From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa III

[Lyanna Stark]

Of course, the easiest explanation here would be—GRRM does not mean to portray Sansa’s loss of her identity, deeply held feminine pride, and (reasonable) sense of entitlement about the sort of man she’s going to marry. He is merely portraying how Sansa has been forced into this submission by those around her, and is portraying this as sad/ bad. However, if that is the case, riddle me this—why the heck did GRRM portray all those aspects of Sansa—slight social snobbery; awareness of her own birth; pride in her beauty; and, perhaps most of all, willingness to go past her own father to secure the mate she feels she deserves—as so bloody negative to begin with? In AGOT? Because, try as I might, I can’t help but feel that the negative reaction of the fandom to Sansa before AFFC is due to how she is portrayed by the author. Once again, I think the quotes I’ve chose here sort of speak for themselves.

Two reasons:

1. Politics of class. Despite being medieval and dealing in a completely overwhelming way with the nobility and very little with the smallfolk, there is no denying that there is a preoccupation with the notion of class and class superiority. We see this when several of the noble characters get smacked around in roles where they are not nobles any more, or where their noble birth won't help them. It happens to Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion and even Cersei during her walk of shame. This, to me, is a fairly clearcut lefitst point of view (I live in a basically socialdemocratic country, we love this stuff and live by it. :P ) since the type of privilige the nobles take for granted is seen as evil. Sansa suffers from this a lot in AGOT. Ned gets mostly absolved, because with him there's a sense of a mutual relationship: he rules them [the people], but they look to him for guidance and he is also bound by laws, regulations, traditions and honour, which he follows to the letter, so he really acts more as an executive of a social contract, he isn't the one forcing a social contract on people. In the south the nobility as we have seen have to large degrees forsaken any social contract and act far more as oppressors than as a mutual part in an agreement.

Now, I am firmly in the camp who really, really blames Septa Mordane for much of Sansa's silliness. Rereading Cat's AGOT chapters and her asking about Arya and Septa Mordane is rude and sniffs, and how she told people Arya had the hands of a blacksmith, while praising Sansa to the skies. WTF Septa?? I think a lot of Arya's resentment wrt Sansa and a lot of Sansa's naivite can be blamed on this woman. Cat's main culpability is that she seems to not notice how far it's gone, perhaps because as a mother, she simply loves her children because they are her children. She can see their strengths and weaknesses, but to her they are her sons and daughters so it just gives them different flavours (I also got the impression she was immensely proud of her children, every single one of them). I never got the impression that Cat favoured Sansa over Arya in that sense, while the Septa clearly does.

I'd say the Septa is in many ways to blame for Sansa's class consciousness, but also her parents' assumption that she'd be a good lady and marry some high lord. There was no need for her to learn how Ned ruled, or perhaps they thought there was time for that later.

i'm not convinced this is an isolated female problem either, since the thing people find most sympathetic about Littlefinger is how he was wronged because of his lower birth and they appreciate how he has rised in power despite humble origins, i.e. the best part of Littlefinger is his defying of the class system, which is described as unfair, limiting and restrictive.

2. The second reason Sansa is set up as a naive emptyheaded girl is that GRRM was looking to tear the damsel in distress/pretty girl trope down, I think, and to set her up as a paralell and part inverse to Jaime's character in the whole Beauty and the Beast storylines of Brienne/Jaime and Sansa/Sandor. Just like Sansa, Jaime's arrogance and conceit is brutally broken and his view of himself and of his place in the world is changed. Sansa finds out she is only a claim. Jaime finds out he is only a sword.

For us to change our opinions on Sansa we, the readers, need her to be if not someone we dislike at least someone we really disagree with at first. Hence we get the disagreeable bits of Sansa first where she thinks disdainfully of Arya, she's class concsious, she's naive. Later on when we learn more about her, we also learn that she loves her family, she is a kind and compassionate person, she's honourable and believes in justice. This way of presenting the storylines is not chance, I think. We're meant to facepalm a bit at AGOT Sansa, just as we're meant to think Sandor is a mean brute and Jaime simply a murderer of children and kings.

