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David Selig

[Book Spoilers] The Whitewashing of Tyrion

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The characterisation is problem this season generally. Tyrion has just been made all round good guy, serving the wrong cause; he doesn't even seem as snarky in humour terms as he was in season 1. He has a sort of tragic romantic hero thing going on. That is going to impact the later storylines.

But then again show Shae is even more of a change. I'm not sure to be honest where they are going her character, unless the final beytrayal at the trial is going to make Tyrion's killing her seem completely and utterly justified. At least the character on the show is still watchable......unlike a young wolf and a certain nurse I can think of.

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I can see them increasing Shae's role. She could do most (all?) of the Ser Dontos role in promising an escape and eventually (Ros involved? Dontos?) delivering Sansa into Littlefinger's hands.

Her betrayal came as a bit of a surprise in the books with little mention of her while Tyrion was imprisoned. Perhaps they will really build her up as Tyrion's true love, promising escape for Sansa, before the revelations shock the audience.

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By Keep Shelly in Athens:

We can root for him, but we should also be disturbed sometimes that we're rooting for a prick.

Agree. i want to see the whole range of possibilities the Tyrion character offers. It is easy to like the HBO Tyrion better than book Tyrion. But I want to see his genius and as well his disturbed personality, not only his compassion and empathy. i WANT to follow his road to far darker areas later on, he is the most fascinating character in the books to me, I want to see the complete Tyrion.

Though maybe HBO wants to make his moral conflicts more shocking and harder to digest by starting his road into getting a darker soul more slowly, hinted at, only to be shockingly bold when it comes to the real stuff like murdering Shae and Tywin. I also think that we will get more of Tyrion's inner conflicts concerning the Sansa marriage, since the books only gave us her POV and everything discussed about it in these forums is mainly based on assumption and deduction. Dinklage as the great actor that he is would be able to make us perceive some of the conflicts that are not directly given to us in the books.

Yes I want Tyrion highlighted in his darker parts as well, I want to see his craving for love and friendship, the better or sadder parts of his sex life (we won't see his wedding night boner, won't we Mr. Dinklage? :D Guess we won't see Jaime in the bathtub either, Mr. Coster-Waldau ? :) ) I want to see his misanthropy, his disturbed emotions, his intelligence and openmindedness as well. No, , seriously, I want to see all his positive and evil aspects, only that way I can value all the possibilities yet to come of this hugely interesting literary invention.

But I have trust into the enormous possibilities of Peter Dinklage. I think the medium TV slmply has to be bolder, more flashy and less subtle to pass a message.

And the interaction between Cersei and Tyrion I like even better than in the books. When Tyrion tries to reach out to Cersei but doesn't know how after she just breaks down - this is great acting from both Dinklage and Headey, so touching. Yes, the grey characters are so much more interesting than the good guys and girls, the range of what they have to offer is so much bigger.

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How about a slippery steamy slope of slimy saturated swine secretions in front of the mud gate bogging down any soldiers who make landfall so they are simply slaughtered soaked in a sloppy cesspit. EDIT: I assumed the reference to pig shit was referencing something else, but I didn't remember what until you guys mentioned it above in this thread.

sweet

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I like TV Tyrion better. I have a hard time getting behind him in the books and I want to get behind him. I'm not sure how this characterization is going to pull off the crossbow-on-the-privy incident, since the person on the receiving end of that hasn't been portrayed (on-screen anyway) as evil enough.

i thnk they still have time to build conflict with his father, denying him Castlery Rock, condemning hime to death, basic humiliation of tyriion.

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I'm not sure to be honest where they are going her character, unless the final beytrayal at the trial is going to make Tyrion's killing her seem completely and utterly justified.

Oh man. I dont want to open up another "is Shae a bad person" debate, but I would scream at the TV if they portrayed Tyrion's killing of her as justified. The whitewashing would be complete. To avoid that, they might want to write a new scene that shows someone at court coercing her to testify against him. She can decide to sleep with Tywin if she wants; that choice doesn't deserve MURDER but it might make Shae more morally complex if she's thinking she's "on the job" the whole time. But who knows, they may decide to make her Tywins mole from the beginning.

