Heresy 12

[Uncat]

Sorry Lummel - beat you to it! ;) i tried once discussing whether the Valyrian sword Ice was presented to Torrhen in exchange for the Crown of Winter... as the timing may have been aproximately right... but got shot down quite heavily... as it was pointed out that swords like Longclaw had been around before Aegon da Conker

I remeber that shoot out, too. But back then it was about all Valyrian family swords being exchange swords. Yet Ice alone might be a different thing. GRRM takes the time to tell us about the exchange. So there might be something to it.

Quick crackpot based on Black Crows idea of the Lord of Winterfell betraying his brother, the King of Winter. If the latter managed to take the original ice with him (down to hell or just beyond the Wall, I don't know), it would be just the thing to do for the newly acclaimed, "modern" King in the North: to get himself a new, "modern" Ice. And why not one made of the only steel, the Others were said to fear.

[Uncat]

About the sword (first Ice) we discussed it at some length here:

http://asoiaf.wester...__fromsearch__1

And I made a summary,here:

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3212723

I think that first sword was really important.

A unrelated question.

Why the red lot (Fire/Summer Sidhe) powers have weakned at High Hearth and not on the Wall?

I ask because it is strange that Weirdwoods (CoTF) can block R'hllor but the Wall seems to increase it.

More so that when Jon is on one side and Bran or Ghost on the other he can not feel them, but Mel can see Bran and Bloodraven in her fires even being on the oposite of the Wall.

Could the Wall be the work of the red lot and not CotF/WW?

Quick shot:

Weirwood - earth magic - bad for red and blue lots alike (the Weirwoods seem be belived to offer protection from the WW, too)

Wall - Sidhe magic - good for both red and blue lots, who are connected to the Sidhe

[Lummel]

...Quick crackpot based on Black Crows idea of the Lord of Winterfell betraying his brother, the King of Winter. If the latter managed to take the original ice with him (down to hell or just beyond the Wall, I don't know), it would be just the thing to do for the newly acclaimed, "modern" King in the North: to get himself a new, "modern" Ice. And why not one made of the only steel, the Others were said to fear.

Nice but no Ice. The valyrian steel version isn't old enough - it has been in the family for hundreds of years not thousands.

[PSHorton]

I think that GRRM has gone to great lengths to show us that the Others are alive. They are a seperate race that controls the dead, but are not themselves dead. As to their society, I assume that they are a lot like the CotF, in that they have super long lives but few children. Also, we may have already seen female Others. They could be a very androgenous looking race (similar to angels) with women who go out and fight too.

If they are in fact similar to the children, this would explain why they bring Craster's boys into the fold (they don't have lots of children)

[PSHorton]

@ Uncat

I know... i'm way too hung up on "The Game"! :)

Can't help it ... the first book being called "A Game of Thrones" has me hooked on it... especially as it's "Throne(s)" - Plural...

The attitude of people in Westeros towards the game doesn't help me either... and the Fire / Valyrian dagger being used to assassinate Bran is a mystery i'm still not satisfied has been fully unravelled.. but that's just me :)

I believe "The Game," is just a figure of speech. George doesn't want his medieval people to say "politics," or the "struggle for power." It's similar to Robert Jordan's Daes-Dhaemar (sp), which means The Great Game in The Wheel of Time series.

[PSHorton]

^ Another example is "A Song of Ice and Fire." This symbolizes a dualistic strugggle. Why not just call it, "The Battle Between Ice and Fire," or "The War of Ice and Fire?" Because in medieval times great deeds were recorded in songs and because it sounds cooler and more archaic then the names I proposed. (Obviously the title is taken from a conversation where Rhaegar and his wife are talking about songs, but I think the point is still valid.)

[Uncat]

Nice but no Ice. The valyrian steel version isn't old enough - it has been in the family for hundreds of years not thousands.

Confusion about the date of the Night's King incident? ... oh, ok, you win.

[Lummel]

^ Another example is "A Song of Ice and Fire." This symbolizes a dualistic strugggle. Why not just call it, "The Battle Between Ice and Fire," or "The War of Ice and Fire?" Because in medieval times great deeds were recorded in songs and because it sounds cooler and more archaic then the names I proposed. (Obviously the title is taken from a conversation where Rhaegar and his wife are talking about songs, but I think the point is still valid.)

But does it?

I think it's chosen to be more ambiguous than that. Of course it could be about a war, or just mean a story, in either case a song has distinct properties. It can be sung by multiple voices. It can be harmonious, or it can be discordant and have counterpoints. It has a clear beginning and an end with the expectation that everything will be resolved harmoniously at the end.

