Too many generations of Targaryens?

[jlk7e]

They are teenagers.

"Having sex" is not the same thing as "producing a healthy male heir."

youa lso have to keep in mind that serveral reigns lasted only a couple of years:

Maegor the cruel(6y)

Aenys I. (6y)

Aegon II. (3y)

Bareon I. (4y)

Baelor the blessed(10y)

ViserysII. (1y)

Jaehaerys II.(3y)

That's why I was counting generations, not kings.

[Crown]

I'm having a lot of trouble to keep all those Targaryens in my mind, yesterday I find out that Egg was the Mad King's grandpa.

[Fire Eater]

Inspired by, not slavishly following.

The maesters are far more capable than medieval doctors and midwives, too.

And the Targaryens are not, in the end, exactly human. Blood of the dragon, etc.

Did GRRM speak of a legend of how the Valyrians supposedly got the "blood of the dragon"?

I'm having a lot of trouble to keep all those Targaryens in my mind, yesterday I find out that Egg was the Mad King's grandpa.

And the Mad King is Jon's grandpa.

[lojzelote]

I don´t see what the problem is. The Targaryens married very young to ensure heirs in the shortest possible time. Life in the Dark Ages used to be very violent, plagued by plagues (what a sentence! :dunce: ) and without effective medical resources) . . . it could be quite short. What´s more, the Targaryens are prone to setting themselves on fire which makes their life expectancy even lower. Better get on with it quickly. And the Targs need(ed) heirs badly because they are (were) the royal house and the succession is very important to them.

Btw, they´re not the only House who has this "problem."

In the time span from the Dunk and Egg stories to the present in ASoIaF:

Aerys I/Maegor I - Egg - Jaehaerys II - Aerys II - Rhaegar - Aegon

Beron - Edwyle - Rickard - Brandon/Ned - Robb - Robb Junior?

[Stannis' sense of humour]

The Targaryens are not like other men. The End.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And the Targaryens are not, in the end, exactly human. Blood of the dragon, etc.

I really don't believe this. Legends in their own minds.

But yeah, it looks like they just married and had kids when they were teenagers as a common thing. Not too out of the ordinary. The prevalence of incest, though, is way overstated. I think there are like six confirmed cases of incest through all 17 kings (not counting Jaehaerys I's son or Rhaenyra), and only four of those contributed to the modern line. Those two (Baelor I and Aerys I) were never even consummated.

[Milcov]

Wow. It seams Rhaegar was first one to wait to marry.

Because Daenerys wasn't around to marry. So eventually Aerys looked around for suitable ladies from the great houses.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Because Daenerys wasn't around to marry. So eventually Aerys looked around for suitable ladies from the great houses.

My point exactly.

[Ran]

Apple Martini,

Hardly anything about the Targaryen dynastic marriages has been published, but I think I can say, being privy to preliminary family trees, that there are quite a few more incestuous marriages than you're accounting for.

And I don't know, they may not have dragon blood, but they aren't exactly human. The silver-gold hair and weird purple eyes aren't natural human traits in our world, and I don't think GRRM means them to be natural human traits in the novels either. There's something odd going on with the Valyrians.

[jlk7e]

I don´t see what the problem is. The Targaryens married very young to ensure heirs in the shortest possible time. Life in the Dark Ages used to be very violent, plagued by plagues (what a sentence! :dunce: ) and without effective medical resources) . . . it could be quite short. What´s more, the Targaryens are prone to setting themselves on fire which makes their life expectancy even lower. Better get on with it quickly. And the Targs need(ed) heirs badly because they are (were) the royal house and the succession is very important to them.

Btw, they´re not the only House who has this "problem."

In the time span from the Dunk and Egg stories to the present in ASoIaF:

Aerys I/Maegor I - Egg - Jaehaerys II - Aerys II - Rhaegar - Aegon

Beron - Edwyle - Rickard - Brandon/Ned - Robb - Robb Junior?

You've just shown there's one less generation of Starks than of Targaryens. In your table, Brandon is probably younger than Rhaegar, but a generation ahead of him.

Also, "life in the dark ages is short" is a terrible point - my whole point was that in the actual "dark ages" in Europe generations were much longer. The existence of better medical science in Westeros than in medieval Europe also ought to mean that people live longer, which would make it even less urgent than in the real middle ages to have children early.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple Martini,

Hardly anything about the Targaryen dynastic marriages has been published, but I think I can say, being privy to preliminary family trees, that there are quite a few more incestuous marriages than you're accounting for.

