or a mother? I know it sounds ridiculous, put like this, but I´ve heard that Jane Austen never wrote a scene where would be only men because she didn´t know how men act when the women leave. I know it´s kind of weak as he gives us POV of very "girly" eleven-year-old girl (Sansa) and he also wasn´t a11-year-old girl at any point of his life, but maybe he´s afraid he wouldn´t make the strong bond between mother and daughter justice as he has never experienced it himself? I think that mother-daughter must be very different from father-son.