To all the haters of post-Saltpans Arya chapters

[keelhaul]

...but I do agree that people tend to harp too much on the lack of action in the series of late.

I agree with that too, although I wouldn't say the majority of the readers are harping about the lack of action. Some people are.

[Lyanna Stark]

For the horribly stupid stuff Cat did I can accept no rationalization whatsoever. I understand her point and it's still horribly stupid and shortsighted.

Maybe the wrong thread, but out of interest, what stupid stuff did she do?

[keelhaul]

Maybe the wrong thread, but out of interest, what stupid stuff did she do?

The whole Bran assassination attempt that got spoonfed to her by LF made absolutely no sense. Absolutely no sense at all. I'm not saying she could've figured out what really happened in Winterfell (because it's a completely random event), I'm saying that she SHOULD have figured out that something is very fishy. So based on scant evidence she goes and takes Tyrion captive while half of her family is in KL. Knowing Tywin it's quite obvious that retribution will be certain.

I absolutely understand she is crushed because of what happened to Bran, her actions are fueled by extremely strong emotions but even without knowing later events, she got her family in a very shitty situation, very quickly. What she did was a high-risk low-return move that endangered her husband and her daughters and the Riverlands, while also risking a war.

[Queen Cersei I]

Oh yes. She wants power and the security that comes with power. She wants power and the possibilities that comes with power. She wants to be the Ghost in Harrenhal, she wants to take no shit from noone and drink people's blood if she so desires.

Autonomy, independence, and authority are not the same thing as power. Though you make a good point that power is often the simplest, most direct way for an individual to gain the first three.

It's true, but I know I like the Arya chapters precisely because Arya is turning into a psychopath.

And I like Arya's characterization precisely because she's not one. If she were a straight up psychopath, she'd be as boring as the "princess with a heart of gold" archetype you mention here. Because despite the vestiges of glamor that always linger around psychopathic types, at the end of the day many such characters are no more interesting that glamorized heroes.

Because I think Martin will actually subvert the archetype sightly in making her really morally bankrupt.

Well, if Arya is becoming "really morally bankrupt," then the following sentiment strikes me as strange to say the least:

"They should have killed him and not her."

Here, she is reflecting on what should have happened to the ugly little girl's abusive father.

What's so interesting about this statement? Because it simultaneously displays the fascinating dichotomy of Arya's character-- the fierceness, agression, and vengefullness that goes hand in hand with a thirst for justice and empathy for others.

The contrast of these different sides of Arya's mutifaceted character strike me as far more interesting that Arya being "really morally bankrupt"-- which strikes me as every bit as dull and cliched in its own way as the "princess with a heart of gold" archetype you mention here.

It's something we have argued to death back before ADWD. Some people (who fled the board in shame, when ADWD proved them wrong) even argued that Arya was so much of a "pure" avenger (batman style, I guess), that she did not kill Dareon. Heh.

I think it has been fairly obvious she killed Daeron since AFFC.

The reasons why she did this actually go a long way towards illustrating the complexities of her own character.

I know I have a thing for female characters who get some traditionally male power/characteristics, and that often overlaps with tomboys. I like reading that, it's like a guilty pleasure, but it would make Arya uninteresting to reduce her to that.

I think Arya's a fantastic character, and many of her internal struggles and diemnas transcend gender. However, her being a female in a feudal patriarchal society does add an interesting layer to the whole thing.

[Queen Cersei I]

Maybe the wrong thread, but out of interest, what stupid stuff did she do?

1. Acted on limited information

2. Clearly had a stubborn refusal to use her gift of clairvoyance to see how her sensible decisions were going to unpredictably end up in disaster 3 books down the line or so.

3. Accepted the centuries long practices demanded in her culture for the greater good of her family, rather than mounting a one woman protest against Walder Frey and the rest of the combined nobility of Westeros.

4. Probably leaves the bloody toilet seat up.

[Winter's Knight]

1. Acted on limited information

2. Clearly had a stubborn refusal to use her gift of clairvoyance to see how her sensible decisions were going to unpredictably end up in disaster 3 books down the line or so.

3. Accepted the centuries long practices demanded in her culture for the greater good of her family, rather than mounting a one woman protest against Walder Frey and the rest of the combined nobility of Westeros.

