[Book Spoilers] The Failure of the Kingsguard

[Morvran]

In the books, the Kingsguard as a collective group is one of the most powerful and important symbols in the realm. They serve and protect until death, they father no sons, they own no titles. They give up their lives for the King and the realm. The story arcs of some of the most important characters, like Jaime and Barriston, hinge on the reader understanding who and what the Kingsguard is.

I feel that HBO has failed to portray them sufficiently, and the show suffers from this.

During the Battle of the Blackwater the two non-readers I was with had minor reactions to Tyrion being struck down. I was kind of shocked b/c I couldn't wait to see their reactions to it, and both of them just kind of went "Ohhhh. Ouch." Their reactions were partially due to the fact that the wound didn't look all that crazy and they weren't afraid that Tyrion had been killed. But then I discovered that NEITHER of them realized he had been struck down by a member of the Kingsguard. They just didn't catch it. There were too many men fighting in armor and helms for them to put it together, despite Tyrion's reaction before the blow.

Part of the problem here is that Ser Mandon Moore wasn't cast, and instead he's portrayed by a random guy in a Kingsguard helm, and that's how we're supposed to recognize him. Another problem is that their armor doesn't stand out enough in the show. When Loras (I'm assuming it was he) leads those troops into battle on that white horse, he stands out amongst the rabble, and that should be the same for the Kingsguard.

I'm assuming this will change by next season with the additions to the guard of Loras and Jaime (eventually), but I really think they've dropped the ball so far. It should have been crystal clear who attacked Tyrion during the battle.

[StannisandDaeny]

Imo Jaime and Barristan had many good scenes as King's Guards that also explained the basics of the Kingsguard (especially when Barristan was fired), the King's Guard has been present in almost every scene with Joffrey, you can see Sandor's armour changing when he's promoted to Kingsguard and he's reminded he's a Kingsguard before he leaves, Joffrey is heading out with his Kingsguard before the battle, Ser Mandon has a scene with Tyrion beforehand, Joffrey clearly sends Mandon among with Tyrion, it's pretty obvious Tyrion is smiling at him and lowering his defense and then surprised he would strike out at him, rather than immediately facing him as an enemy... (LOL at Tyrion's facial expression when he realizes Mandon is attacking him, great acting btw). Heck the King's Guard's helmets are even unique and we've seen them plenty of times, like in Meryn's attack on Syrio, a pretty dramatic scene people will remember. For someone who has seen all episodes and paid a bit of attention I think it was pretty clear, people who watch very casually without getting too immersed and / or haven't seen all the episodes may have missed it but they won't mind as much anyway because it will be explained to them in the next one.

Oh and to me that wound looked rather nasty, it was a 'clean cut' the kind you can't easily tell how deep it is, which means Ser Mandon hit him with a *lot* of force 0_0

[jblair]

Watched with 5 others, all of whom have seen all the episodes. Not a single one of them knew it was a KG member.

[StannisandDaeny]

That's the difference between active and passive viewing I guess. To make sense of the battle I immediately looked at the helmets - most of Stannis' men had English style helmets. Mandon's armour and helmet has been shown countless times before, the scene where Meryn fights Syrio or Barristan gets fired being the most prominent ones. Then there's Tyrion not defending himself and making a surprised face, as well... putting two and two together couldn't be that hard, come on.

[Magjee]

Casuals wont be able to catch these things, there is simply too much going on every single episode.

[King Tommen]

In a visual medium, it's very hard to distinguish armour from one group to the next as it is difficult to differentiate clothing in the middle of a large scale battle without them being drastically different colors. It's easier to follow in the books because the word on the page describes what each person is wearing and identifies each individual who is interacting with the characters in the scene. You don't get that luxury on television. You just have to hope that people are paying attention. Casual viewers just aren't going to pick it up and there's not much you can do about it. The show has provided enough references to the Kingsguard that people who are following closely enough should be able to tell who they are.

[victim]

The people I watched with didn't understand he was a Kingsguard until I told them. They did, however, realise that it was friendly-fire because of Tyrion's reaction to him before the attack. I believe that's all that matters is that the watcher understands Tyrion has been betrayed despite not knowing who by, it's not like Moore acted on a whim anyway, he was only a pawn in someone higher's game.

In terms of the Kingsguard as a whole, they certainly haven't gone into too much detail, though I suspect that'll change when Jaime, Loras and Barristan are featured more.

[StannisandDaeny]

"Ser Mandon, stay with you uncle-", "Ser Mandon, you will bear the royal banner" ... Hints hints. I understand you could miss out on him being Kingsguard or Ser Mandon, but it's pretty clear it was 'friendly fire' and the character of Ser Mandon is quite insignificant in the books anyway. The one thing they could've / should've done is let them wear their white cloaks 'cos they didn't appear to be wearing them in battle.

[Arkash]

The Kingsguard is, honestly, the major problem I have with the show ! Maybe, if we scream / write it high enough, D&D will hear us...

