Heresy 12

[Jayce]

…Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign of Bael or this maid.

This quote i find interesting. The nights watch are suppose to be independent of the realms and take no part in their dealings. But at the 'behest' of a stark they all range beyond the wall. This is another example of how the starks and the watch are intimately entwined. There are examples of the stark in winterfell coming to the rescue of the watch. The Nights king was probably a stark and lots of starks have served on the wall, again probably LC's or chief rangers like brandon. This would back up the idea of the starks being somekind of guarantor or indeed the ones who set up the wall and NW as their buffer zone. Even now the starks give full support for the NW and are the only ones who show them respect. Also yoren came to Ned in KL to report to him and it falls to the stark in winterfell to excute any NW deserters re the prologue in AGOT. But over time perhaps the full reason as to why or what their role should be is forgot. So I think the origins of the wall and the magic within go back to the starks. Also the abilities (wragging greenseeing) last of the first men etc point to links beyond the wall. Think about before the wall would not the wildlings have come under the control of the starks if the northern kingdom was as dominant as it is now.

You seem to have assumed that the bold text in the first quote means Nights Watchmen, I must admit I assumed these referred to the message carrying ravens (aren't they also referred to as black crows?)

I more I read it the more I think your assumption is the correct one though. Interesting indeed.

[DragonSpawn]

@ Black Crow - Re: Descritpions of the Others / Wights

The post you made really reinforces my opinion that the concept of the Others being the Sidhe - rather than just looking like them, is wrong... the cultural information that has been provided on the Sidhe is no doubt influential but i have to say... every time a shadow is mentioned - i think of death. In fact i would go so far as saying we really need to pull together all the quotes on Shadows that we can, to determine if it really is a metaphor for death. (i don't have the means unfortunately) ... Otherwise we are definately looking at a deus ex machina situation with having to introduce new characters and cultures for the Others... whereas them being re-incarnations of dead people means we know the characters already...

Old nan says "the shadows"... "cold dead things" ... etc... I genuinely think that the Game is played between life and death (Syrio: There is only the god of death... and what do we say to him Arya? ... not today...) ... nothing living can exist in the land of always winter... fact ... no food, etc... even the CotF must eat weirdwood paste or something... but dead people don't eat, drink or piss... they are shadows... and that's why they are incredibly powerful... possibly why it takes three fire dragons to put down one ice dragon in the story "The Ice Dragon". The advantage is always with Ice... and that's why the Starks took responsibility for stopping their dead armies from playing the game... I think the Others always come knocking when the Starks show an interest in the throne... as it means they are back in the game and i completely agree that the curtain of light is an access point to the nightlands... I think the Others return in the prologue to GoT was simply a test... how else are they going to know if the pact is being honoured...? Good men on the Wall etc... and why would that be important if the Others are evil? My assumption is that they are also good men... and heroes that have played the game before... and are returning harder and stronger... any of the NW who broke their vows (2/3rds of them at last count) are going to get massacred and raised as thralls... The Starks are probably the half-breeds of the Others which is why they are sympathetic with life and Ice... The Others most likely revere the Starks as ancient heroes and Kings of Winter... As everyone keeps pointing out the last hero was on his own by the end and would have to be massively outnumbered by the Others... so why did they all leave...? ... it would have to be a pact and an agreement.... my guess is it was love too... being half human would mean the Starks are prone to love and that may be why they decided to give up the game - There's also the symbology of having the cold dead heart in the house of the undying... and Melisandres fiery heart... maybe it's possible that there is a warm fiery heart hidden away in the castle that stands forever in the land of always Winter? Representing the exchange of love between Ice / Fire? I don't know... but if there is a quote somewhere from George that says the Others are living... i would argue what he really means is that the living soul carries on past death... the bodies are not real flesh but the souls are living... preserved in Ice.. and beautiful... the wights would be different - their souls would be sent to hell for vow-breaking / kinslaying or whatever the rules are laid out by the old gods... but their bodies preserved in Ice instead so that they can be warged... empty soldiers... who will do more good in death than they did in life...

