Too many generations of Targaryens?

[Eyron]

If this was a reaction to my post, I meant that they don´t use birth control when they are at the beginning of their childbearing years because it could damage their reproductive organs. (I bet that Lysa´s numerous stillbirths and miscarriages didn´t happen due to Jon Arryn´s poor fertility.) The premise of that post was why they have children so young - well, they get married early because of the alliences, they consumate the marriage as soon as possible and they don´t use any birth control.

No, it was not a reaction to your post :) I agree, it's not too improbable that they had children that young.

It was more a reaction to the OP.

[Elaena Targaryen]

To Eleana Targaryen:

I guess I´m beaten then. ;) But really - Joanna Lannister, Rhaella Targaryen, Minisa Whent, probably Lyanna Stark, . . . I guess I have it fixed that it happens a lot because the mothers of the protagonists died in childbed and the thing about Lyanna bleeding and having a fever is brought up too often in R+L=J threads.

Lol, but Martin did say "but the levels of mortality for both infant and mother would still be frighteningly high by modern standards" so it's still a big problem, like you said. ( and I thought you would find the SSM interesting since you were thinking about these things ) Queen Rhaella's death during childbirth to a princess shows this, even if a rebellion was happening, their safety should have been paramount.

[Ran]

tze,

Oh. But the dragons are gone and the magic has dwindled in the world. If the supernatural qualities were specifically related to an affinity with dragons, not a great surprise that they're now known for other things. I mean, being not-quite-human ddoesn't really mean you're necessarily superior to other folks in all or, indeed, in any regards. It just means there are differences. Which we can plainly see in the novels.

Francis,

I should note that we don't know that Qarth is in a desert. That's the TV show that created the Garden of Bones notion. The extreme paleness is a point taken, though frankly we know nothing of Qartheen origins either, so who knows?

Brindle-skinned men (if that's not just guys who paint their bodies) is probably suggestive of something not-exactly-human, OTOH. I believe ADwD even has a suggestion that there are other races besides men, children, and giants.

It is, after all, a fantasy setting.

[Eyron]

Lojzelote and Elaena. :)

Well, the mothers died but the children have survived. Likely sometimes thanks to the maesters good care... That is all it takes for the line to continue.

[jlk7e]

People in Westeros - once they are married - don´t seem to wait with children until they are "prepared". They don´t need a reason to have children early. They just have them. I don´t think that they play on the birth control card much - if Lysa´s case is anything to go by, moon tea can be pretty risky. I don´t remember hearing about Westerosi sheep guts condom, which wouldn´t endanger the woman´s ability to bear children in future. If you want to ask why they are married so early, then it´s because their families seek alliances. And why to make the berothal too long? Why to wait until the second side finds someone better? They´re married as soon as possible - once the girl proves to be fertile. And why the girl must be fertile? To ensure the heirs for her husband. Really, imagine what the world would look like if there was no birth control (or at least that you couldn´t buy it until you´ve already had three or more children to ensure the line).

All of this applies in the real world where, as I've shown, generations were invariably longer than what we see with the Targaryens. The problem is that in basically every generation of Targaryens: 1) they get married at 15 or 16; 2) they immediately start having children; and 3) those children all survive to adulthood. Any of these things happening once is plausible, but all of them happening in every generation is highly unlikely. None of them have fertility problems or still births, none of them marry late, none of their children die in childhood.

And yes, I´m a generation off with the Stark comparison. But you said that there are "too many" generation of Targaryens, surely one generation ahead doesn´t count as "too many"?

Well, there is one extra generation, which is what I said there was for the Targaryens in this period - Jaehaerys II's generation doesn't need to exist. It is really in the 2nd century that things are particularly bad. And I wouldn't be surprised, anyway, if Martin is using generations that are too short for the Starks, too.

I suppose there isn´t any special reason why they have first child few years earlier than people in real history (except that people in this fictional world happen to have little different traditions). But hey, there is also nothing which would make the way these things work in Westeros impossible. I mean - it´s believable, isn´t it? If need be, a man can conceive a child at sixteen years, no? A girl can give birth at sixteen years, no? But well, if you need some irreputable reason - let´s say, the magic in Westeros makes people more horny and more fertile. Magic didn´t exist in the real Middle Ages, so you can´t rule this out.

This is silly. My point isn't that it's impossible, it's that it's implausible and that Martin makes this change without there being any storytelling reason for it, which suggests it's a mistake rather than a conscious choice. It doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things.

