Heresy 12

[alienarea]

Maybe we need to take a step or two back with the Others.

We know they are not dead. We know the have flesh and bones that melt when hit with obsidian. We know they have longswords made of an unknown material and can ride dead animals. We know they speak in a strange tongue that sounds like crackling ice. We know they come at night with mists and snow. We know they take Craster's boys.

We do not know what they eat and drink, how they live, about their women, children, society and so on.

The White Walkers we have seen so far were all male, in combat mode.

If you had two glimpses on lets say Navy Seals in action, could you tell something about their women, children, society?

I want to explain a little bit more and couldn't do that on the smartphone.

I'd like to challenge the connection between White Walkers and night, snow and mists. Given my Navy Seals example above, Navy Seals probably prefer to get a job done under cover of a moonless night, but they don't require it. So the White Walker connection to night, snow and mists doesn't necessarily have to be must. Why is this important? If the White Walkers were limited to night, snow and mists, they can hardly be a living species like humans and CotF but are more likely something like Sidhe from other dimensions.

The next thing worth exploring is their armor. The White Walkers have stealthy armor like the Wood Dancers of the CotF and longswords like the knights (did the First Men have longswords as well?). They also seem to have a knightly codex, given the one to one fight with Royce. That points to a CotF-human-hybrid origin.

Very interesting is the possible distinction between First Men and Starks that was hinted at by Lummel in the Halfhand quote. Not sure what to make of it. Maybe a kind of Faustian pact between Bran the Builder ('Your monster, Brandon Stark') and the CotF, selling the souls of future Starks? That would explain the long line of Starks and the 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell'. Following this train of thought, the White Walkers were Stark souls in a new body (therefor the longswords?).

Making friends with the R+L=J camp again ... Maybe Lyanna learned about this from Rhaegar (bonus points: it was in the book Roose burned at Harrenhal) and asked Ned to burn her so she couldn't become an female Other?

Finally, unrelated to all of the above: I wonder if there is a connection between White Walkers and weirwoods. The idea is the greendreamer merges with the weirwood, and he fades (if there is need?) he becomes a wood dancer. Then the First Men and the hammer 'happen'. Weirwoods are burned and axed, and because of the hammer we get ice dancers (=White Walkers. That would support a connection to snow and mists and cold.) But, if the ice dancers win the conflict, the CotF are doomed as well because it is to cold for them to live. So they make a pact with Bran the builder. Build a wall, don't kill any more weirwoods, and we keep the WW at bay (what did the CotF have to for it?). The numbers of White Walkers and remaining weirwoods could roughly match?

Last, the Stark sigil. Winter is coming with a grey direwolf. Grey Wind! Did the red wedding and the mutilation of Robb and Grey Wind an irreversible escalation? Or do we simply need to get the direwolves north of the wall to stop it?

[DragonSpawn]

@ Uncat

I know... i'm way too hung up on "The Game"! :)

Can't help it ... the first book being called "A Game of Thrones" has me hooked on it... especially as it's "Throne(s)" - Plural...

The attitude of people in Westeros towards the game doesn't help me either... and the Fire / Valyrian dagger being used to assassinate Bran is a mystery i'm still not satisfied has been fully unravelled.. but that's just me :)

[Uncat]

@Dragonspawn

Lost my thoughts... The real reason, why I initially posted your post was this:

I really liked the question, why King Who Kneelt, really did it. True, the fields of fire and Harrenhall showed how devastating a wappon dragons are. But Dorne did not bother and (with a hughe blood toll, I imagine) got away with it for a long time. The wast and empty North would have had that possibility. Did he see it as the wiser move regard to save what he had including the life of his people? Or was it, that he just wanted to be left alone, what the Dragon Kings pretty much did most of the time. In the North the Starks stayed kings, no mather what people called them elsewhere.

[alienarea]

One more thought looking at DragonSpawn's signature and the graphics from the comic.

Could the sword Dawn be a replica of the sword of an Other? Also the name of the first conflict between humans and Others: Battle for the Dawn

[DragonSpawn]

@ Uncat & Alienarea

I think the First men were called the first men because they were the first men to play the game... according to Dothraki they were the first men but i don't really see them as players... or maybe when the CotF broke the lands between the two continents that put a stop to their game... or maybe that was a deal as part of the first pact... it's confuzzling...