Jon's huge shadow on the Wall just seemed like a massive foreshadowing that un-jon will be an influential character in death, not life... and since the 'cold' would keep trying to steal it's way into the womb of the Stark women - that's why the Starks have Winterfell heated... it's to protect themselves from being accessed by Ice and becoming hardcore Kings again... this may be huge speculation ... but are all Starks born in Winterfell? With the exception of Jon maybe? I would find that hard to believe... but you never know...

It would make sense if the Others were dead heroes, that the Wall would have to be manned by good men - so the Others can't touch them.... the amendment to the pact might have come later when Torrhen knelt to Aegon... "you can be a King... but there must always be a Stark in Winterfell... and we have this deal already that says there must always be good men defending the Wall..."? I would not expect the pact to be too complicated, otherwise it would be difficult to pass down from generation to generation...

Criteria:

• The Wall will not fall so long as good men defend it
  
• There must always be a Stark in Winterfell
  

Or else: Winter is coming

and finally: Dead people who break the rules can be pulled back by either Ice or Fire... Ice to create Wights.. Fire to create half-wights...

Cat Stark was pulled back... i wonder if that was because she killed Jinglebells? Guestright applies to both guest and host... even though they were all killed, maybe Cat should have left Jinglebells alone... if she had - i suspect she would end up serving Jon Snow having passed back through the curtain of light...?

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

@DragonSpawn

How would Beric fit your criteria of breaking the rules?

I don't remenber him doing anything that could be called bad/wrong.

I think that WW/R'hllor are able to make undeads of most everyone, few are the exeption and fewer still those who rise again and not their thralls.

[DragonSpawn]

@DragonSpawn

How would Beric fit your criteria of breaking the rules?

I don't remenber him doing anything that could be called bad/wrong.

I think that WW/R'hllor are able to make undeads of most everyone, few are the exeption and fewer still those who rise again and not their thralls.

Knew someone would ask about Berric :) Thought about him as i wrote it... i don't know... but it could be argued that Robert Baratheon was not the rightful king... the Targ children should have been kept alive under the Baratheon and Stark guidance... therefore being a "king's Man" and supporting RB could be argued to be treason... which is what Ned was also beheaded for... Treason may be one of the old god rules that get you sent to hell..

ETA: Another angle is that the old gods don't see time the same way we do... they can see the future as well... If only Stark Kings and Queens get Direwolves then it suggests that Arya and Sansa may also be important queens at some point... Ned killing Lady (assuming Lady is part of Sansa ) could be considered kinslaying / treason... Ned always assumed the old gods would be pissed at him for killing Lady... Berric keeping Arya captive may also be considered treason... if she later becomes queen... but it may also be necessary for Berric to capture Arya so it's a rule-breaking loop... Berric is brought back to commit a necessary treason... so it cancels itself out... especially as Berric's 7th and last resurrection takes place in front of Arya... after which the flame is passed to the next rule breaker... Cat Stark... who's body conincidentally was pulled from the river by princess Aryas Wolf - who was provided by the old gods... (this second angle makes more sense to me i think)

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

:agree: With most of it, not all.

Other questions:

Waymar. What is his wrongdoing?

Small Paul (Dunk's offspring :cool4: ). He is clearly mentally challenged, would someone like him be upheld to the same standards?

Are the NW vows only valid if made to the old gods?

[DragonSpawn]

:agree: With most of it, not all.

Other questions:

Waymar. What is his wrongdoing?

Small Paul (Dunk's offspring :cool4: ). He is clearly mentally challenged, would someone like him be upheld to the same standards?

Are the NW vows only valid if made to the old gods?

Mormont tells Jon that if every man was held accountable for oathbreaking, e.g. viting the whores in molestown... then 2/3rds of the NW would be oathbreakers... i suppose that could include Ser Waymar Royce... i don't know... the way the Others laughed when he was killed it seemed more like they found the defences of the NW a complete joke... where's their obsidian daggers and valyrian sword? where's the fire? embarrassing... just seemed like they were testing the defences... the guy that survived was described as a 'good ranger' - someone who wouldn't lie... maybe that's why he lived..?

