Thunderfist Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Book Robb doesnt even deserve a POV. Think about that for a nanosec or two.I´ve thought about it, and I don´t get what you are trying to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I´ve thought about it, and I don´t get what you are trying to sayAll the major characters get point of view (POV) chapters. GRRM thinks so little of Robb Stark that he doesnt bother with him. At least Robb gets face time on HBO. He pretty much is the same character as in the book. Any difference one thinks there is in the book is a product of ones on imagination, not what GRRM wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurararaFTW Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Castel: per Aristotles definition of a tragic hero the hero must be a morally blameless man.Book Robb is blameless for sleeping with Jeyne because of his state of mind and body, he can be excused because he was not in his right mind (grief) nor in his right body (festering wound).Book Robb is blameless for marrying Jeyne because it was an honorable thing to do.I don't think GRRM wrote any character with this in mind. Book Robb's got excuses, certainly better excuses then TV Robb but he's not blameless. Jeyne Westerling slept with him, Freys children and grandchildren fought and died for him. He chose too put one thing ahead of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istakhr Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 All the major characters get point of view (POV) chapters. GRRM thinks so little of Robb Stark that he doesnt bother with him. At least Robb gets face time on HBO. He pretty much is the same character as in the book. Any difference one thinks there is in the book is a product of ones on imagination, not what GRRM wrote.What do you mean by major character here? If you mean effect on the whole story, you are simply wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istakhr Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I don't think GRRM wrote any character with this in mind. Book Robb's got excuses, certainly better excuses then TV Robb but he's not blameless. Jeyne Westerling slept with him, Freys children and grandchildren fought and died for him. He chose too put one thing ahead of the other.Book Robb chose between two things he considered dishonorable.TV Rob is chose between an option he considers honorable and another that he considers dishonorable. He chose dishonor because he considers honor to be useless after his honorable father's death and to spite his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 All the major characters get point of view (POV) chapters. GRRM thinks so little of Robb Stark that he doesnt bother with him. At least Robb gets face time on HBO. He pretty much is the same character as in the book. Any difference one thinks there is in the book is a product of ones on imagination, not what GRRM wrote.No. Just no. You need to reread. They are not the same.And POV does not constitute character importance. For example, Stannis, Jorah, Beric, Old Bear, the Hound, ..... the list goes on.POV is a strategic decision made by GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 No. Just no. YPOV is a strategic decision made by GRRM.Yes yes yes just yes. Major characters get POV. They might not be a major character in the world as a whole, e.g. Robert Baratheon, but they are THE major characters in the plot as deemed important by GRRM. A strategic decision indeed. How important can a character be in his interactions with other major characters if GRRM leaves him out. Robb was off-stage and he stayed off-stage until permanently off-ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yes yes yes just yes. Major characters get POV. They might not be a major character in the world as a whole, e.g. Robert Baratheon, but they are THE major characters in the plot as deemed important by GRRM. A strategic decision indeed. How important can a character be in his interactions with other major characters if GRRM leaves him out. Robb was off-stage and he stayed off-stage until permanently off-ed.I am unsure why you cut part of my quote out, but alright. It seems we have a difference of opinions, but I believe GRRM strategically chooses who to give a POV to, as well as when. It allows him to manipulate our view of characters and events, as well as create ambiguity in some cases (which made this discussion exist). GRRM is an expert at making us readers talk about his books and debate "what really happened?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istakhr Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yes yes yes just yes. Major characters get POV. They might not be a major character in the world as a whole, e.g. Robert Baratheon, but they are THE major characters in the plot as deemed important by GRRM. A strategic decision indeed. How important can a character be in his interactions with other major characters if GRRM leaves him out. Robb was off-stage and he stayed off-stage until permanently off-ed.Your definition of central character is not equivalent to important. POVs are chosen to show us what GRRM wants us to know. Robb was the central character of the north storyline the same way as Littlefinger have been important in south storyline and Varys to almost all of the stories. Their active choices shape the story while many POVs are just observers to give us a particular perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I am not sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?That weighing one honorable choice as more honorable is a relativistic approach to morality. The starks believe in a thing being right or wrong, not more right or less right than another thing.Therefore, when the choice of marrying jeyne being less honorable than staying true to his vow to the freys has no meaning to the starks.That is why I say when he slept with Jeyne Robb was left with an irreconcilable choice. Either act was to betray his honor.All the major characters get point of view (POV) chapters. GRRM thinks so little of Robb Stark that he doesnt bother with him. At least Robb gets face time on HBO. He pretty much is the same character as imn the book. Any difference one thinks there is in the book is a product of ones on imagination, not what GRRM wrote.Book Robb from a literary