@Uncat. :)

[Black Crow]

:agree:

I think it denotes a far more epic, noble struggle than say the War of the Ninepenny Kings - and one that will ultimately require heroic figures to match.

[Black Crow]

Nice but no Ice. The valyrian steel version isn't old enough - it has been in the family for hundreds of years not thousands.

Might be though if the Nights King business (and the Night that Ended battle) only took place a thousand years ago in the wake of the Andal invasion.

[DragonSpawn]

I believe "The Game," is just a figure of speech. George doesn't want his medieval people to say "politics," or the "struggle for power." It's similar to Robert Jordan's Daes-Dhaemar (sp), which means The Great Game in The Wheel of Time series.

Im still going to go with a game though ;) sorry, its my thing... Cyvasse is a popular game for a reason... Seems to be played more in the free cities... But that might just be because in Westeros it was being played for real so noone had the time...

Some crazy lateral thinking again... But if the king in the north / king of winter (Bran for the time being) can manipulate the cold weather... (bit speculative but someone / thing seems to be influencing the weather) Could Bran just make his own sword Ice?

A possible scenario could be: lightbringer breaks ... Bran repairs it using ice...

[Orrin Storm]

Ok, I'm noticing a fair bit of time line issues. I've recently studied up on the timeline, so I know all the dates and the approximate times for everything to occur, but there seems to be a difference in the time line George gives and the time line used on the Heresy threads, anyone care to help me out on that?

Also, responding to lots of stuff with not particular quotes since I just read five pages and took notes while I read them.

1) The magic used to revive is Drogo is Blood magic. It isn't Ice/Other or Fire/R'hllor magic. I'm thinking that this means that blood or people aren't as strong as the forces that the Old Gods or R'hllor commands. I think this is why Drogo doesn't have "life" in his life. Blood is too weak.

2) On the Hells: I think it's to much Dante's Inferno to focus on them. I don't see the connection of hells to the plot since they have more to do with the Seven then any other god/s, and the Seven haven't done anything. They seem to be of little importance.

3) On the Seven: we seem to discuss the magic a lot, but not the "Gods" behind it. Of all the Gods it seems that the only ones that really "exist" are: Old Gods, R'hllor, and the Many-Faced God. The Drowned God has some scraps of proof, but the Seven and the Mother of Mountains don't seem to have any founding. I've always wondered if the religion of the Seven isn't a false one made by the maesters to control the Andal warriors. Anyone one to challange with proof of their existance? My only theory concerning the Seven is that when Aegon got the "blessing" from the High Septon in Oldtown that that solidified the Targaryens as the rightful rulers of Westeros and it's why the other kings are dying when they hit the Iron Throne.

Also, I find it interesting that Catelyn says that Ice is a First Men name for their sword, that it's carried down, since the first men didn't speak Common, why would Ice be used to name a weapons since Ice is an Andal Common word? Just wondering if the word Ice isn't in the original Andal vocabulary and is a First men/ Winter concept.

As for the physical connection of the Others to the Starks here is Jon:

Slender...dark...graceful and quick...

And the Others:

A shadow...tall...gaunt...pale...silent...graceful...lightning quick...light as snow on the wind

It seems like Jon has many of the qualities examined by the Watchmen from the Prologue of AGOT and Sam from ASOS.

I know I picked out more that isn't related to Jon, but these other traits are found in Arya, quiet as a shadow, quick as a snake, light as a feather, etc...

And as we can all agree who has the "Stark" traits? Arya and Jon.

[Jojen]

the White Lot and the Red Lot are clearly the protagonists in a struggle in which the Children are sitting nervously on the sideline rather than manipulating things, far less deciding which good boys go to heaven and which become...

I don't know how nervous the Children are. They know their days are numbered and that the world has moved on. But I agree that their role in events is small. Significant, but small all the same, and willing to let their proxies fight it out.

[Uncat]

Might be though if the Nights King business (and the Night that Ended battle) only took place a thousand years ago in the wake of the Andal invasion.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

[Black Crow]

I don't know how nervous the Children are. They know their days are numbered and that the world has moved on. But I agree that their role in events is small. Significant, but small all the same, and willing to let their proxies fight it out.

I'm not so sure about the proxies. The conflict is between Ice and Fire, but the Children/Singers represent Earth. They're therefore not directly involved and I don't see them manipulating the weather per Dragonspawn above, but rather as I've suggested before their concern is that the conflict is rocking the whole boat. Both summer and winter, death and rebirth, are essential parts of the cycle of life; engless summer or endless winter will screw the Earth.

[Lummel]

Nice but no Ice. The valyrian steel version isn't old enough - it has been in the family for hundreds of years not thousands.