4. Probably leaves the bloody toilet seat up.

I'm out of likes, qft.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I like Arya, Sansa and Catelyn. I'm confused. Does this make me a sexist or not?

[keelhaul]

1. Acted on limited information

The problem wasn't acting on limited information. The problem was believing that said information was 1) valid 2) not limited. Most people (people as majority) do bad decisions by believing in 1) and 2). You really have to believe that Tyrion is a huge idiot to believe LF's story. Even then, his motives are still not rationalizable.

[kephv]

Autonomy, independence, and authority are not the same thing as power.

But she wants more than any of that. Arya wants what they're teaching in order to kill those on her list, and because she hates being powerless -- Arya hates the idea of not being able to do anything. She'll challenge them and say it isn't so, try to prove them wrong. For example, the KM challenging her saying he doesn't think she has what it takes to be one of them, and of course, her reaction is that she screams at him defiantly that she can give up anything. She wants power, really not only for security and the possibilities it'll give her, but for the sake of power itself.

[Lyanna Stark]

The problem wasn't acting on limited information. The problem was believing that said information was 1) valid 2) not limited. Most people (people as majority) do bad decisions by believing in 1) and 2). You really have to believe that Tyrion is a huge idiot to believe LF's story. Even then, his motives are still not rationalizable.

What reasons did she have to believe that the information was not valid or that it wasn't painting a truthful picture of reality?

[Castel]

The problem wasn't acting on limited information. The problem was believing that said information was 1) valid 2) not limited. Most people (people as majority) do bad decisions by believing in 1) and 2). You really have to believe that Tyrion is a huge idiot to believe LF's story. Even then, his motives are still not rationalizable.

At this point we didn't know that Tyrion was a wily snake. All we knew was that he was a dwarf with a sharp tongue and a disproportionate amount of bluster, he may well have been an idiot or a catspaw of Cersei or Jaime.

And Cat may have suffered from her expectations of how LF would have turned out. I mean, I doubt she could seperate that foolish but romantic boy from the man, especially when he holds things in. I mean, the last time she saw him must have colored her impressions. On top of that: what reason would he have to lie and risk both the Lannister and Stark clans' wrath?

[peash]

I don't think its power that Arya wants so much as something to belong to. In many of the chapters where the FM try to get Arya to back out it, she thinks about how she has no family left and how she's better off with the FM. While I do think that she still has an innate morality, by the time she kills the insurance broker she is also willing to suppress it in order to get to stay with the FM.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Martyr mentality + use of too much hyerpbole = trolling.

And I think that you need to be more sensitive to the implications of your posts. Every one of them in this thread has suggested that readers who prefer action characters are inferior in intelligence or sensitivity or reading skills or attention span to those who prefer introspective characters. These suggestions are unwarranted and insulting; you should not be surprised that some posters find them annoying. I was trying to make this point with humor; I'm sorry that I wasn't clear or that you didn't get the joke. In the interests of board peace I will say no more on this subject.

In general, action oriented characters are easier for people to like since they run around and "do stuff", while observers, character who suffers, have limited agency or in general are dedicated more to character development as opposed to action are less well liked. May I remind you here of all the Cat and Sansa hate and all the Dany hate post ADWD?

If you feel this is wrong, please post your argument for why this type of characters are in fact better liked. I would very much like to see it.

I like plot driven stories and that's why I'm attracted to the fantasy genre. Moving plots along generally requires characters to "do stuff." I believe the high ratings of the first three books can be attributed to the fact that they were full of people doing stuff. Catelyn, in fact, did a lot of stuff, some of it bordering on the implausible – kidnapping Tyrion? Really? Letting Jaime go? What? Believe me, any dislike I have for Catelyn's character is not based on her failure to do stuff; she went to war even though she didn't pick up a sword. And what's wrong with women who "do stuff?" If I recall correctly, Joan of Arc did stuff, as did Boadicea, and Cleopatra as did every famous and admired woman ever. Anyway, among the hundreds of characters in ASOIAF, there are only a few that could be described as introspective, so in my opinionit's not the people who like active characters who are reading the wrong books when they pick up ASOIAF, it's the people who like silent sufferers who should look elsewhere. I recommend Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights.

You don't favor Arya's character because she fulfills the "tomboy trope." I don't favor Sansa's character because she fulfills the oldest moldy trope of them all, the "damsel in distress." Face it, no one really expects her to get away from Littlefinger by herself. She'll be rescued by Sandor or Brienne or Jaime, or snatched by the Mad Mouse and need to be rescued from him, and on and on. That doesn't interest me.