[jblair]

That's the difference between active and passive viewing I guess. To make sense of the battle I immediately looked at the helmets - most of Stannis' men had English style helmets. Mandon's armour and helmet has been shown countless times before, the scene where Meryn fights Syrio or Barristan gets fired being the most prominent ones. Then there's Tyrion not defending himself and making a surprised face, as well... putting two and two together couldn't be that hard, come on.

No, you are just an extraordinarily gifted person.

[Morvran]

"Ser Mandon, stay with you uncle-", "Ser Mandon, you will bear the royal banner" ... Hints hints.

This is my point. The Kingsguard are SO underdeveloped in the show that even when they lay these hints out for the viewer they don't compute with many (most) of the non-readers. First of all, Joffrey and Tyrion say those lines, but they don't mean anything to most viewers because there is no response from Ser Mandon (because there essentially is no Ser Mandon). He doesn't even respond to Joffrey aside from a tiny nod hidden underneath his monstrous helm. ...and yes, his helm is very different from everyone else's, yet somehow viewers still don't understand who the guards are.

I spent yesterday with two other non-readers. Both of them, as well, completely missed the fact that a member of the Kingsguard attacked Tyrion. One realized it was friendly fire, the other didn't. In the latter's words it was because "it looked like a big, scary guy...so obviously a bad guy" (they obviously don't grasp yet that everyone is a bad guy hehe).

As to the 'casual vs. active' viewer, that argument doesn't fly when these same people can name every other character they see and follow the plot without asking me tons of questions.

[Frumpus]

Mandon had some great lines in the book, it's a pity that he wasn't cast for real. I would have loved to see him offer his hand to Tyrion and shout out that "my lord" line, only to then slash him in the face.

Since Boros Blount has been relegated to extra status as well, I hope they will actually cast someone for Balon Swann. Not sure what they will do about the Kettlebacks.

[jblair]

They certainly could have been less subtle. Tyrion's reaction could have been interpreted numerous ways.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Yeah, it was hard to catch he was one of the Kingsguard, but every bookreader knows it of course. And judging from Tyrion's reaction before he gets wounded, (he smiles, grins, something like that; an understanding look) it is someone on the side of the Lannisters, so nonbookreaders should at least know it was friendly fire.

[StannisandDaeny]

Which is the most important thing after all.

[Jolene Brown]

I think they could have done more with color-coding generally to make the battle less confusing for those who haven't read the books. I've loved the use of red for the Lannisters, but they could have emphasized the white for the Kingsguard more (shouldn't they have white armor, not just white cloaks?) and done other things for the other factions. More banners, more colors! But it's a tiny quibble in the overall scheme of things.

[Chalkius Stark]

I thought it was very obvious that he was KG. We've seen people in that armour every episode, and had it pointed out very clearly in scenes with Jaime and Barristan. We even had The hound being reminded by Tyrion about the KG, and we had Joffrey telling Boros and Mandon to be on the field of battle...if anyone missed it they've not been paying attention.

[Tony Soprano]

I agree with you, the Kingsguard should have more distinguishable armor, but I don't think that mattered in the scene with Tyrion. The viewers were supposed to conclude that he was attacked by one of the city's defenders, which should be pretty easy to catch because of the shock on Tyrion's face .

I don't care about Ser Mandon, Ser Boros and all the rest of the KG who aren't really important.

But I wish that in Season 3, they would make the rest of the KG more recognizable. And they need to cast someone for Balon Swann, they can't have an extra, because he has more lines than the rest of the KG combined.

[Morvran]

Well I used the scene with Tyrion during the battle as an example of how the Kingsguard has been underrepresented. The fact that people (mainly non-readers I'd assume) could miss the fact that a member of the King's own guard struck Tyrion down is a good example, but not the main issue.

Even just the fact that they're not dressed in white to stand apart is puzzling. Forget about the "special helm", if these guys were wearing their white gear, which they supposedly take care of fastidiously, they would stand out. Just reading one of Jaime's chapters near the end of SoS, the description of the Kingsguard's "White Sword Tower" shows that even all their furniture, tapestries, and walls are white.

I'm normally not a stickler for book details and how they translate to the show, or rather I'm not critical of them, but the Tyrion example made me realize that HBO has done a poor job of bringing their presence to the fore. It will change next season when Jaime returns and Loras joins (I'd assume).

[jlk7e]

The fact that non-readers don't catch as much as we can while reading the books is basically inevitable - stuff is going to fall through the cracks. Such is the world. It's not desperately important that non-readers are immediately aware that it was Mandon Moore of the Kingsguard who attacked Tyrion - although I agree that they might have done a slightly better job introducing him, given him a few lines, and such. Tyrion will presumably be investigating this later on, and thus will be able to talk about what happened with Pod and Bronn and explain it better.

BTW, who was the Kingsguard who was with Cersei in Maegor's Holdfast and told her about the servants stealing stuff? It obviously wasn't Trant or the Hound.

And I also hope they end up casting Balon Swann, although I'm doubtful. I would not be at all surprised, though, if we get Osmund Kettleblack.