[Ran]

But you're wrong about your suppositions. You have Targaryens who had no children. You have skipped generations. You have multiple siblings inheriting one after the other because the sibling's line fails. Aegon III's two sons went nowhere. Daeron the Good's sons all failed except for the single line of Maekar I. And so on.

Instead of getting stuck on the Middle Ages, instead of needing a "storytelling reason", just imagine what factors might lead to the practice of early marriage, early consummation, and early childbirth in an otherwise-medieval-esque society. Pretty sure you can come up with any number of possibilities.

[Hear Us Roar]

With royals having a large family is beneficial.

[jlk7e]

But you're wrong about your suppositions. You have Targaryens who had no children. You have skipped generations. You have multiple siblings inheriting one after the other because the sibling's line fails. Aegon III's two sons went nowhere. Daeron the Good's sons all failed except for the single line of Maekar I. And so on.

Instead of getting stuck on the Middle Ages, instead of needing a "storytelling reason", just imagine what factors might lead to the practice of early marriage, early consummation, and early childbirth in an otherwise-medieval-esque society. Pretty sure you can come up with any number of possibilities.

The fact that Maekar was born when Daeron II was 20 or so, despite being the 4th son, seems to me to be more evidence for my point than vice versa. At any rate, of course I could do what you're suggesting. But I don't see why you have to be so dismissive of my point about storytelling choices. What I'm saying isn't that Martin needs to slavishly follow the realities of medieval western Europe. Of course he doesn't. There's tons of changes that are obviously conscious - the existence of maesters, the differing religions, the incestuous practices of the Targaryens, even the unrealistically clear and stable feudal system are obviously all conscious choices that have important implications for the story. But that doesn't mean I have to assume that every difference from the real experience of medieval Europe is a conscious decision. The length of Targaryen generations (which was notably *not* practiced in the case of the most recent generation, where Rhaegar has kids at a normal age and Dany isn't born until her parents are in their 40s) doesn't seem to be such a change.

For a comparable example - I understand that the world of ASOIAF works differently from Earth - most obviously in the weird seasons, which are obviously a conscious decision. And I'm willing to forgive the weird genetics that give you invariably dark-haired Baratheons, invariably blond Lannisters, and so forth, since that obviously fills an important story purpose. But the fact that the largest river on the continent has its source in a low-lying swamp located on a narrow isthmus - that's just a fuck-up, and I'm not going to bother trying to come up with reasons that the unique physics of the world of the books would allow such a thing to happen. It just means that Martin doesn't get physical geography very well.

The length of Targaryen generations, being certainly physically possible, isn't quite the same. But I do think it's mostly a result of either Martin not fully thinking through the chronology he'd built, or him doing so with faulty assumptions about historical generation lengths, rather than being a conscious choice to make a deviation. Within the story, I can attribute it to being a product of the Targaryens' incestuous marriages combined with a run of the dice coming out one way again and again for several generations. But I don't really believe that this is the reason why it happened.

[Horus Ex Machina]

This was inspired by Apple Martini's discussion of Summerhall and the Targaryens, but does it seem to everyone else that there's rather too many generations of Targaryens for the time available?

First, let's start with known information:

Rhaegar was born in 259. Aegon V was born in 199. That means Aegon becomes a great-grandfather at 60. If Aerys is 18 at Rhaegar's birth, he was born in 241 - so Jaehaerys is born in 220 or 221, and he's the second son. That's really tight already. Why make everyone have kids at 20, which is unusual (average generation length is usually more like 25)? It seems like there's an extra, and unnecessary, generation here, since Jaehaerys is basically useless, anyway and only reigns for three years.

Then, looking backwards, it gets even more jammed. Aegon V is a fourth son - he's born in 199. Apparently Maekar was born around 174 - so he was basically popping out a kid of year from his marriage until Aegon's birth. His eldest brother Baelor Breakspear was born in 169.

But then Baelor Breakspear's great-grandfather's elder brother Aegon III was still a child in 129 - so he has to be born in, say, 118, and Viserys II has to be born no earlier than the next year - 119 or so.

So, this time we have to get three generations in 50 years - Aegon IV has to be born around 136 or 137, and Daeron II in 152 or 153, to accommodate Breakspear's birth in 169. That's crazy short generations.

All in all, we have Viserys I born around 119 and Rhaegar in 259 - that's 140 years for 7 generations - 20 years per generation, including two people who were fourth sons and one second son. That's really short. The whole Targaryen dynasty, from the birth of Aenys I to that of Aegon "VI" encompasses some 270 years (assuming Aenys was about 25 when he succeeded to the throne in 37) - 13 generations, or, again, about 21 years per generation, which is really low.