Wasn't Small Paul involved in the plan to kill Mormont and flee the NW? Only he was more obsessed with what would happen to mormonts bird? funny that at the end of that chapter the white rangers attack? is it not? Regarding the vows made to the 7 or the olds gods i have no idea...

ETA: Just thought of something which may change the angle slightly...

What if when a 'good king' dies his soul is preserved in Ice in the land of always Winter... and he rules from the castle there... but when a King breaks the old god rules... e.g. Aerys not protecting the innocent or Robert Baratheon slapping Cersei about ("that was not kingly of me") ... that there is noone to take the place of the King in the Land of always Winter because his sucessors have been sent to hell? If that is the case then maybe that's why Rhaegar died... to take up his seat as King in TLOAW? Because his father was a dick and was going to hell... and he's now attacking the realm so that his son Jon can take his place? Maybe he found a book explaining the 'rules of the game' and realised that was why he must become a warrior? (i can't think of another reason given that he died in his first battle!) This would seriously help explain Jamies vision beneath Casterly rock... and why Jamie is also brought back as he needs to commit treason... i.e kill Jon so that he can take up his seat in the Land of always Winter... at which point Jamie would die too, but wouldn't go to hell... (funny that Bolton shoves the sword in Robbs back and says "jamie lannister send his regards" ... rather than Tywin? - a foreshadowing of Jamie and Jon?) Possible that when Jon is at his most powerful - the only way to kill him is to sneakily shove a sword in his back...?

[Jayce]

We don't know enough about Beric to say one way or the other for him.

[Jayce]

Although I like the Sidhe possibility this new one sounds great! (although I guess a lot of evidence is required still)

[Black Crow]

@ Black Crow - Re: Descritpions of the Others / Wights

The post you made really reinforces my opinion that the concept of the Others being the Sidhe - rather than just looking like them, is wrong... the cultural information that has been provided on the Sidhe is no doubt influential but i have to say... every time a shadow is mentioned - i think of death. In fact i would go so far as saying we really need to pull together all the quotes on Shadows that we can, to determine if it really is a metaphor for death.

But yet GRRM very clearly says 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

[DragonSpawn]

But yet GRRM very clearly says 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

My point is that they aren't alive either - it's just not possible... to survive in the Land of always Winter with no food? Its definately not life as we know it... (MRS GREN) as mentioned in my previous post i would argue that the soul lives or the body lives... and that's what he means... (i.e. something halfway in between what you think and what i think) :) a state of transcendence...

[Black Crow]

Well to complicate things further he has also told us that we'll learn of their history, which obviously implies that they (collectively) have a story and since tales of how King Oberon I got offed by Mad King Oberon II are hardly likely to advance the story of Westeros, it implies an ongoing interaction with Men (whether first second or otherwise).

Not dead, but different sounds far more like a version of the Sidhe than ghosts, and as to how or what they eat (if at all) remains to be seen.l

[DragonSpawn]

Well to complicate things further he has also told us that we'll learn of their history, which obviously implies that they (collectively) have a story and since tales of how King Oberon I got offed by Mad King Oberon II are hardly likely to advance the story of Westeros, it implies an ongoing interaction with Men (whether first second or otherwise).

Not dead, but different sounds far more like a version of the Sidhe than ghosts, and as to how or what they eat (if at all) remains to be seen.l

I'm not going to deny you at all - you have a far more in depth knowledge than me - but i'm a pretty good lateral thinker... and what i posted above fits if the Sidhe are sort of ghosts of the living... that go through a CotF Good / Bad filter... it helps explain...

The Game

Old God Laws

The Wall

What happened to Rhaegar

Who's leading the Others attack

What happens to Jon

The Hells

The Pacts

The NW vows

The Resurrections

The Curtain of Light

etc...

...it just works... and all taken from stuff thats been specifically mentioned on the books or on this thread... that's all i'm saying... i love the back story of the Sidhe and other folk-lore that has been added... but i guess i prefer to think of George being mostly original... rather than taking a comment about the Sidhe which is purely as a visual reference, as guidance for the whole story...

