Heresy 12

[Black Crow]

Maybe the original Stark was actually a changeling/some sort of Sidhe-human thing that, as part of a peace pact with the Sidhe, was imposed upon the men of the north, hence why "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell." And since the Starks are no longer at Winterfell...

The way we've been reading it is that the Last Hero was a Stark, not improbably called Bran, and that the suggested pact brokered by the Children confirming the Others/Sidhe domain as everything north of the Wall required the Starks to act as some kind of guarantors on the south side, hence the Stark in Winterfell bit. Exactly how and why this was supposed to work we obviously don't know but there are a few ideas floating about. Either way it has of course gone a bit pear-shaped.

[Lummel]

...That said, one thing that makes me suspect that the land of the Others is not the same as the Otherworld of the faerie is that it seems to have a geographic location, it's the land of always winter. That is not the same as the Otherworld of the faerie. In this story the Others have a land for themselves and the Wall marks where that land ends supposedly. It may not have been like that always though, maybe the Others were different and lived where there was no ice earlier, and have just adapted to circumstances. Maybe the hills and barrows were their habitat and they were driven north from there...

Yes I just wanted to pick up on this point. The otherworld in the mabinogion is weird, it's within a days ride from the hero's home but nobody has been there before and it is completely seperate from his reality it is unreal in a way that teh set up in ASOIAF doesn't seem to be, here the Otherworld is a distinct geographical location that you can chart on a map. It is as though GRRM has taken certain folklore traditions and applied them literally, but with the physical barrier of The Wall allows a life free of the wilder stuff to exist to the south.

[jon rr stark]

…Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds,

This quote i find interesting. The nights watch are suppose to be independent of the realms and take no part in their dealings. But at the 'behest' of a stark they all range beyond the wall. This is another example of how the starks and the watch are intimately entwined. There are examples of the stark in winterfell coming to the rescue of the watch. The Nights king was probably a stark and lots of starks have served on the wall, again probably LC's or chief rangers like brandon. This would back up the idea of the starks being somekind of guarantor or indeed the ones who set up the wall and NW as their buffer zone. Even now the starks give full support for the NW and are the only ones who show them respect. Also yoren came to Ned in KL to report to him and it falls to the stark in winterfell to excute any NW deserters re the prologue in AGOT. But over time perhaps the full reason as to why or what their role should be is forgot. So I think the origins of the wall and the magic within go back to the starks. Also the abilities (wragging greenseeing) last of the first men etc point to links beyond the wall. Think about before the wall would not the wildlings have come under the control of the starks if the northern kingdom was as dominant as it is now.

[PSHorton]

Sorry I'm new to the Heresies. I doubt this has been brought up though since the Sidhe/Other connection seems to be a recent one.

Either way, here it goes:

I have more points to make, but this just struck me, plus I want to work them out more before I post them.

Leanan Sidhe - a Sidhe that takes a human lover. They offer insperation in exchange for love and devotion. They're similar to a muse, however, they eventually cause madness in their lovers. They are short lived and often cause their lovers to be short lived as well.

Sound familiar? Thinking the Lady Other the Night King married? So was I.

Assuming Night's Watchmen couldn't be married to begin with I'd say that the ranger saw her one day and fell in love with her. She inspired him to greatness, and so he took her as a wife. The longer they were together however he began to suffer the "madness" proclaiming himself Night's King. In the end we know he dies for this, and can assume the Lady Other.

But I thought of someone else first when I read about the Leanan Sidhe, I thought of Lyanna Stark.

A muse that offers insperation to an artist in return for devotion and love. This increases until madness, and then eventually they burn out young.

If the Starks have Sidhe/Other blood in their veins it would seem that Lyanna could have had this effect on Rhaegar. He is an artist. More gifted with song and music than with sword and lance. The first night he would have seen Lyanna would have been the night when he made her tear up with his song.

He was "taken under the spell" so to speak. Next her beauty or her "power" sturred him. He wasn't anything special in combat, good, but not great Barristan backs that up. However, in the tourny Rhaegar beats everyone. He didn't just get a lucky set up. He beat Arthur Dayne, Barristan, etc... "It was almost as if no lance could touch him". Then, what does he do when he wins, but show a woman he hardly knows incredible devotion by passing up his own wife and giving a crown of Winter Roses to Lyanna of all people. Of course the rest is pretty simple. A year later he kidnaps her and less than a year later they're both dead. Having died young.

If the tale of Bael is meant to signify the relationship between the Others/Wildlings/Starks/Sidhe/etc... what having you, then a crown of Winter Roses being given by the embodyment of a family that is Fire to a woman that is the embodyment of Ice should be very significant.

Also the Winter Rose in general seems to be a metaphor for the Sidhe/Stark family trait. From Bael, to Lyanna, and now Jon.

Done.

Anyway, that's what I got for now. Currently working on Sidhe/Stark theory about how the Starks are the children of Night's King and that the Stark name is an Andal creation being the main discord in never finding the family name for Night's King

Holy hell. I'm not sure if I can buy into this theory in its entirety, but I WANT to. Nice observations.