I read Sansa's POVs very carefully because she was an observer of Ned's downfall, the Battle of Blackwater, the Purple Wedding, and the goings on at the Eyrie, but I failed to detect much character development. Sure, she's slightly less trusting than she was (although I bet Randa Royce turns her inside out), but contrary to popular opinion, she's not being taught to be a player by Littlefinger, she's being groomed by him to be his mistress and pawn. You'll see it if you read carefully and without projecting an unrealistic future on one of your favorite characters.

But even if her personality was developing at a faster pace, I just don't care. I'm too old to project all my hopes and dreams and sexual fantasies on the blank slate that is Sansa's character. I am not charmed by her passivity nor do I think it was her best strategy for survival. As I noted up thread, I could find better stories about young adult angst and development elsewhere, if I gave a damn. What I want is the plot to move, as I do in every fantasy I pick up, so yeah, I'm interested in characters who do stuff.

If I've just turned this into a Sansa thread I apologize.

[Castel]

But even if her personality was developing at a faster pace, I just don't care. I'm too old to project all my hopes and dreams and sexual fantasies on the blank slate that is Sansa's character. I am not charmed by her passivity nor do I think it was her best strategy for survival. As I noted up thread, I could find better stories about young adult angst and development elsewhere, if I gave a damn. What I want is the plot to move, as I do in every fantasy I pick up, so yeah, I'm interested in characters who do stuff.

So you do indeed have certain expectations of fantasy and don't like Arya because they're defied?

As for Sansa, lol. I have to jump into one of those "Sansa is becoming a player!" threads, maybe I'll find something I hadn't even considered.

[Lyanna Stark]

And I think that you need to be more sensitive to the implications of your posts. Every one of them in this thread has suggested that readers who prefer action characters are inferior in intelligence or sensitivity or reading skills or attention span to those who prefer introspective characters. These suggestions are unwarranted and insulting; you should not be surprised that some posters find them annoying. I was trying to make this point with humor; I'm sorry that I wasn't clear or that you didn't get the joke. In the interests of board peace I will say no more on this subject.

May I again highlight something I posted earlier: I was talking about expectations of the readers that there should be action since this is something that is often found within the fantasy genre. And now, let me borrow something you, yourself, wrote:

I like plot driven stories and that's why I'm attracted to the fantasy genre. Moving plots along generally requires characters to "do stuff."

You like the Fantasy genre because you like plot driven stories, yet ASOIAF is to a large degree a character driven story. A lot of its brilliance and finesse lie in its wonderfully drawn characters. To dismiss it as a standard work of Fantasy that ought to be about plot and action is to do it a disservice, because it is both. It has a lot of plot and action, but the thing that makes it stand head and shoulders above most of the competition is the way the characters are drawn.

So let me now get back to my initial point: people who assume that ASOIAF is about plot and action will be partially disappointed by some bits since it's not limited to this. It's about having the wrong expectations, which was exactly what I wrote in the above posts. Now you are jumping down my throat for claiming your expectations are wrong, yet you prove yourself you don't like Cat or Sansa, which proves my point: you don't like the more reflective characters since you cannot appreciate the character development angle.

That's fine, but it's also unfair to level that as a complaint against ASOIAF since it's you wanting it to be something it's not. That's a complain you should consider levelling at the author. If you want fast paced, action fantasy, there is an entire subforum dedicated to recommendations of SFF series and standalones and I am sure some of the recommendations there will fit your taste better.

You don't favor Arya's character because she fulfills the "tomboy trope." I don't favor Sansa's character because she fulfills the oldest moldy trope of them all, the "damsel in distress." Face it, no one really expects her to get away from Littlefinger by herself. She'll be rescued by Sandor or Brienne or Jaime, or snatched by the Mad Mouse and need to be rescued from him, and on and on. That doesn't interest me.

And Arya is rescued by Yoren, helped by Gendry, saved by Jaqen H'gar, then the BWB, then Sandor, then taken to Braavos with Jaqen's coin. Arya has been saved and helped just as much as Sansa.

What actions would make Sansa a more likeable character? If she took up a sword? Learnt magic?