[Lummel]

I concur in the class analysis (except that I disagree over Littlefinger, he's a noble from the beginning of the story hardly a defier of the class/estate/status system, but he is extremely conscious of being not considered equal to the Tullys, well not good enough for the eldest daughter of the house, - which is interesting in how Romantic and unrealistic his views and expectations are there are probably barely a couple of dozen houses whose son would have been considered good enough for Catelyn Tully by old Hoster).

The other factor is pride, Sansa is in the beginning aligned with the Lannisters, but pride and consciousness of status is I think a reoccurrant weak point for many of the noble families we see (Walder Frey anyone).

I agree with HM Queen Cersei I that Sansa is put through a process of being broken...but in my opinion that's true of all the Stark siblings. All of them get their illusions and dreams smashed. But I don't think that is particularly linked to the femininity of Sansa's tastes - she is still appreciative of a pretty dress and ribbon combination in AFFC. What happens to all of them is that their childish illusions are rubbed up and down against the grater of reality. At least Sansa is still alive.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ah but Lummel, Littlefinger is basically a Middle Class person here jockeying to be part of Old Money upper class, don't you think? Of course, he's not part of the small folk/working class/oppressed faceless masses of the proletariat (in fact he's as quick as any to use and abuse the proletariat), but he definitely stands for some sort of more meritocratic thinking, especially when he's disdainful of Cersei because she relies too much on her birth.

While he enjoys the fact that he has a certain rank, he is also very conscious of the overall class structure and that there are rungs on the ladder above him. Which he covets and he feels the people inhabiting it are not as worthy as he is.

I agree with HM Queen Cersei I that Sansa is put through a process of being broken...but in my opinion that's true of all the Stark siblings. All of them get their illusions and dreams smashed. But I don't think that is particularly linked to the femininity of Sansa's tastes - she is still appreciative of a pretty dress and ribbon combination in AFFC. What happens to all of them is that their childish illusions are rubbed up and down against the grater of reality. At least Sansa is still alive.

Very true, but it does tie into a critique of buying into what a Lady ought to be and act, without putting any deeper thoughts into what this means and how it affects position in society and the projection of power. I think the reason Arya seems more modern is because of her underdog capacity, she has already started to question these things in AGOT (again, thanks Septa Mordane). Had Arya been the better pupil, the defter hand at embroidery, or just almost as good as her sister, I doubt we would have seen her question the role of the traditional lady. She questions it mainly due to selfish reasons - she does not fit into it, hence she rejects it and questions it.

[Lummel]

No I don't. arguably he might see himself as a meritocratic figure but we can see that everything he has achieved was due to his noble status and family connections. It was those which led to him being fostered at Riverrun in the first place and later got him the Gulltown customs job not any intrinsic merit.

What I think he is trying to do is convert his social standing and power based on influence and personal connections to power based on wealth. It's manoeuvring within the elite, although I agree that the striving of one of the second tier two hundred or so families to be accounted equal to one of the top half-dozen to a dozen or so families is frightfully arriviste from a certain point of view.

[Lyanna Stark]

What, no Littlefinger the Marxist hero? :crying: I shall have to go back to China Mieville on this. (I actually agree with you that he sees himself as a meritocratic figure more than he actually is.)

To return to one of the earlier points Brashcandy raised:

Sansa - more child than woman, or more woman than child? Discuss. (Raksha and I have been debating this a bit :P

Like a lot of other people I think in this, Sansa has had no real choice. Just like Jon is forced to kill the boy and let the man be born, I think Sansa has had to kill the girl and let the woman be born. She's been forced into a role that was made for an adult woman way before she should have, and she'd have to deal with everything that brought with it, of arranged marriages, facing Tyrion in the marriage bed :stillsick: , the realistic side of court intrigue, her own value and worth and lastly also a far more realistic (and often downright scary) side of love and sex.

It seems as of AFFC as she is processing the information and experiences she has gained and starts to make use of them. I believe Queen Cersei I pointed out before that Sansa's last ASOS chapter is the last that feels as if she is actually a child. As of AFFC, it really has a different flavour, and I agree. Sansa has forever passed over the treshold to adulthood and cannot go back.

[Queen Cersei I]

Two reasons:

1. Politics of class. Despite being medieval and dealing in a completely overwhelming way with the nobility and very little with the smallfolk, there is no denying that there is a preoccupation with the notion of class and class superiority.