If you look, for example, at the Plantagenet dynasty from Henry II to Richard II, you have 234 years between the birth of Henry and that of Richard - and only 7 generations! That's an average generation length of 33. The Capetian dynasty in France from the birth of Hugh Capet to that of John I is 377 years and 12 generations - 31 years per generation. The Valois from Philip VI to Charles VIII represent 176 years and 6 generations - 29 years per generation. The Habsburgs from Rudolf I to Charles V are 282 years and 8 generations - 35 years per generation. I suspect any string of actual medieval European rulers you put together will have an average generation length closer to 30 than to 20.

Why do you think we have these really low generation lengths in ASOIAF, particularly for the Targaryens?

This is really good research. I love it.

[Dimadick]

If you look, for example, at the Plantagenet dynasty from Henry II to Richard II, you have 234 years between the birth of Henry and that of Richard - and only 7 generations!

Let us take a closer look at these Plantagenets and what was going on with them.

1) Henry II. Generation 1. Born in 1133. Married Eleanor of Aquitaine in 1152, aged 19-years-old. Had 8 legitimate children between 1153 to 1166, from when he was 20 to when he was 33. 7 of the 8 children survived to adulthood. The eldest of them was born in 1155, when Henry was almost 22. Henry also had a number of illegitimate children. He died in 1189, at the age of 56.

2) Henry the Young King. Generation 2. Second son and co-ruler of Henry II. Born in 1155. Betrothed to Margaret of France in 1160, when 5-years-old. Officially married in 1172, when 17-years-old. His only known legitimate child was born prematurely in 1177 and died three days later. At the time Henry was 22. He died in 1183, at the age of 28.

3) Richard I. Generation 2. Third son of Henry II. Born in 1157. Betrothed to Alys of France by agreement in 1174, at the age of 17. Officially betrothed to the same woman in 1177, when 20-years-old. Refused to marry the woman in 1190, sighting as a reason that Alys had served as a mistress to his father. Leaving him still unwed at the age of 33. Married Berengaria of Navarre in 1191, when 34 years old. No legitimate children. He had at least one known illegitimate son. He was reputed to have had sexual partners of both sexes, but nothing concrete is known about them. He died from an arrow wound in 1199, almost 42-years-old.

4) John. Generation 2. Fifth son of Henry II. Born in 1166. Betrothed to Alice of Maurienne in 1173, when almost 7-years-old. The agreement was unsuccessful as Alice died in her late childhood. Betrothed to Isabelle (heiress) of Gloucester in 1176, when 10-years old. Officially married the woman in 1189, when he was almost 23-years-old. The marriage was annulled in 1199. John married his second wife Isabella (heiress) of Angouleme in 1200, when almost 34-years-old. A controversial second marriage, since she was already betrothed to another man. He had 5 legitimate children from his second marriage, all of them survived to adulthood. He also had several known illegitimate children. He died in 1216, two months short of his 50th birthday.

5) Henry III. Generation 3. Eldest son of John. Born in 1207. Betrothed to Yolande of Brittany c. 1226, when 19-years-old. The marriage contract was cancelled for unknown reasons. Betrothed to Eleanor of Provence in 1235, when 28-years-old. Officially married the woman in 1236, when almost 29-years-old. Had 5 legitimate children from 1239 to 1253, from when he was 32 to when he was 46. 4 of the 5 survived to adulthood. No known illegitimate children. He died in 1272, at the age of 65.

6) Edward I. Generation 4. Eldest son of Henry III. Born in 1239. Betrothed to Marie of Brabant in 1247, when 8-years-old. The marriage contract was cancelled for uncertain reasons. Married Eleanor of Castile in 1254, when 15-years-old. She died in 1290, leaving him a widower at the age of 51. After about a decade of negotiations and wars, he married Margaret of France in 1299. He was already 60-years-old. He had a total of 19 legitimate children, born between 1255 and 1306. 8 of the 19 survived to adulthood. The eldest of them was born in 1269, when Edward was 30. He died in 1307, at the age of 68.

7) Edward II. Generation 5. Fifth son of Edward I. Born in 1284. Betrothed by treaty to Margaret (heiress) of Scotland in 1290, when 6-years-old. His intended bride died months later. Betrothed to Blanche of France in 1291, when 7-years-old. The marriage contract was cancelled by 1293. Betrothed to Philippa of Flanders in 1296, at the age of 12. This marital alliance was seen as a threat by the French throne, causing a new conflict between the French King and the County of Flanders. Flanders lost this conflict and the marriage contract was cancelled in 1300. The French wanted him to marry Isabella of France, a niece of Blanche. His father was reluctant to accept the deal and negotiations lasted for about a decade. Edward II himself completed the negotiations, marrying Isabella in 1308. He was almost 24. Four legitimate children were born between 1312 to 1321, from when he was 28 to when he was 37. All four survived to adulthood. There were increasing tensions in his marriage. He was eventually deposed by his wife in January, 1327. He remained in custody until September of the same year, when he died. Probably murdered, though accounts of his death are questionable. He was 43 years old.