Sure, she's slightly less trusting than she was (although I bet Randa Royce turns her inside out), but contrary to popular opinion, she's not being taught to be a player by Littlefinger, she's being groomed by him to be his mistress and pawn. You'll see it if you read carefully and without projecting an unrealistic future on one of your favorite characters.

Strangely, all those clever people in the Sansa reread threads must just be totally deluding themselves and projecting an unrealistic future onto their favourite character.

I can strongly recommend you to go through the re-read threads since they are very good and hold a huge amount of very insightful analysis of Sansa's character, which you may find useful since you seem to suffer from some confusion as to what her storyline is about. It could also highlight to you the fact that Sansa's and Arya's arcs run in parallel more often than not.

EDIT: Grammar

[Kevan Lannister]

Arya needs more chapters! Much more!

[Woman of War]

And I think that you need to be more sensitive to the implications of your posts. Every one of them in this thread has suggested that readers who prefer action characters are inferior in intelligence or sensitivity or reading skills or attention span to those who prefer introspective characters. These suggestions are unwarranted and insulting; you should not be surprised that some posters find them annoying. I was trying to make this point with humor; I'm sorry that I wasn't clear or that you didn't get the joke. In the interests of board peace I will say no more on this subject.

I like plot driven stories and that's why I'm attracted to the fantasy genre. Moving plots along generally requires characters to "do stuff." I believe the high ratings of the first three books can be attributed to the fact that they were full of people doing stuff. Catelyn, in fact, did a lot of stuff, some of it bordering on the implausible – kidnapping Tyrion? Really? Letting Jaime go? What? Believe me, any dislike I have for Catelyn's character is not based on her failure to do stuff; she went to war even though she didn't pick up a sword. And what's wrong with women who "do stuff?" If I recall correctly, Joan of Arc did stuff, as did Boadicea, and Cleopatra as did every famous and admired woman ever. Anyway, among the hundreds of characters in ASOIAF, there are only a few that could be described as introspective, so in my opinionit's not the people who like active characters who are reading the wrong books when they pick up ASOIAF, it's the people who like silent sufferers who should look elsewhere. I recommend Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights.

You don't favor Arya's character because she fulfills the "tomboy trope." I don't favor Sansa's character because she fulfills the oldest moldy trope of them all, the "damsel in distress." Face it, no one really expects her to get away from Littlefinger by herself. She'll be rescued by Sandor or Brienne or Jaime, or snatched by the Mad Mouse and need to be rescued from him, and on and on. That doesn't interest me.

I read Sansa's POVs very carefully because she was an observer of Ned's downfall, the Battle of Blackwater, the Purple Wedding, and the goings on at the Eyrie, but I failed to detect much character development. Sure, she's slightly less trusting than she was (although I bet Randa Royce turns her inside out), but contrary to popular opinion, she's not being taught to be a player by Littlefinger, she's being groomed by him to be his mistress and pawn. You'll see it if you read carefully and without projecting an unrealistic future on one of your favorite characters.

But even if her personality was developing at a faster pace, I just don't care. I'm too old to project all my hopes and dreams and sexual fantasies on the blank slate that is Sansa's character. I am not charmed by her passivity nor do I think it was her best strategy for survival. As I noted up thread, I could find better stories about young adult angst and development elsewhere, if I gave a damn. What I want is the plot to move, as I do in every fantasy I pick up, so yeah, I'm interested in characters who do stuff.

If I've just turned this into a Sansa thread I apologize.

Lost a post, but thank you, this had to be said.

And the Sansa threads are definitely not recommended for people with weak nerves, you can easily get bashed there for advocating misogyny if you have an opinion differing from the majority.

But you are right, this is an Arya thread.

Back to topic: And yes, there should be more Arya chapters

[butterbumps!]

<snip>

But here's the question: is power what she wants?

Again, I both agree and disagree. Your statement that Arya would have been repressed and held back as a typical highborn wife is utterly true. However, I see her current situation as far less fulfilling than you do.

When we first met her, Arya was straining against conventions that bound her as a highborn girl. As noted, this role led her to be encouraged by those around her to repress areas of her basic nature. Similarly, now she is supossed to be the cold ninja warrior assassin who worships death. Though she seems somewhat less frustrated than before, I definitely see some parts of her being repressed in this situation as well.