I also think that we will get more of Tyrion's inner conflicts concerning the Sansa marriage, since the books only gave us her POV and everything discussed about it in these forums is mainly based on assumption and deduction.

I'm kind of wary about the marriage. I doubt they will show his desire to fuck Sansa, because the entire season he's been acting like nothing but a courtly gentleman toward her. His chivalry (the last word I would use to describe him) around Sansa makes me gag. ShowTyrion also doesn't seem to have BookTyrion's sexual appetites.

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I'm still not sure why that was omitted. I thought maybe Tyrion would tell Shae the whole truth this season, but that seems unlikely now. The most ruthless thing he's done this season was throw Pycelle into the dungeon.

Maybe because it's so physically implausible? I don't know, it made me shake my head while reading as well. So his 'wife' is being pillaged by a bunch of guards, and he is then able to ....perform? He's physically aroused? It's either a tale of horror or it's not, and if it's horrific then he doesn't have an erection. I think making him watch makes much more sense.

(sorry for the thread derail...yes, Tyrion's character has been whitewashed).

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By Keep Shelly in Athens: Agree. i want to see the whole range of possibilities the Tyrion character offers. It is easy to like the HBO Tyrion better than book Tyrion. But I want to see his genius and as well his disturbed personality, not only his compassion and empathy. i WANT to follow his road to far darker areas later on, he is the most fascinating character in the books to me, I want to see the complete Tyrion. Though maybe HBO wants to make his moral conflicts more shocking and harder to digest by starting his road into getting a darker soul more slowly, hinted at, only to be shockingly bold when it comes to the real stuff like murdering Shae and Tywin. I also think that we will get more of Tyrion's inner conflicts concerning the Sansa marriage, since the books only gave us her POV and everything discussed about it in these forums is mainly based on assumption and deduction. Dinklage as the great actor that he is would be able to make us perceive some of the conflicts that are not directly given to us in the books. Yes I want Tyrion highlighted in his darker parts as well, I want to see his craving for love and friendship, the better or sadder parts of his sex life (we won't see his wedding night boner, won't we Mr. Dinklage? :D Guess we won't see Jaime in the bathtub either, Mr. Coster-Waldau ? :) ) I want to see his misanthropy, his disturbed emotions, his intelligence and openmindedness as well. No, , seriously, I want to see all his positive and evil aspects, only that way I can value all the possibilities yet to come of this hugely interesting literary invention. But I have trust into the enormous possibilities of Peter Dinklage. I think the medium TV slmply has to be bolder, more flashy and less subtle to pass a message.

THIS. Absolutely. Of course it's impossible to get all of this in the midst of all else that needs to go into the show, but really, the dark side is woefully absent. Thank God for Peter Dinklage or this character would be a disaster. He's the reason Tyrion has any hint of intelligence or depth this season, although I do think that element was there in Season 1.

Oh man. I dont want to open up another "is Shae a bad person" debate, but I would scream at the TV if they portrayed Tyrion's killing of her as justified. The whitewashing would be complete. To avoid that, they might want to write a new scene that shows someone at court coercing her to testify against him. She can decide to sleep with Tywin if she wants; that choice doesn't deserve MURDER but it might make Shae more morally complex if she's thinking she's "on the job" the whole time. But who knows, they may decide to make her Tywins mole from the beginning.

I suspect we have differing opinions wrt Tyrion and/or Shae (I do think she was "on the job" the entire time with both Tyrion and Tywin) but I have to agree with you here. Her murder is important to show that dark side of Tyrion- a Tywinesque dark side ("I believe I'm you writ small") that should be out there.

I'm kind of wary about the marriage. I doubt they will show his desire to fuck Sansa, because the entire season he's been acting like nothing but a courtly gentleman toward her. His chivalry (the last word I would use to describe him) around Sansa makes me gag. ShowTyrion also doesn't seem to have BookTyrion's sexual appetites.