8) Edward III. Generation 6. Eldest son of Edward II. Born in 1312. Married (by proxy) Philippa of Hainault in October 1327, when 15 years old. A second marriage ceremony, with both of them present, took place in January, 1328. They had 13 children, born between 1330 and 1355. From when he was 18 to when he was 43. His wife died in 1369, leaving him a widower at the age of 57. He never remarried, though he maintained a mistress. He died in 1377, at the age of 65.

9) Edward, the Black Prince. Generation 7. Eldest son of Edward III. Born in 1330. Married Joan, Countess of Kent in 1361, at the age of 31. He had two legitimate sons born between 1365 and 1367, from when he was 35 to when he was 37. He also had a number of illegitimate children, all born prior to his marriage. He died in 1376, a week before his 46th birthday.

10) Richard II. Generation 8. Second son of Edward, the Black Prince. Born in 1367. Married Anne of Bohemia in 1382, at the age of 15-years-old. She died of an infectious disease in 1394, leaving him a widower at the age of 27. He married his second wife Isabella of Valois in 1396, at the age of 29. His wife was underage, almost 7-years-old, and the marriage was not consummated. He never had any known children, legitimate or otherwise. He was deposed in 1399. Remaining in custody until his death in 1400. Allegedly starved to death by his captors. He was 33-years-old.

So we have several examples where the generation seems longer because there were prolonged marriage negotiations, diplomatic games, and broken contracts. Not because the kings themselves had trouble procreating.

That's an average generation length of 33. The Capetian dynasty in France from the birth of Hugh Capet to that of John I is 377 years and 12 generations - 31 years per generation. The Valois from Philip VI to Charles VIII represent 176 years and 6 generations - 29 years per generation. The Habsburgs from Rudolf I to Charles V are 282 years and 8 generations - 35 years per generation. I suspect any string of actual medieval European rulers you put together will have an average generation length closer to 30 than to 20.

Why do you think we have these really low generation lengths in ASOIAF, particularly for the Targaryens?

[Davos' fingertip]

actually no thats not crazy. In those times people got married soon after reaching adolescence. A 16 year old is a full grown man, but he can still become a father before that age. So yeah 50 years for 3 generations is normal.

[Naathi Prince]

Targs married their kids young to ensure they had heirs. also if your going to marry someone you grew up with they are probably just going to marry you as soon as appropriate/possible. What is the point of trying to keep two betrothed teenagers who live in the same house unmarried?

[Lord Varys]

On Aerys's and Rhaella's marriage:

Don't we have to assume that Selmy was somewhat incorrect on ADwD when he stated that Aerys and Rhaella married because their father Jaehaerys 'commanded' it...?

After all, Prince Aerys and Princess Rhaella married while their grandfather Aegon V was still alive and both the King on the Iron Throne and the formal head of House Targaryen. He would be the one who brokered marriages or gave his consent when his sons/daughters/grandchildren had chosen a bride/groom.

Considering that Egg apparently did not command his own children to marry anyone I don't see how Jaehaerys would have been able to force Aerys and Rhaella into a marriage as long as Egg was still alive (that is, as long as Jaehaerys did not convince his father to command them to marry because both of them ended up believing the prophecy of the later Ghost of High Heart).

As to Daeron's II early marriage/children:

Daeron the Good was forced to marry Myriah Martell at the beginning of Baelor's rule. It was part of the peace contract between Dorne and the Targaryens after the Young Dragon's conquest had failed (and he got himself killed). Baelor apparently personally presided over this marriage in his capacity as a Septon.

Daeron was the only unmarried male Targaryen left at this time (Viserys was old and married, Baelor had no younger brothers, Aegon the Unworthy was married to Naerys, and the Dragonknight was already a member of the Kingsguard).

This marriage seems to have happened not that early, but it was perhaps one of the most important political marriages the Targaryens ever conducted (only the marriage between the first Daenerys and Prince Maron Martell later during Daeron's marriage was even more important), so it would have been done even if bride and groom had been of Sansa's and Joffrey's age (which they apparently were not).

[Rheagar Prime]

i don't see a problem just showed how strong their seed was to me