IMO, Arya has never not been herself-- she has actually retained her basic personality with it's many great trait and human failings throughout the book. However, neither the situation she was in to begin with or the one she is in now have offered perfect freedom or true happiness. I appreciate your argument that the social repressions of her society sort of kept her from fully becoming herself before; yet I'd argue that she's in the same scenario now, only with different constraints.
<snip>


This is very interesting (and I like your other posts and the snipped stuff here too). I think that I've read Arya's progression with a rather similar interpretation to yours (highlights: not becoming a psychopath, the FM stint is not that liberating as it seems, that she's seeking agency, not power). Where we diverge is that I think I actually like her post-Saltpans chapters more than what comes before! *Quick caveat: I do love the Faceless Men storyline and reading about the culture of Braavos. I'm shamelessly invested in the historical and magical themes, so her Braavos chapters gave me bits of added satisfaction to that end.

I know that Arya is usually seen as "actionable," and she expresses this in a physical capacity (water dancing, carrying a sword, running around the vortex that is the Riverlands). But in terms of character building, I think she makes the greatest strides toward maturity upon reaching Braavos. While I admired her cleverness, "class blindness," and will to survive, prior to Braavos I felt she was swept in a whirlwind of action around her (not exactly unlike Sansa). LyannaStark outlined my thoughts on this exactly above.

I don’t know how to say this without making it sound as though I am criticizing Arya, or expecting her not to act like a child, because that’s not what I’m trying to do. Despite what I consider her finer qualities, she begins as a child with wildness, an angry streak, a lack of discipline and little notion of consequences (as most children would). With Syrio, she begins to realize that the world doesn’t end at her limited view of it; their lessons give her discipline and skills of survival, which she further fosters throughout the Riverlands.

What I like about Braavos is that I believe Arya is becoming stronger and world-wise more quickly. I have a nerdy appreciation for those who devote themselves to physical or mental rigor, and in particular, I find great value in many of her lessons (minus the obvious assassination business, I mean). She’s learning to “see with her eyes,” to appreciate subtlety, to question the world around her, and in so doing, to question herself. Now, she already had the seeds of some of this before, but I thoroughly enjoy watching her hone these skills and become that much more competent with them.

I agree that the FM is an institution and that she is not a completely free agent here, but I also think the lessons she’s learning are potentially more important for her character (given her inherent traits) than those she'd learn in Westerosi society, or even living among the “wild” BWB. I value discipline over “wildness,” though I want to point out I do not mean I favor mindless obedience or meaningless ritual. Regarding Arya’s Braavos chapters, I see this education serving her better in the longterm than less structured, ad hoc lessons she might otherwise have if she continued as a rough-and-tumble "street urchin." Further, unless one counts the Kindly Man, Arya has achieved a form of self-control, at least in terms of not being under the care of a male “rescuer,” despite her still being part of an institution that withholds her freedoms in other ways.

I’m not sure I’m doing this justice at the moment, so I’ll leave it here. And again, I’m not trying to suggest that I expected more of earlier Arya, only that her Braavos arc piqued my interest even that much more.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

You like the Fantasy genre because you like plot driven stories, yet ASOIAF is to a large degree a character driven story. A lot of its brilliance and finesse lie in its wonderfully drawn characters. To dismiss it as a standard work of Fantasy that ought to be about plot and action is to do it a disservice, because it is both. It has a lot of plot and action, but the thing that makes it stand head and shoulders above most of the competition is the way the characters are drawn.

You render me typeless, you really do. More happens in AGOT – the appearance of supernatural beings, the attempted murder of a child, adultery, kidnapping, coups, executions (including that of the person I thought was the hero of the piece, which still shocks me) escapes upon escapes, battles, murder, barbarian weddings, the death of several kings, and the birth of freaking dragons -- than happens in some complete trilogies. IMO, no story that depends so much on shock, surprise and cliffhangers can be described as character driven. Yes the story is told through the point of view of different characters, and those characters are indeed interesting, but as far as I can tell, most asoiaf readers dread spoilers because they want to discover what happens next for themselves. I call that plot driven.

So let me now get back to my initial[] point: people who assume that ASOIAF is about plot and action WILL be partially disappointed by some bits since it's not limited to this. It's about having the wrong expectations, which was exactly what I wrote in the above posts. Now you are jumping down my throat for claiming your expectations are wrong, yet you prove yourself you don't like Cat or Sansa, which proves my point: you don't like the more reflective characters since you cannot appreciate the character development angle.