The battle for the dawn i thought was the first round of the game... now being finished off... the terms of the pacts are critical though... i see them as exchanges of power... Starks won... a pact was made, they remained Kings but locked their armies away... later another amendment to the pact where power was passed to the Iron Throne was made... but this thread has tackled a much more in depth view of what the pacts contained... which is where i differ... i like to keep things simple... and was hoping that George would think the same given that the only way to pass down the details of the Pact are through songs, cave drawings and house words... e.g. Good men on the Wall, a Stark in Winterfell and Winter is coming... that sorta thing... but that's just me...

Torrhen is a complex one... again the contents of the pact i'm sure will be revealed later by Bran given that it was made on the Isle of Faces so there is a Weirwood record of it... it think it signalled the exchange of power to the (post-doom) Targaryens... and was probably to protect the Northerners too... but as pointed out - i'm very "game focused" ... so i may have completely mis-interpreted everything ;)

[Jayce]

Hmm, thinking of the First men ... and the Starks comment.

Is it possible that to most north of the wall (including rangers like Qhorin) First men are seen to reference Wildlings and not generally those northerners south of the wall, hence him specifying "and the Starks", so for example it translates to "those north of the wall ... and the Starks" or similar?

Also may Qhorin of added the "and the Starks" comment to hammer it home to Jon that this has something to do with him (being a Stark) in some way?

Just thinking of other possibilities to the comment then implying the Starks are something "extra" to the other northerners (those south of the wall anyway).

[DragonSpawn]

The next thing worth exploring is their armor. The White Walkers have stealthy armor like the Wood Dancers of the CotF and longswords like the knights (did the First Men have longswords as well?). They also seem to have a knightly codex, given the one to one fight with Royce. That points to a CotF-human-hybrid origin.

Quick Q: Can you remember if Royce's sword broke? I'm having de ja vu with Berric and the Hound...

[alienarea]

Quick Q: Can you remember if Royce's sword broke? I'm having de ja vu with Berric and the Hound...

snip

In the book, Royce's sword gets shattered, but not with the first blow. It accumulates frost until it is covered white, than gets shattered.

[Uncat]

@ Uncat & Alienarea

I think the First men were called the first men because they were the first men to play the game... according to Dothraki they were the first men but i don't really see them as players... or maybe when the CotF broke the lands between the two continents that put a stop to their game... or maybe that was a deal as part of the first pact... it's confuzzling...

The First Man were the first man in Westeros. Before them there where only Giants, Children and the Others but no man. Then first came the First Man, then came the second man which gave themselfes the name of Andals. Later came a lot of other men and women like the Ryoinnare and so on. Up to now there was no hint of a deeper meening.

[DragonSpawn]

The First Man were the first man in Westeros. Before them there Giants, Children and the Others but no man. Then first came the First Man, then came the second man which gave themselfes the name of Andals. Later came a lot of ather men and wo en like the Ryoinnare and so on. Up to now there was no hint of a deeper meening.

:) followed the suggestion and snipped the trials by 7 stuff... Ill save that for another day. I was trying to remember the story about how the first man and horse rose from the lake by the mother of mountains... But i know what you are saying... Do u reckon there is any cross over between the others vs royce and berric vs hound?

[Uncat]

Hound vs. Berric: Firesword broke before normal sword. Berric concludes, that R'hollor still has plans for the Hound

Other vs. Rhoyce: Normal sword broke before crystal/ice sword. No conclusions yet, but "to darn cold for a steel blade" and that the Other's sword somehow emenates that cold.

[DragonSpawn]

Hound vs. Berric: Firesword broke before normal sword. Berric concludes, that R'hollor still has plans for the Hound

Other vs. Rhoyce: Normal sword broke before crystal/ice sword. No conclusions yet, but "to darn cold for a steel blade" and that the Other's sword somehow emenates that cold.

I want a cool Ice sword like that... sounds awesome! :) ... maybe Royce had no further purpose? Would be funny if that was the real sword "Ice" - (when Cat talks about where Eddards sword get's it's name from) ... and that it was a sword used for 'trials by ice' and has been right under our noses the whole time wielded by some ancient Stark from the dawn age...