When the shoe fits. And when (it seems) the shoe is a high heeled glass slipper made for women.

Yet, there are numerous instances of GRRM portraying people like Tyrion as victims of the foolish, vicious smallfolk and their ingratitude. Honestly, it seems he holds Sansa up to a higher moral standard then he does with Tyrion, Jaime, and yes, even Ned (who, if you pay close attention to his chapters, is actually one of the bigger snobs in the books; massively out of touch with the smallfolk.)

I would quote again, but I already did quite a bit of that. The issue is for me that GRRM's portrayal of Sansa-- especially in AGOT-- seems overtly less like realistic class politics, more like portraying Sansa as petty, small, and foolish.

Now, I am firmly in the camp who really, really blames Septa Mordane for much of Sansa's silliness.

Really? Personally, I'm in the camp that sees Septa Mordane as yet another victim of GRRM's general tendency to portray conventionally feminine pursuits, hobbies, or decorum as ridiculous and insipid, or, at best, with indulgent condescension. She is also a victim of being a (presumably) not hot middle aged woman in a GRRM novel, which does not bode well for how she's going to be portrayed.

Seriously, I think it's fair to hold the Septa responsible for Sansa's beliefs WRT social class. In my mind, Septa Mordane is just a middle aged lady trying her best to do a thankless job and intermitently losing her temper. Personally, I don't recall her ever having a single comment WRT social class, so I'm not sure how she could have indoctorated Sansa with a number of "snobbish" opinions.

Now, I am firmly in the camp who really, really blames Septa Mordane for much of Sansa's silliness. Rereading Cat's AGOT chapters and her asking about Arya and Septa Mordane is rude and sniffs, and how she told people Arya had the hands of a blacksmith, while praising Sansa to the skies. WTF Septa?? I think a lot of Arya's resentment wrt Sansa and a lot of Sansa's naivite can be blamed on this woman. Cat's main culpability is that she seems to not notice how far it's gone, perhaps because as a mother, she simply loves her children because they are her children. She can see their strengths and weaknesses, but to her they are her sons and daughters so it just gives them different flavours (I also got the impression she was immensely proud of her children, every single one of them). I never got the impression that Cat favoured Sansa over Arya in that sense, while the Septa clearly does.

The source of Septa Mordane's favortism of Sansa is not hard to discover. Arya is a tomboy, and clearly holds most conventionally feminine activities in contempt, having little patience with them. Outspoken as she is, I could hardly see her keeping her opinions about how "dumb" needlepoint and the like is from Septa Mordane. So, Arya loathes conventionally feminine acivities-- the very activities that Septa Mordane has been hired to teach her. In addition to being told by Arya that all the skills she's trying to teach the girls are pointless, etc, Arya also feels a great deal of personal contempt for the Septa. She says to Ned, "I hate the septa! She's horrible!" Again, I can't see Arya disguising these feelings from the Septa.

If you were the Septa, which child would you favor-- the sweet, courteous one who adored the hobbies you were teaching, treated you with respect, and showed skill in what you taught her; or the one who has no patience for what you're teaching her, and continually mocks you and your life work?

Don't get me wrong--I am by no means trying to demonize Arya for acting like 9 year old girl. However, under the circumstances, I can see the Septa's one rude comment, "Arya has the hands of a blacksmith," as more than simply Septa Mordane being a sadistic bitch to her charges. Her words were rather immature, but, under the circumstances, understandable.

Secondly, regarding Septa Mordane being responsible for Sansa's class attitudes-- perhaps I am forgetting something, however, if there was a scene featuring Septa Mordane ever talking about class, I must have missed it. From what I remember, she taught Sansa courtesies, overheard Sansa and Arya talking as they sewed in Winterfell and asked them what was up, attended the tournament with Sansa, was eventually beheaded with very little ceremony. Honestly, the only "bad" thing Septa Mordane really did was offscreen-- she said that Arya had the hands of a blacksmith. Other than that, I don't recall any wildly inappropriate behavior from her. Furthermore, I'm not sure what favoring Arya over Sansa has to do with class-- perhaps her comment was meant to denigrate blacksmiths/ the working class, I guess. However, it seems more likely that she was referring to the commonly known muscular, strong "manly" occupation of blacksmith to contrast it with the delicacy needed for sewing and other finer tasks.