100% YES. :bang: Tired of getting hit over the head with the foreshadowing. And I think there should have been at least one sex scene between Tyrion/Shae as it's a vital indicator of what their relationship really is vs. what Tyrion hopes/dreams it is. Instead we get all the playing house hubby/wife setup- she even lives with him, for God's sake, as if no one would notice or discover this but Varys, esp. considering the tower of the hand seems to have been consolidated into the royal apartments. In the book he goes to her when he wants a fuck, either purely for sexual gratification or for reassurance/validity of his masculinity, and he convinces himself it all means something to her like it does for him.

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I dont have a problem with what they are doing. They still show some cruelty,sending Janos to the wall, slapping Joffery around, cutting Pycell's beard. There is no internal monologue so they have to take some of the grey out of the character, especially since is the most recognized actor on the show.

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By Keep Shelly in Athens: Agree. i want to see the whole range of possibilities the Tyrion character offers. It is easy to like the HBO Tyrion better than book Tyrion. But I want to see his genius and as well his disturbed personality, not only his compassion and empathy. i WANT to follow his road to far darker areas later on, he is the most fascinating character in the books to me, I want to see the complete Tyrion. Though maybe HBO wants to make his moral conflicts more shocking and harder to digest by starting his road into getting a darker soul more slowly, hinted at, only to be shockingly bold when it comes to the real stuff like murdering Shae and Tywin. I also think that we will get more of Tyrion's inner conflicts concerning the Sansa marriage, since the books only gave us her POV and everything discussed about it in these forums is mainly based on assumption and deduction. Dinklage as the great actor that he is would be able to make us perceive some of the conflicts that are not directly given to us in the books. Yes I want Tyrion highlighted in his darker parts as well, I want to see his craving for love and friendship, the better or sadder parts of his sex life (we won't see his wedding night boner, won't we Mr. Dinklage? :D Guess we won't see Jaime in the bathtub either, Mr. Coster-Waldau ? :) ) I want to see his misanthropy, his disturbed emotions, his intelligence and openmindedness as well. No, , seriously, I want to see all his positive and evil aspects, only that way I can value all the possibilities yet to come of this hugely interesting literary invention. But I have trust into the enormous possibilities of Peter Dinklage. I think the medium TV slmply has to be bolder, more flashy and less subtle to pass a message. And the interaction between Cersei and Tyrion I like even better than in the books. When Tyrion tries to reach out to Cersei but doesn't know how after she just breaks down - this is great acting from both Dinklage and Headey, so touching. Yes, the grey characters are so much more interesting than the good guys and girls, the range of what they have to offer is so much bigger.

Excellent post. In order to get a fully-developed characterization, we have to get the bad with the good. I don't mind Tyrion being made to look better this season. As I said, this is the book where Tyrion is at his highest point. Hand of the King, people to do his bidding, his relationship with Shae, etc. If we get the whitewashed Tyrion next season, that will be a big disappointment and would do an injustice to the character.

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Why do people have a problem with Tyrion being nothing but courteous to Sansa in the show? That's exactly how he was in the book, Tyrion always felt sorry for Sansa, and he always tried to help her.

I do agree with others in hoping they show Tyrion's desire to have sex with Sansa after they are married. Even though Tyrion feels sorry for her, in this world of political marriages, it still makes sense that he would physically want her, despite it being wrong, because she is still a very beautiful young woman. Especially so to Tyrion, considering he is no Jaime Lannister in the looks department.