That's fine, but it's also unfair to level that as a complaint against ASOIAF since it's you wanting it to be something it's not. That's a complain[t] you should consider levelling at the author. If you want fast paced, action fantasy, there is an entire subforum dedicated to recommendations of SFF series and standalones and I am sure some of the recommendations there will fit your taste better.

This statement confuses me. You asked someone to explain why action characters were better liked than than "observers, character that suffer or in general are dedicated more to character development." I gave you my opinion – action characters drive the plot, and I always want to know what happens next. You don't find this an adequate explanation. I can't do anything about that. However I object to the statement that I had the wrong expectations about ASOIAF. There's plenty of boy-howdy satisfying action in the series, and I would include Arya's Braavos chapters in these. And I don't think anyone has to like all the characters in a book to like it, in fact, I think the opposite is true. You, however, take the opportunity to insult me again by stating that I can't appreciate the character development angle. I certainly do appreciate character development when there is some. I don't see it in either Sansa or Cat.

I've never made a secret about not liking Sansa or Catelyn, but as I said, I would not put Catelyn in the reflective category. In fact, I think her problem is that she isn't reflective enough. She goes off half-cocked, running all over Westeros and in the process she sets up the situations that cause the Red Wedding, the rape of the Riverlands, the virtual imprisonment of one daughter and the disappearance of the other, among other things. I see her getting sadder as events unroll (and in spite of my other opinions I grieve for her losses) but I don't see her getting wiser.

And thank you, I have a rather extensive fantasy library already. It includes books by Abercrombie, Baaker, Butcher, Clarke, Gaiman, Harkaway, Hodgell, and so on through the alphabet to Valente (now there's a woman who can write character-driven fantasy) and Zelazney. I think I know my fantasy and I know what I like.

And Arya is rescued by Yoren, helped by Gendry, saved by Jaqen H'gar, then the BWB, then Sandor, then taken to Braavos with Jaqen's coin. Your point? Arya has been saved and helped just as much as Sansa.

.

Arya also found a way out of the Red Keep and used it, survived in the slums of King's Landing with no protection or money, ran back into a fire to save three men, thus earning her iron coin, lived in the wilderness on grubs and worms after the death of Yoren, made weasel soup, served Roose Bolton and lived to tell about it, planned and executed the escape from Harrenhal, tried to charge into the Twins to save her mother, spent weeks with Sandor, and yes, got herself to Braavos using the iron coin and, once there, sallied forth into a strange city, not knowing the language, to become Cat of the Canals. This is not the behavior of your classic damsel in distress.

What actions would make Sansa a more likeable character? If she took up a sword? Learnt magic?

How about doing something. Anything.

Will you, really? Strangely, all those clever people in the Sansa reread threads must just be totally deluding themselves and projecting an unrealistic future onto their favourite character. You talk about generalising about inferior intelligence*** yet what is it you are doing here, if not accusing a huge group of posters on this board to suffer from just that?

I can strongly recommend you to go through the re-read threads since it holds a huge amount of very good analysis of Sansa's character, which you may find useful since you seem to suffer from some confusion as to what her storyline is about. It could also highlight to you the fact that Sansa's and Arya's arcs run in parallel more often than not.

Non sequitur alert: will I what? And I'm not saying Sansa fans lack intelligence, I'm saying they lack maturity, a condition that will be cured by the passage of time. Alas, I will be dead and buried by the time some of them acquire it. Meanwhile, I will continue to avoid Sansa threads for the reasons Woman of War gave, and for my health. At my time of life I really can't afford to lose any more brain cells.

Can I also add that I am really, really amused that you think I have not read Sansa's chapters "carefully enough". It's unintentionally hilarious.

Oh, sweetling, there was nothing unintentional in or about that statement. I just hope you get all its meanings.

[Errant Bard]

Autonomy, independence, and authority are not the same thing as power. Though you make a good point that power is often the simplest, most direct way for an individual to gain the first three.

I never said they were, but I think it's what empowerment covers all the same; means and results overlap a lot on this subject. I'm not too sure what definition you have for the word, but I don't think we disagree either way.

I would say, in that vein, that power is not discipline or violence, neither is it skill or knowledge, and I didn't have magical power in mind when I mentioned the word.