Might be though if the Nights King business (and the Night that Ended battle) only took place a thousand years ago in the wake of the Andal invasion.

Here's the quote, Catelyn I AGOT:

"Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the ages of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North."

Four hundred years ago is far too recent. Once we get into Anadal time and the Septons then the Maesters writing histories we'd have to start inventing conspiracy stories to explain why a mammoth event is officially unknown to have happened so recently (but is instead believed to have occurred in ancient times), but is remembered in a popular northern song just to give a valyrian steel sword to the stark who brought down the nights king.

[Lykos]

Stupid swords, but they seem to be important as the stupid Blackfyre tells us. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

So if Catelyn is correct the valyrian "Ice" was obtained 100 years before Torrhen knelt. Long Claw the valyrian blade of the Mormont´s raised some questions in this forum, too. How did the Mormont´s come by such a treasure?

Makes me wonder, when did the Wandering Wolf, Rodrik Stark give Bear Island to the Mormonts? Was the first Mormont a comrade in arms of the Wandering Wolf during his time with the second sons? Did they obtain these blades at that time? Is the first male Mormont from Norvos? Bears, - and Jeor / Jorah similar to Areo Hotah. And if some sword seems of importance it´s Dawn. Does it bring the day? Is House Dayne called accordingly?

I´d like to start a little project and collect all we know and think we know about the Stark Kings and Lords. I give you a very unsorted list, I made for my private use, followed by the list of Stark Kings from the wiki, which order I began to doubt.

- Jon Stark drove sea raiders out of the east and built the castle at White Harbour.

- His son Rickard Stark took the Neck from the Marsh King and married his daughter.

-Jorah, Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Dorren, Benjen the Sweet, Benjen the Bitter, Edrick Snowbeard and his greatgrandson Brandon Ice-Eyes

- Brandon Stark „The Shipwright“ tall, dreamy face.

- His son Brandon Stark „The Burner“ burnt his father´s ships in grief.

- Rodrik Stark „The Wandering Wolf“ won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts.

- Theon Stark „Hungry Wolf“ always at war, real thin, long hair, skinny beard.

- Edwyn Stark The Springking

- Torrhen Stark „The King Who Knelt“ first Lord of Winterfell.

- Cregan Stark fought Aemon the „Dragon Knight“, who said he never faced a finer swordsman.

- Willam Stark was beheaded in the fight against Raymun Redbeard & his younger brother

- Artos Stark „Artos the Implacable“ (Grandfather of lord Rickard) defeated Raymun Redbeard & made the NW bury the dead.

- Beron Stark Lord of WF during Aeron I reign (209 - 221 AL). Gathered swords to throw back the Ironborn.

- Edwyle Stark Warden of the North.

- Rickard Stark and his children Brandon and Lyanna,

- Donnor Stark

- Rodwell Stark

- Jonnel Stark the One- Eyed.

- Brandon Stark Lord of WF.

• 
  Barth Stark
  

No precise lineage of Kings in the North is known, but the individuals listed below are supposed to be in rough chronological order.

• 
  Bran, the Builder, founder of house Stark and the first King of the North, builder of Winterfell castle and the Wall.
  
• 
  King Theon, the Hungry Wolf
  
• 
  King Brandon the Shipwright, loved sailing and built up a mighty Northern fleet.
  
• 
  King Brandon, the Burner, burned the entire Northern fleet after the disappearance of his father on the Sunset Sea.
  
• 
  King Jonnel
  
• 
  King Dorren
  
• 
  King Jon, built the castle of White Harbor after driving away sea raiders.
  
• 
  King Rickard, defeated the Marsh King extending their kingdom to include the Neck.
  
• 
  King Rodrik
  
• 
  King Edrick
  
• 
  King Brandon, called Ice Eyes
  
• 
  King Benjen the Bitter
  
• 
  King Benjen the Sweet
  
• 
  King Eyron
  
• 
  King Edderion, the Bridegroom
  
• 
  King Walton, the Moonking
  
• 
  King Brandon the Bad
  
• 
  King Jorah Stark
  
• 
  King Jonos
  
• 
  King Edwyn, the Spring King
  
• 
  Torrhen, the King Who Knelt, who bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror, making the North part of the Seven Kingdoms.
  
• 
  Robb, the Young Wolf, the last King in the North, who died at the events of the Red Wedding.

  
  

[Uncat]

Ok, I'm noticing a fair bit of time line issues. I've recently studied up on the timeline, so I know all the dates and the approximate times for everything to occur, but there seems to be a difference in the time line George gives and the time line used on the Heresy threads, anyone care to help me out on that?

Also, responding to lots of stuff with not particular quotes since I just read five pages and took notes while I read them.