perspective is more properly presented without a POV, thatway the reader has more flexibility in viewing his actins.I don't think GRRM wrote any character with this in mind. Book Robb's got excuses, certainly better excuses then TV Robb but he's not blameless. Jeyne Westerling slept with him, Freys children and grandchildren fought and died for him. He chose too put one thing ahead of the other.all he needs be is a morally blameless man not a perfect man. GRRM took pains to put Robb in the situation he was in when he slept with Jeyne to absolve him, to the extent feasible, for his tragic mistake.WRT not giving Robb a POV it allows for Robb's character to be viewed more heroically, more pure, because we do not see inside his thoughts and motivations. That is critical to our perception of Robb and highly intentional of GRRM IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 WRT not giving Robb a POV it allows for Robb's character to be viewed more heroically, more pure, because we do not see inside his thoughts and motivations. That is critical to our perception of Robb and highly intentional of GRRM IMO.Exactly...hence the mis-directed Robb worship here. The HBO series depicts Robb as he was, not the unrealistic, idealistic un-human in the minds of the "Book Robb is so much better than HBO Robb" crew. GRRM left him out of POV for the reason of his short, unimpressive turn in the GoT, not so he could be idealized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Exactly...hence the mis-directed Robb worship here. The HBO series depicts Robb as he was, not the unrealistic, idealistic un-human in the minds of the "Book Robb is so much better than HBO Robb" crew. GRRM left him out of POV for the reason of his short, unimpressive turn in the GoT, not so he could be idealized.Robb worship? We are highly critical of Robb. It is just we could understand why he married Jeyne, while we may not agree. With Talisa, he is just immature and and forsakes his vows to the Freys, pissing on them like everyone else. I actually made a topic earlier discussing why the Freys were not completely wrong in their desire for vengeance.ETA: I should not say we. I believe I speak for a lot of people, but I shouldn't assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Robb worship? We are highly critical of Robb. I.Highly critical of HBO Robb vs. Book Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Highly critical of HBO Robb vs. Book Robb.No. Check the thread, both of them get their share of hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServantOnIce Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Highly critical of HBO Robb vs. Book Robb.Book Robb folks will feel sorry for, TV Robb folks will understand . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The reason it is a good refutation is that it is the only evidence available. There is no evidence that the northern lords would rebel against the king in the north because of how he got married, just opinions. There is very clear evidence that the lords of the north continued to fully support, respect, and follow their liege lord after he was married in a sept to a southern woman who followed the seven.Except Ned Stark was following through on a bethrothal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The only Lord who would give a rat's ass whom Robb married was Frey. Otherwise if he wasn't marrying into their family, it didn't matter to them, compared with all the other bonds of loyaly thay had, or should have had in the case of the Flayed Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bride of Winter Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I only got up to page 3 of this thread so apologies if this is completely irrelevant, but I don't like the idea that Robb getting married by a septon is telling of him further distancing himself from his upbringing.I don't know where people are getting the idea that book!Robb is reckless. Immaturity =/= recklessness. Robb only acted out once, and that was sleeping with Jeyne (which under the circumstances he can hardly be blamed for). Everything else he did strictly followed his upbringing and morals. I would even say that's his downfall. If anything, his immaturity stems from his not knowing what to do, and therefore solving his problems as if the world was ideal, rather than thinking things through and considering the world around him. For example, the fact that he tried to fix the Jeyne issue by marrying her, because that was "honorable" in his eyes and he was taught that being honorable comes above all else and will basically solve all of your problems. Robb's arc stands out because he lost the war as a good guy. He couldn't sink to everyone else's level and thought that being good and winning every battle would lead him to win the war, and that bit him in the ass.sorry that was pretty long-winded for one simple idea but what I'm saying is, Robb didn't die because he abandoned his upbringing for Jeyne, he died because he stubbornly refused to let go of his upbringing.which also happens to be problem #823948234 with the Jeyne-Talisa switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbelfast Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 No doubt it's been mentioned before but is 'Talisa' actually Jeyne pretending to be somebody else? There was a reluctance to go to The Crag if I remember correctly. That said, she told a convincing story of her days in Volantis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 That weighing one honorable choice as more honorable is a relativistic approach to morality. The starks believe in a thing being right or wrong, not more right or less right than another thing. That's your interpretation. I don't see it this way. I don't see how can you behave honorably without having a way to weight one act versus another when you have to choose. At the end of the day, you have to make a choice, and a honor code which doesn't give you some way to make the choice, is worhtless. Take Ned for example. For him not harming was first priority, higher than being honest with his king. Keeping his promise to his sister was also more important than being honest with his king for him. He clearly had his priorities when it came to honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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