[Uncat]

I want a cool Ice sword like that... sounds awesome! :) ... maybe Royce had no further purpose? Would be funny if that was the real sword "Ice" - (when Cat talks about where Eddards sword get's it's name from) ... and that it was a sword used for 'trials by ice' and has been right under our noses the whole time wielded by some ancient Stark from the dawn age...

Can't rember (trouble of being a fire wight, I guess ;)) When did Cat tell the reason for Ice's name? What was it?

[DragonSpawn]

Can't rember (trouble of being a fire wight, I guess ;)) When did Cat tell the reason for Ice's name? What was it?

Ha! Annoyingly i think it was her POV and it only said something like "she recalled the legend of the sword Ice from the age of heroes from where the sword took it's name" or something equally vague... hate when George does that! :D

[Lummel]

I don't think she does. She notes, I think in Catelyn I AGOT, when she sees The Ned cleaning Ice that that particular sword has been in the family for ...(i can't remember but hundreds of years) and it was a replacement for an earlier sword called Ice.

But we've speculated before that the original Ice might have been an Other's sword, it would seem an appropriate weapon for the King of Winter to wield. Which takes me back to Eira's quote yesterday "the gods of the First Men...and of the Starks" and theorising about what will happen next to Jon...maybe he will arise not as UnJon but as the King of Winter, part man and part Other, glorious but cold?

[DragonSpawn]

Sorry Lummel - beat you to it! ;) i tried once discussing whether the Valyrian sword Ice was presented to Torrhen in exchange for the Crown of Winter... as the timing may have been aproximately right... but got shot down quite heavily... as it was pointed out that swords like Longclaw had been around before Aegon da Conker

[Jayce]

Which takes me back to Eira's quote yesterday "the gods of the First Men...and of the Starks"

Any thoughts on this though?

Is it possible that to most north of the wall (including rangers like Qhorin) First men are seen to reference Wildlings and not generally those northerners south of the wall, hence him specifying "and the Starks", so for example it translates to "those north of the wall ... and the Starks" or similar?

Also may Qhorin of added the "and the Starks" comment to hammer it home to Jon that this has something to do with him (being a Stark) in some way?

[Lummel]

Sorry Lummel - beat you to it! ;) i tried once discussing whether the Valyrian sword Ice was presented to Torrhen in exchange for the Crown of Winter... as the timing may have been aproximately right... but got shot down quite heavily... as it was pointed out that swords like Longclaw had been around before Aegon da Conker

Ah, I remember shooting at you then. Good times.

Any thoughts on this though?

The first part would be a totally unique useage. Everybody always uses First Men to include Boltons, Blackwoods, Daynes, Mormonts etc. So I don't see that as likely.

"and the Starks" to indicate something particularly to do with Jon - yes for sure, but what precisely? And lets remember Qhorin and Company's reaction to Jon's wolf dream...I think this was the kind of thing they expected of him, they are not surprised that he's a warg, nor outraged. It's a fact and they accept it as such.

The Starks are well known on the Wall, the watch has dealings with Wildlings - including wargs as we know from the ADWD prologue. Do they also see wargs as not First Men but something more and particularly connected to the old gods?

[Black Crow]

"the gods of the First Men...and of the Starks"

I think its to do with the Wall. North of it there are Wildlings, such as Craster (I find it very hard to believe that he was unique) who give up their sons to the Cold Gods (as Gilly referred to them), while south of the Wall only the Starks did so, keeping to that putative second Pact; the one settling the land and the lost kingdoms north of the wall as part of the realm of Winter.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

About the sword (first Ice) we discussed it at some length here:

http://asoiaf.wester...__fromsearch__1

And I made a summary,here:

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3212723

I think that first sword was really important.

A unrelated question.

Why the red lot (Fire/Summer Sidhe) powers have weakned at High Hearth and not on the Wall?

I ask because it is strange that Weirdwoods (CoTF) can block R'hllor but the Wall seems to increase it.

More so that when Jon is on one side and Bran or Ghost on the other he can not feel them, but Mel can see Bran and Bloodraven in her fires even being on the oposite of the Wall.

Could the Wall be the work of the red lot and not CotF/WW?