I'm referring to the ones that contributed to the modern line. But if you have information that suggests otherwise, I'd be curious to see it.

And I don't know, they may not have dragon blood, but they aren't exactly human. The silver-gold hair and weird purple eyes aren't natural human traits in our world, and I don't think GRRM means them to be natural human traits in the novels either. There's something odd going on with the Valyrians.

And a bunch of whores in Lys also have silver hair and purple eyes, are they not human? There are a lot of genetic traits in Martin's writing that would never occur in the real world (like Baratheon black hair, for instance). That doesn't make the Targs anything more than what they are, just egotistical humans.

[Faint]

And a bunch of whores in Lys also have silver hair and purple eyes, are they not human? There are a lot of genetic traits in Martin's writing that would never occur in the real world (like Baratheon black hair, for instance). That doesn't make the Targs anything more than what they are, just egotistical humans.

Come now, this is a fantasy series. The Targaryens are not ordinary humans, much in the same way that the current generation of Starks are not ordinary humans.

Birthing dragons and warging into horse-sized wolves are not capacities available to the vast majority of the population in ASoIaF.

[Ran]

Apple,

You shall... when the World of Ice and Fire is published. It'll include the family tree.

The Lyseni fairness is specifically noted to be due to the strong Valyrian strain in Lys. Much as the Volantene, who are even purer (at least among the Old Blood).

[lojzelote]

You've just shown there's one less generation of Starks than of Targaryens. In your table, Brandon is probably younger than Rhaegar, but a generation ahead of him.

Also, "life in the dark ages is short" is a terrible point - my whole point was that in the actual "dark ages" in Europe generations were much longer. The existence of better medical science in Westeros than in medieval Europe also ought to mean that people live longer, which would make it even less urgent than in the real middle ages to have children early.

People in Westeros - once they are married - don´t seem to wait with children until they are "prepared". They don´t need a reason to have children early. They just have them. I don´t think that they play on the birth control card much - if Lysa´s case is anything to go by, moon tea can be pretty risky. I don´t remember hearing about Westerosi sheep guts condom, which wouldn´t endanger the woman´s ability to bear children in future. If you want to ask why they are married so early, then it´s because their families seek alliances. And why to make the berothal too long? Why to wait until the second side finds someone better? They´re married as soon as possible - once the girl proves to be fertile. And why the girl must be fertile? To ensure the heirs for her husband. Really, imagine what the world would look like if there was no birth control (or at least that you couldn´t buy it until you´ve already had three or more children to ensure the line).

The Westerosi seem to have a war going almost every generation and many are killed in it. Remember Rickard Karstark, who had three sons and know has one? When Harrion is free, I bet that one of the first things he´s going to do is to get married and produce children with his wife. Westeros knows plagues, too, if not that frequent - what about the Great Spring Sickness? And there seems to be some awareness about the Grey Plague, even though we didn´t hear about an actual outbreak. The maesters are there, but do they know anything about bacteria and viruses? They certainly don´t seem very well schooled in helping women who have puerperal fever. We don´t know about their skill at surgery.

And yes, I´m a generation off with the Stark comparison. But you said that there are "too many" generation of Targaryens, surely one generation ahead doesn´t count as "too many"?

I suppose there isn´t any special reason why they have first child few years earlier than people in real history (except that people in this fictional world happen to have little different traditions). But hey, there is also nothing which would make the way these things work in Westeros impossible. I mean - it´s believable, isn´t it? If need be, a man can conceive a child at sixteen years, no? A girl can give birth at sixteen years, no? But well, if you need some irreputable reason - let´s say, the magic in Westeros makes people more horny and more fertile. Magic didn´t exist in the real Middle Ages, so you can´t rule this out.

. . . sorry, if I sound way too unfriendly, but I had really baaad day.

[Elaena Targaryen]

The Westerosi seem to have a war going almost every generation and many are killed in it. Remember Rickard Karstark, who had three sons and know has one? When Harrion is free, I bet that one of the first things he´s going to do is to get married and produce children with his wife. Westeros knows plagues, too, if not that frequent - what about the Great Spring Sickness? And there seems to be some awareness about the Grey Plague, even though we didn´t hear about an actual outbreak. The maesters are there, but do they know anything about bacteria and viruses? They certainly don´t seem very well schooled in helping women who have puerperal fever. We don´t know about their skill at surgery.

I just read this SSM ( about wildling women ) before I starting reading this thread. Martin does talk about childbirth in Westeros a little bit...