[Lummel]

...Old nan says "the shadows"... "cold dead things" ... etc... I genuinely think that the Game is played between life and death (Syrio: There is only the god of death... and what do we say to him Arya? ... not today...) ... nothing living can exist in the land of always winter... fact ... no food, etc... even the CotF must eat weirdwood paste or something...

The Syrio line is from the TV show, not the books. The children of the forest seem to be living off rat stew and barley rather than weirwood paste. Clearly the white walkers are not creatures like us, adapted for an ultra low temperature environment I've guessed, but they do seem to be alive because they can be killed, they certainly are something more than just being dead - the wights are just dead. Perhaps the white walkers are magical and don't need to eat, or maybe they live off other food sources alien to warm blooded life :dunno: .

[DragonSpawn]

The Syrio line is from the TV show, not the books.

... I know the line is from the show... they know stuff i don't though... :)

Jamie's dream is below - i've highlighted all the bits that suggest the Others are actually dead people for your perusal...

Jaime’s Dream:

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole.

He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?”

They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself.Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?”

“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

“Sister, why has Father brought us here?”

“Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”

The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

“Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now.

“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. “I mislike this place.”

“I’m not fond of it myself.” Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. “My feet are wet.”

“We could go back the way they brought us. If you climbed on my shoulders you’d have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth.”

Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.

“Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm. “Something comes.” Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. “There.”

He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .

“A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.”

“Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.

“Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.”

Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.”

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”

“He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

“No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!”

Heart pounding, he jerked awake,

[Lummel]

But DragonSpawn...what's the connection between the white walkers and Jaime's dream?

[Black Crow]

I'm with Lummel and I think, with respect, that you're over-engineering a solution when the question can more sensibly be answered by equating the Others to the Sidhe. I also have to point out that you're confusing two different things in that Wights include Beric and Cat and are unquestionably corporeal, having been magically awakened from the dead by the White Walkers and the Red Priests, who are clearly different.

Moreover whilst there's considerable uncertainty as to exactly who Coldhands is working for - probably the Children, although he has "a cold smell" - the White Lot and the Red Lot are clearly the protagonists in a struggle in which the Children are sitting nervously on the sideline rather than manipulating things, far less deciding which good boys go to heaven and which become...

[DragonSpawn]

But DragonSpawn...what's the connection between the white walkers and Jaime's dream?

That Jaime's dream is the only account we have of an understandable conversation with the White Walkers... Thats my assumption... Im going by what George has already given us in black and white to avoid any deus ex machina... With two books left i cant image there is much more to it... The 12 dark figures as i suggested a couple of pages back are the gaurdians of the 12 hells... The 12 companions of the last hero... Who i think is either Jaime or Brienne... Maybe Jaime has broken all 12 of the old god laws? But for good reason... I would be interested to know what people think the 12 laws of the game are... A King hitting a Queen seems to be one... But im not sure... RB struck Cersei ... Then a Boar (old gods maybe?) killed him...

[Eyron]

I don't know if you have seen it already but in the comic book the Other look like this.

It reminded me too of how the ghosts in Jaime's dream appeared.

They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders...

And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen...

And of course the dead pale horses.

Not that the description of Jaime's ghosts is completely the same, but it reminded me of that picture when I read it. The artist made many drawings of the Others and this one is the one that GRRM agreed to.

[Lummel]

There are seven hells in the faith of the seven (reasonably enough) I haven't heard of any twelve hells before...Nor have we any sign of twelve commandments of the old gods (...the Lord shalt sleep with a woman on her first married night, Thou shalt swear thy oath before the weirwood which is blessed beyond all other trees, thou shalt not violate guest right...)

and what are the twelve laws of the game, where does this come from? I'm not sure that things are that legalistic...

Switching things round you are requiring quite a bit to be invented in the last two books in order to solve the puzzle in this way I think.

[Lummel]

I don't know if you have seen it already but in the comic book the Other look like this...

fancy haircut...frost effect styling I see :laugh:

ok I see the potential crossover with the dead in Jaime's dream there...although if they are armoured in snow I remember reading about a Snow who was armoured in black ice...