1) The magic used to revive is Drogo is Blood magic. It isn't Ice/Other or Fire/R'hllor magic. I'm thinking that this means that blood or people aren't as strong as the forces that the Old Gods or R'hllor commands. I think this is why Drogo doesn't have "life" in his life. Blood is too weak.

2) On the Hells: I think it's to much Dante's Inferno to focus on them. I don't see the connection of hells to the plot since they have more to do with the Seven then any other god/s, and the Seven haven't done anything. They seem to be of little importance.

3) On the Seven: we seem to discuss the magic a lot, but not the "Gods" behind it. Of all the Gods it seems that the only ones that really "exist" are: Old Gods, R'hllor, and the Many-Faced God. The Drowned God has some scraps of proof, but the Seven and the Mother of Mountains don't seem to have any founding. I've always wondered if the religion of the Seven isn't a false one made by the maesters to control the Andal warriors. Anyone one to challange with proof of their existance? My only theory concerning the Seven is that when Aegon got the "blessing" from the High Septon in Oldtown that that solidified the Targaryens as the rightful rulers of Westeros and it's why the other kings are dying when they hit the Iron Throne.

Also, I find it interesting that Catelyn says that Ice is a First Men name for their sword, that it's carried down, since the first men didn't speak Common, why would Ice be used to name a weapons since Ice is an Andal Common word? Just wondering if the word Ice isn't in the original Andal vocabulary and is a First men/ Winter concept.

As for the physical connection of the Others to the Starks here is Jon:

Slender...dark...graceful and quick...

And the Others:

A shadow...tall...gaunt...pale...silent...graceful...lightning quick...light as snow on the wind

It seems like Jon has many of the qualities examined by the Watchmen from the Prologue of AGOT and Sam from ASOS.

I know I picked out more that isn't related to Jon, but these other traits are found in Arya, quiet as a shadow, quick as a snake, light as a feather, etc...

And as we can all agree who has the "Stark" traits? Arya and Jon.

A lot of points. I'll pick the one that is haunting me the most: Timelines.

GRRM does seem to give us timelines. But actually he does not. It is the people who's POV we get that tell us that that happened then and that was a thousand years ago. Now Westeros is a society were scientificaly researched history does not exist. Written history in the shape of annals - like those of the Watch which Sam flips through - does only exist since the Andals came. Now try it for yourself: What happened to your family a thousend years ago? What happened a hundred years ago? What happened fifty years ago? Try the same for the place you live.

All we know about the history of our countries, towns and families we know because:

A - We were either told by somebody who was told it by somebody who heard it from somebody. This would be oral tradition and that one (by a rule of thump established in historic research) gets blurry for everything that is past three generations (i.e. after everybody dies who really was there). What happend four generations ago is almost legend and anything that ist past fice generations ago (about 150 years) is myth. And of course anything that did mot happen to a meber of your family or the close neighbors is legend right away.

B - We know it, because we read up something, someone claimes to have researched. In a society like ours, where history is a science this is fairly reliable, because hundreds of people went through old archives to pick up the pieces. But in a society like Westeros that is not the case. And then this only works as long as there are written documents. Once they cease to exist, archeology is all you have and in Westeros there is non

I'm going through this details because it is important to understand, how people gain knowledge of their history. This, because GRRM messes exactly with this.

He invented a society were history is only important, if it serves to strenghen the claims of some house or the other and as a way to form young lordlings in the traditions of their house. This is why the great houses at some point started to write down the deeds of their members and maybe sometimes let a curious maester go through their archives.

Everything else in Westeros is myth and legend not history. So if some POV seems to feed us historic facts, all he or she really does, is to relate some myth or legend because it is all, he or she would know.

At the Heresy threads, we at least suspect, that GRRM uses this fact deliberatly to feed us false information. The trick is, that he as the author is not lying. The character who is thinking or talking about the specific piece of history just stays in character because, how could he or she know something else than this piece of legend.

The gist is: If we roughly apply our realworld knowledge about how oral tradition in societies such as Westero works, we will come to the conclusion, that the timeline given in the books is very overstreched. By now GRRM hinted on this several times to. He even hints on this in the book, when someone say "as the maresters tell" or "the maesters disagree on this"

Personaly I assume that the 8000 years established in the books will turn out to be some 2000 to 3000 years - which still is an afull lot of time.

Where I live today, the first men settled down some 1800 years ago.

[Lykos]

Uncat, do you live in Greenland? Where else did the bronze culture start at 200 AD.

[Uncat]

Uncat, do you live in Greenland? Where else did the bronze culture start at 200 AD.

All around this place it started a few thousends of years earlier. But right at this spot the first settlers settled down in roughly around 200 AD.