[PSHorton]

I'm a little foggy on the whole Night King story. Could someone shoot me a link, or even a book and page number? (I have the first four books in paperback)

[Lykos]

@PSHorton, In my version of Storm (paperback 1128 pages without Appendix) it´s page 762. The last Bran chapter, I think.

[Uncat]

So does the red comet influence the seasons? Making them warmer? Or does he have to appear at certain points of the season to strengthen magic? Is it pushing open the door between Summer- and Winter-Court?

I'm comming to think, that the Red Comet actually does nothing but herald a change, without causing it. The Comet itself is either caused by that change or just happens to be in sync with the tides of magic and just marks "dawn" and "dusk" in the big cycle the Sidhe's courts live in.

Actualy I'm suspecting, it does not mark the return of magic but like an red light it marks the moment, when there is enough magic in the world for the return of the dragon.

We spoke of the tides of magic before and I like the picture: like with tides, you will never be able to nail the exact second, when the sea stops to flow out and starts to come back. A lot of time will pass, befor you really start seing the effects. Flood creeps in inch by inch. But then gradualy this effects start to add up und some two or three hours later it feels, as if the tide is rushing in.

Let's say, tides changed some fift years ago. The magical races such as the Children or the WW where the first to notice it. Inch by inch magic kreeps back, carrying Bloodraven to the Wall, while Craster picks up his business with the Cold Gods. Some fourty years ago, others startet to notice it, most notably the Targs in some way - their dreams may be a sign for the rise in magic, too. They stage Summerhall, thinking, that the time is right for what ever they intended to do. And so on. Now, in ADWD, the magical flood is rushing in, visible for everybody, who wants to see it.

[Black Crow]

I'm a little foggy on the whole Night King story. Could someone shoot me a link, or even a book and page number? (I have the first four books in paperback)

Storm of Swords:

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[Lykos]

@Uncat, I didn´t like the idea that the red comet influences anything, and as I said. I´m not sure if the one Dany saw and the one at Aegon´s conception are the same, but I find it strange that we have a false spring at the one incident and the longest summer anyone remembers at the other.

I think there are some similarities to the Three Eyed Crow though, apart from both comets and ravens being mythical messengers, that usualy bring bad news. The crow/raven is seen as a trickster and thief in tales as is the comet by the wildlings and in greek mythology hermes was not only the messenger of the gods, but also the patron of merchants and thieves.

[PSHorton]

Thanks to both of you.

I must have immerdiately dismissed that story as fluff when i read it. Pretty stupid when you consider this particular author.

[PSHorton]

Are there any instances we knoe of, besides Craster and The Night King, of people sacrificing to the others?

[Uncat]

Thanks to both of you.

I must have immerdiately dismissed that story as fluff when i read it. Pretty stupid when you consider this particular author.

Thanks for the quote. I just head a thought about this tale, that would mend it perfectly with the history of the North, but no time to spell it out. I'll try tonigz

[Uncat]

@Uncat, I didn´t like the idea that the red comet influences anything, and as I said. I´m not sure if the one Dany saw and the one at Aegon´s conception are the same, but I find it strange that we have a false spring at the one incident and the longest summer anyone remembers at the other.

I think there are some similarities to the Three Eyed Crow though, apart from both comets and ravens being mythical messengers, that usualy bring bad news. The crow/raven is seen as a trickster and thief in tales as is the comet by the wildlings and in greek mythology hermes was not only the messenger of the gods, but also the patron of merchants and thieves.

Love that thought about the thieve! And the thing with the fals spring is bugging me, too. I mean, it sounds cool ("the Year of the false Spring") but I keep thinking, that there must be more to it

[Werthead]

True, but on the other hand the Sidhe are very firmly rooted in folklore. They are in that sense "real" and therefore neither an invention nor a flashy bit of deus ex machina.

If this was Tolkien, I would agree. However, ASoIaF is not so rooted in mythology and folklore. GRRM's primary inspirations with the series have always been firmly historical, even with the religions. Whilst it is possible that the Others/Children of the Forest may be an exception to this (and ADWD suggests the CotF are indeed elf-like), I would also not be surprised to see a more straightforward explanation for them.

The 'other realms' idea may be rooted in folklore, but it's also a form of magic beyond anything suggested in ASoIaF so far. GRRM has said that the level of magic in the series will increase, but will never be as prevalent as in most other fantasy series. I think gateways to other dimensions would qualify as being in the 'too much magic' category, unless justified in another way (such as say people going into the far north and passing without realising it into the Others' realm).

[Eyron]

Yes I just wanted to pick up on this point. The otherworld in the mabinogion is weird, it's within a days ride from the hero's home but nobody has been there before and it is completely seperate from his reality it is unreal in a way that teh set up in ASOIAF doesn't seem to be, here the Otherworld is a distinct geographical location that you can chart on a map. It is as though GRRM has taken certain folklore traditions and applied them literally, but with the physical barrier of The Wall allows a life free of the wilder stuff to exist to the south.

My thought exactly. I think that is what I find a little bit different from other fantasy novels. He has gone closer to the real myths and stories and made them come alive in his universe. I love that about these books!