I mean this in the most non perverted way, but I hope they have Tyrion and Sansa get married in season 4. I am pretty sure they are doing ASoS in two seasons, and by the time they shoot the fourth season, Sophie Turner should be old enough to do their wedding night like in the book. Her being old enough is important, to really show what Sansa went through, and if she is not old enough to do the wedding night properly, then it will be a serious injustice to Sansa's character. Just like with Dany and Drogo, the audience needs to see what Sansa has to go through, that way they can really put themselves in her shoes. That's part of the reason why Emilia Clarke was ok with going nude for her scenes with Drogo and stuff, she felt like it was important to show that. I know it might sound perverted, but I hope Sophie Turner feels the same way about it, when she comes of age, because that grittiness is part of what makes the books so good.

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Why do people have a problem with Tyrion being nothing but courteous to Sansa in the show? That's exactly how he was in the book, Tyrion always felt sorry for Sansa, and he always tried to help her. I do agree with others in hoping they show Tyrion's desire to have sex with Sansa after they are married. Even though Tyrion feels sorry for her, in this world of political marriages, it still makes sense that he would physically want her, despite it being wrong, because she is still a very beautiful young woman. Especially so to Tyrion, considering he is no Jaime Lannister in the looks department.

:agree:

But I believe the marriage will be in season 3, considering Tyrion is the new main character D&D might see a chance to bring some informations, we know only out of his inner monologues, in conversations between Sansa and him, when he tried to comfort her. The story, he always wanted a dragon etc. for example.

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Why do people have a problem with Tyrion being nothing but courteous to Sansa in the show? That's exactly how he was in the book, Tyrion always felt sorry for Sansa, and he always tried to help her.

In ACOK this was true to a large extent (he didn't want to negotiate really seriously about her release, short of getting back Jaime or Robb's total surrender, but then this was conforming to the political reality). He was always courteous to Sansa in ACOK, as shown on TV, but the one thing they added was him admiring her attitude after the beating she got from Joffrey's KG. In the books, he pitied her to some degree but he never admired her (except for the way she went about her courtesies, and this was after their marriage).

However, in ASOS, he certainly didn't help her by sneaking up on her with the marriage - he could have done way more than he did, but his dark side, his desires took over.

Of course, HBO still have plenty of time to set that up - as has been pointed out, he is far from the only character that is being white-washed to some degree (Shae herself is another - way more sympathetic than in the books) and it may be doubtful a truly grey Tyrion would be well-received by the bulk of the TV audience, even on HBO (they lack the POV structure to sympathise with his feelings and reasonings). They will still have to darken him considerably as a lead-in to his Essos wanderings. I guess Tywin will not be portrayed in a sympathetic light during the trial either, and his desire to get his son killed will be shown less ambiguously to make Tyrion's motives even more obvious.

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Maybe because it's so physically implausible? I don't know, it made me shake my head while reading as well. So his 'wife' is being pillaged by a bunch of guards, and he is then able to ....perform? He's physically aroused? It's either a tale of horror or it's not, and if it's horrific then he doesn't have an erection. I think making him watch makes much more sense. (sorry for the thread derail...yes, Tyrion's character has been whitewashed).

my feeling exactly. whenever that story comes up, it makes my blood boil and then I realize how fictional it really is.

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I'm kind of wary about the marriage. I doubt they will show his desire to fuck Sansa, because the entire season he's been acting like nothing but a courtly gentleman toward her. His chivalry (the last word I would use to describe him) around Sansa makes me gag. ShowTyrion also doesn't seem to have BookTyrion's sexual appetites.

I never thought that Tyrion wanted to fuck Sansa at any time before they were married. Tyrion knows that she is scared and all alone, and is trying to make sure that neither Cersi or Joffery mess her up anymore than they already have. That isn't to say that Tyrion doesn't find her attractive, but I never felt that he lusted after her in the books.

Now after they are married, yes, he has some desire to sleep with her. But I think it is more because he is drunk and she is now his wife, so she is kinda obligated.

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Maybe because it's so physically implausible? I don't know, it made me shake my head while reading as well. So his 'wife' is being pillaged by a bunch of guards, and he is then able to ....perform? He's physically aroused? It's either a tale of horror or it's not, and if it's horrific then he doesn't have an erection. I think making him watch makes much more sense. (sorry for the thread derail...yes, Tyrion's character has been whitewashed).
my feeling exactly. whenever that story comes up, it makes my blood boil and then I realize how fictional it really is.