It's a pretty nebulous word to argue on whether Arya wants it or not, then... I think Arya wants to have the skill to kill anyone, like Jaqen. I think she above all want enough knowledge, connections, autonomy, independence, authority, skill confidence, training, magic and so on, to not be forced to "be a mouse" like she was in Harrenhal, to not be forced to flee and let a Syrio or a Ned die, to never be subjected to a damsel in distress role (like in the first three books), dragged behind a different guy each day. She wants to be the Ghost in Harrenhal. It's a wish for herself and only her. Individual power. Enough for other people to not have power over her, but for her to have power over them.

She wants power.

And I like Arya's characterization precisely because she's not one. If she were a straight up psychopath, she'd be as boring as the "princess with a heart of gold" archetype you mention here. Because despite the vestiges of glamor that always linger around psychopathic types, at the end of the day many such characters are no more interesting that glamorized heroes.

I disagree. What makes a character interesting is the way he is written. I take for example Patrick Bateman in American Psycho; perhaps not your cup of tea, but the character makes the book, and he is a psychopath. I could also mention, off the top of my head, The Picture of Dorian Gray, A Clockwork Orange, Richard III (reminds me more of Tyrion this one though), or even the Joker, if we go into recent films. Anyway, deranged characters can be quite fascinating.

The thing is, with Arya, if she ends up being the princess with a heart of gold, with a somewhat edgy background, she'll be bland, one among myriads in the literary landscape, and this is indeed what risks happening if Martin glosses over the state of mind one needs to be to be a murderer (what Arya is right now, without any contestation possible, after the insurance salesman.) That would really be a mediocre development, where the kid goes through hardship, trains with some organisation and comes back with powers, but unchanged, before saving the world. Yawn. I don't really care about that kind of stuff, I've already seen it in, like, Sanderson or Eddings. Not that such arc cannot be good, I'm thinking in particularly of The Diamond Age, which I love despite everything, but again, the core point is how it's written. As it is, Arya is written like a C'nedra, not like a Nell.

Well, if Arya is becoming "really morally bankrupt," then the following sentiment strikes me as strange to say the least:

"They should have killed him and not her."

Here, she is reflecting on what should have happened to the ugly little girl's abusive father.

There is a difference between becoming and being, though. And there is more than one way to be bankrupt. There is a false dichotomy at work here: it's not because you are not Ramsay Bolton that you are a saint.

What's so interesting about this statement? Because it simultaneously displays the fascinating dichotomy of Arya's character-- the fierceness, agression, and vengefullness that goes hand in hand with a thirst for justice and empathy for others.

I don't see empathy, all she cares is hurting, not saving. Justice yeah, but it doesn't prevent her from killing the insurance salesman. No slope was ever that slippery.

The contrast of these different sides of Arya's mutifaceted character strike me as far more interesting that Arya being "really morally bankrupt"-- which strikes me as every bit as dull and cliched in its own way as the "princess with a heart of gold" archetype you mention here.

Meh. Being a definite bad guy (for those who care to see) doesn't mean you cannot stay multifaceted, as the examples I mentioned earlier demonstrate, I hope, and meanwhile she could be more original both in her internal character arc and in the interactions she would have with the other "heroes" if she didn't pull herself up as the spunky girl of the world saviours teen gang.

In any case, I see a lot of what people bring up as empathy as pure manipulation, nowadays. More and more, it's not binary. Once she has what she wants, knowledge, now, she could easily kill the person, with no second thought. As far as I can tell, she is a live Stoneheart, she has her orphanage or Meribald moments, but beyond that, people get stabbed because they piss her off, and they don't even need to offend her personally. A murderous short fuse is not a good guy attribute.

I think it has been fairly obvious she killed Daeron since AFFC.

Not really relevant. A good number of people didn't think it was obvious, the thread are still on the forum, if you care to find them. I tend to find their stance emblematic, in their excess: they deluded themselves because they didn't want Arya to be "evil", and I always find an echo of them when comes the time to discuss Arya's motivations (It's always justice, empathy, self-defense, how she has a right to (backed by some legalese mumbo jumbo), and it always eludes that Arya doesn't even think like that)

And I'm not saying Sansa fans lack intelligence, I'm saying they lack maturity, a condition that will be cured by the passage of time.

Yes, you will certainly grow out of that opinion, eventually.