Another interesting thing that really gave me pause was when Mr. Martin said that the world of ASoIaF is much bigger than what we have seen. There are a lot of places that we will never even see on a map. The lands of always winter can be really really big for instance. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it enhances the feeling that the wars of Westeros are sort of petty and that it's people are somewhat ignorant and have not explored the rest of the world yet.

I'm glad we will get a POV exploring the far north, that will really put so many thoughts to rest :)

I hope we will also get some info on the maesters role in all of this. They seem to have developed out of an old collaboration with the Children, since they learnt the use of ravens from them or from first men that must have been deeply connected to the Children to know these things. They kept the old weirwood in the citadel for some reason, even though they must have known how the trees were used by the Children long ago (when they decided to keep it). At the same time they seem to insist on modernization and a world without magic. It's puzzling to me. I feel like they have a major role in all of this, but I can't put my finger on what that is.

[Lummel]

...The 'other realms' idea may be rooted in folklore, but it's also a form of magic beyond anything suggested in ASoIaF so far. GRRM has said that the level of magic in the series will increase, but will never be as prevalent as in most other fantasy series. I think gateways to other dimensions would qualify as being in the 'too much magic' category, unless justified in another way (such as say people going into the far north and passing without realising it into the Others' realm).

There's no reason for it to be a metaphysical other realm. The Otherworld in ASOIAF seems to be a literal place with the fortress / heart of winter that Bran saw in his three eyed crow dream being an actual physical location somewhere in the lands of always Winter. And what are the White walkers if not creatures that have adapted to survive in an ultra low temperature enviroment? The Otherworld I would suggest begins at The Wall.

It looks as though GRRM was inspired by folklore but is giving it a real physical expression. No alternate dimensions required.

[Werthead]

There's no reason for it to be a metaphysical other realm. The Otherworld in ASOIAF seems to be a literal place with the fortress / heart of winter that Bran saw in his three eyed crow dream being an actual physical location somewhere in the lands of always Winter. And what are the White walkers if not creatures that have adapted to survive in an ultra low temperature enviroment? The Otherworld I would suggest begins at The Wall.

It looks as though GRRM was inspired by folklore but is giving it a real physical expression. No alternate dimensions required.

Something more like the Shadowline in Tad William's Shadowmarch series (if you haven't read it, a land that is 'otherworldly' but still part of the same world)? Yes, I can see that working. Although I think it would have to be further north, beyond Thenn, but maybe advancing south with the Others as they gain control over more and more land.

[Lummel]

...I hope we will also get some info on the maesters role in all of this. They seem to have developed out of an old collaboration with the Children, since they learnt the use of ravens from them or from first men that must have been deeply connected to the Children to know these things. They kept the old weirwood in the citadel for some reason, even though they must have known how the trees were used by the Children long ago (when they decided to keep it). At the same time they seem to insist on modernization and a world without magic. It's puzzling to me. I feel like they have a major role in all of this, but I can't put my finger on what that is.

Name changing, avatar changing and now you're quoting the Ritter Sport advertising tag in your signature!

The Maesters remind me a bit like the universities in our world. Although in some ways the same (they are in the same places, still do teaching), they are a world away from their original purposes of training up boys for the Church.

But I like the thought about the Maesters origin as the Raven handlers.

[Lummel]

Something more like the Shadowline in Tad William's Shadowmarch series (if you haven't read it, a land that is 'otherworldly' but still part of the same world)? Yes, I can see that working. Although I think it would have to be further north, beyond Thenn, but maybe advancing south with the Others as they gain control over more and more land.

Yeah, I'm imagining that it would be something along those lines, but possibly GRRM's otherworld isn't terribly otherworldly just the place where the Others live, I imagine it would be different and beautiful not so much in an unearthly way but more in the same way that the Arctic and Antarctic are in our world.

[Eyron]

Name changing, avatar changing and now you're quoting the Ritter Sport advertising tag in your signature!

But you knew it was me right? :) I thought I'd make it easier for my friends with choosing a knit puppet avatar... I'll try to keep that as a common denominator in avatars from here on.

There is a Euro going on, and I'm assigned to root for Deutschland! Das siegreiche Fußballmannschaft :D (I don't know German so probably not grammatically correct..)

The Maesters remind me a bit like the universities in our world. Although in some ways the same (they are in the same places, still do teaching), they are a world away from their original purposes of training up boys for the Church. But I like the thought about the Maesters origin as the Raven handlers.

I think it fit's with how important the ravens have been in the story. There is a lot of emphasis on the maesters connection to them. Then we learn how the Children still use them for skinchanging purposes, and that the first men learned from them to use them as messengers, which the maesters are the only ones to still do. The maesters obviously have other purposes but the ravenry (the iron link on the chain) seems to be very important.

About the Otherworld, I think that if there is an Otherworld with a magical boundary in this story it's beyond the curtain of light that Bran sees through in his flying vision. The Others do come south of it but I don't think the Otherworld extends that far south, even though all the lands north of the Wall could be rightfully theirs from some previous agreement.