Childbirth isn't quite the killer in Westeros that it was in medieval Europe in the real world, since Westeros has the maesters, who are a considerable improvement over medieval barber/surgeons... but the levels of mortality for both infant and mother would still be frighteningly high by modern standards. And the wildlings don't have maesters. Nor do they have any handy healing magics, such as we see in many other fantasy epics.

[Anna Targaryen]

wow u just reminded me looking at my family tree in the last 100 years we had 4 genration from 1900 to 1988 and if we were to get marry at the same old tradtion then there would be 5 genrations by 2002 - 2003

and i also found a great grandmother who had 12 children and she was married at the age of 12 and had the 1st at 14 and her sister too

so if the targs had 17kings in about 300 years 17.5 for each

[Eyron]

I think the maesters are a reason for more children surviving from being born of a very young mother than in medieval Europe.

Noble girls are said to mature earlier than other girls in Westeros as well, and having your first period at age 12-13 is common in real world so why is it strange if they produce a child say at age 14-15? Trying for 2-3 years with no luck and then succeeding does not sound unreasonable to me... They were healthy girls that probably had all the help available in the world they live in, to produce an heir. For most women, becoming pregnant is not hard at all and I have never heard that it is harder for younger women. Problems with becoming pregnant often appear later in life.

Elaena, crosspost :)

[lojzelote]

To Eleana Targaryen:

I guess I´m beaten then. ;) But really - Joanna Lannister, Rhaella Targaryen, Minisa Whent, probably Lyanna Stark, . . . I guess I have it fixed that it happens a lot because the mothers of the protagonists died in childbed and the thing about Lyanna bleeding and having a fever is brought up too often in R+L=J threads.

To Eaeron I:

For most women, becoming pregnant is not hard at all and I have never heard that it is harder for younger women. Problems with becoming pregnant often appear later in life.

If this was a reaction to my post, I meant that they don´t use birth control when they are at the beginning of their childbearing years because it could damage their reproductive organs. (I bet that Lysa´s numerous stillbirths and miscarriages didn´t happen due to Jon Arryn´s poor fertility.) The premise of that post was why they have children so young - well, they get married early because of the alliences, they consumate the marriage as soon as possible and they don´t use any birth control.

[tze]

The Lyseni fairness is specifically noted to be due to the strong Valyrian strain in Lys. Much as the Volantene, who are even purer (at least among the Old Blood).

I think the point being made (Apple, correct me if I'm wrong) was that these supposed markers of "superhuman-ness" aren't just found in a family of dragonriders, they're also found in thousands of residents of a city known, not for its sorcery, not for its superhuman-ness, but for its prostitutes. If these hair/eye traits really were meant to mark Valyrians as being "not fully human", then they would have to mark a huge swathe of people, including people not particularly known for being nonhumanly "gifted" or "special", as being "not fully human" as well. If the Targs aren't fully human, if their hair/eyes mark them as having not-fully-human blood . . . then the whores of Lys and literally everybody else with these physical features are also not fully human (and there appear to be quite a lot of such people, just centered in Essos, not Westeros). The implication being that, despite what the Targs/Valyrians wanted the "lesser" people to believe, those physical features don't actually have any non-human-qualities attached to them (certainly not unless we see a nonhuman species with silver/gold hair and purple eyes with whom the Valyrians could have interbred---since clearly they weren't fucking dragons---and I don't remember any such species being shown in the books).

I don´t see what the problem is. The Targaryens married very young to ensure heirs in the shortest possible time. Life in the Dark Ages used to be very violent, plagued by plagues (what a sentence! :dunce: ) and without effective medical resources) . . . it could be quite short. What´s more, the Targaryens are prone to setting themselves on fire which makes their life expectancy even lower. Better get on with it quickly. And the Targs need(ed) heirs badly because they are (were) the royal house and the succession is very important to them.

:agree:

I think the fact that the Targs had access to good medical care answers a lot of questions here, as does the fact that securing the royal succession would have been seen as being of paramount importance.

[Francis Buck]

Apple Martini,

Hardly anything about the Targaryen dynastic marriages has been published, but I think I can say, being privy to preliminary family trees, that there are quite a few more incestuous marriages than you're accounting for.

And I don't know, they may not have dragon blood, but they aren't exactly human. The silver-gold hair and weird purple eyes aren't natural human traits in our world, and I don't think GRRM means them to be natural human traits in the novels either. There's something odd going on with the Valyrians.

To be fair, there are also Ghiscari with red and black hair, brindle-skinned men from Sothyros, ultra-pale Qartheen dudes living in the middle of the desert, etc...