I thought once he discovered she was a "whore," his attitude toward her changed and he began to treat her like one. Like, he wasn't thinking "hey you're hurting my wife," he was thinking "damn, I was tricked by this trick. It sucks, but I better do what my asshole father says!" He believes (misguidedly) that women who service men for a living can't be raped, traumatized, or wed. Anyone else have a different interpretation?

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I thought once he discovered she was a "whore," his attitude toward her changed and he began to treat her like one. Like, he wasn't thinking "hey you're hurting my wife," he was thinking "damn, I was tricked by this trick. It sucks, but I better do what my asshole father says!" He believes (misguidedly) that women who service men for a living can't be raped, traumatized, or wed. Anyone else have a different interpretation?

That's not what I got, probably because he ended up falling for Shae. I think Tyrion really loved Tyesha (sp) and doesn't have that stigma attached to whores. He was resigned to whores after that, but I think that's because he always felt awkward around women, not because of what his father did.

If you loved someone as much as Tyrion claims he did his first love, I just don't see how you can finish the rape train.

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I thought once he discovered she was a "whore," his attitude toward her changed and he began to treat her like one. Like, he wasn't thinking "hey you're hurting my wife," he was thinking "damn, I was tricked by this trick. It sucks, but I better do what my asshole father says!" He believes (misguidedly) that women who service men for a living can't be raped, traumatized, or wed. Anyone else have a different interpretation?

Even if that where the case, in that scenario I think it's highly unlikely that he would be able to join in. Even, or maybe especially, under orders from his father. People just aren't wired like that...even the Tyrion from the books. It makes more sense that he was made to watch.

As for how it played out in the book, my recollection is that the rape scene happened, and then it wasn't until much later that he was told (by Jaime I think??) that she had actually been a hired prostitute. ...I could be way off.

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In the show Tyrion is more than kind to her, in the books he is kind but he is still her Jailor and stated before the whole court (including her) that her treatment would depend on Robb bending knee. He feels a stab of pity as he says it because he knows it is cruel. She is also being beaten almost daily at this point, so it would appear that he agrees with this treatment. Afterall he is Hand of the King. He does stop one beating and then tells her that he will send her home. With the forced marriage he breaks his word to her and she has no reason to trust him.

But to be honest if they whitewash his character as they have done this season, I think we will see Tyrion behaving like a Prince towards her on the wedding night and not marrying her to become Lord of Winterfell. I also doubt he will know Tywin is planning to kill Robb so that Tyrion can have Winterfell as in the books (not that Tyrion knew the specifics), but Tywin did talk about when Robb was dead infront of him and strongly hinted a plot to remove Robb was afoot.

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They have certainly whitewashed him, as they have whitewashed Tywin, Arya, and even Cersei. On the other hand, they have also downplayed many things about him: his intellect and his vulnerability/insecurity about his physical appearance, and his sexuality. We have barely seen Tyrion with Shae this season when she was his main personal preoccupation in A Clash of Kings. Book-Tyrion would have known that the "twisted monkey little demon" referred to him, he wouldn't need to be told by Bronn (though I admit, the look full of hurt that Dinklage had at that scene was worth that small change). He wouldn't have been fumbling about old books trying to think of a magical city defense a few days before the siege, but he would have been working diligently on the chain and other defenses.

They showed him at his best early in the season, when he outplayed Pycelle, but since the last few episodes he hasn't been doing much. It's a bit disappointing. TV viewers and book readers alike are fond of Tyrion, so it appears they're making him the "cool guy" more and more, but at the cost of his character depth. Well, at least the character isn't ruined yet, but it's a bit of a pity, IMO.

With the forced marriage he breaks his word to her and she has no reason to trust him.
Not really, he offered her Lancel instead of him and she refused and said "let's get this over with".

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