[Lummel]

...it does tie into a critique of buying into what a Lady ought to be and act, without putting any deeper thoughts into what this means and how it affects position in society and the projection of power. I think the reason Arya seems more modern is because of her underdog capacity, she has already started to question these things in AGOT (again, thanks Septa Mordane). Had Arya been the better pupil, the defter hand at embroidery, or just almost as good as her sister, I doubt we would have seen her question the role of the traditional lady. She questions it mainly due to selfish reasons - she does not fit into it, hence she rejects it and questions it.

We concentrate too much on questions of gender and class and ignore the horrible reality of the oppression of ten percent of the population by the ninety percent, lets remember here that Arya is left handed ;) had she been right handed her stitching would have been neater and our story different...The modernity appeals to the more democratically minded reader, but it is established in text too.Off the top of my head three attitudes current among the nobles we see are: we have the bluest blood therefore ruling is our right (the Lannister, Viserys type view), showing the velvet glove is the best approach, if we are loved our authority is all the greater (the margaery tyrell view), finally The Ned's attitude that authority is a duty, loyalty and respect have to be earned from your people and are earnt by giving loyalty and respect.Arya follows The Ned's example here. He has Mikken or Poole and other of his men sit at the High Table with him and talks with them, shows publically that he respects and honours them. Arya has picked up from this that it is ok to rub shoulders with anyone and to listen to the experts.Sansa, like you said Lyanna, is too much influenced by Septa Mordane who is obviously a Daily Mail reader (sorry that's an untranslatable concept I fear)!

[Lyanna Stark]

Don't get me wrong--I am by no means trying to demonize Arya for acting like 9 year old girl. However, under the circumstances, I can see the Septa's one rude comment, "Arya has the hands of a blacksmith," as more than simply Septa Mordane being a sadistic bitch to her charges. Her words were rather immature, but, under the circumstances, understandable.

She makes more than one rude comment though. Septa Mordane clearly favours Sansa and fawns over her, while putting Arya down to Cat, and further to Arya's face. I don't think it's wrong for the Septa to have a favourite, but if she cannot control her snide remarks, she is simply a shit teacher and should not be in the position she is in. This is irrelevant of gender btw. It's not a female trait to have favourites. A teacher should be patient, explain and encourage, not be rude, snide and make her pupils feel worthless, which is exactly how she does with Arya. Further, she enhances Arya's worthlessness to Cat, which I think is a way of hiding her own failure as a teacher.

I also completely disagree that her words were understandable. She is there to teach Arya, not to make her feel horrible about herself. In doing so, she is actively failing in her duties.

Secondly, regarding Septa Mordane being responsible for Sansa's class attitudes-- perhaps I am forgetting something, however, if there was a scene featuring Septa Mordane ever talking about class, I must have missed it. From what I remember, she taught Sansa courtesies, overheard Sansa and Arya talking as they sewed in Winterfell and asked them what was up, attended the tournament with Sansa, was eventually beheaded with very little ceremony. Honestly, the only "bad" thing Septa Mordane really did was offscreen-- she said that Arya had the hands of a blacksmith. Other than that, I don't recall any wildly inappropriate behavior from her. Furthermore, I'm not sure what favoring Arya over Sansa has to do with class-- perhaps her comment was meant to denigrate blacksmiths/ the working class, I guess. However, it seems more likely that she was referring to the commonly known muscular, strong "manly" occupation of blacksmith to contrast it with the delicacy needed for sewing and other finer tasks.

She does not talk about class, but she makes clear distinctions about class and appearances at the Tourney of the Hand where she is disdainful of Jory Cassel's drab outfit (and I dare say lack of knighthood) and also her reaction to Sansa failing to recognise Lord Baelish. The Septa is here very clearly class conscious. As Sansa was a very good student, we can also assume that a lot of her preconceived notions about worth based on rank comes from her Septa.

EDIT: sorry if it was confusing, I don't think favouring Sansa over Arya has anything to do with class per see, but the view the Septa is perpetuating is a more southern view than The Neds northern one, where the social contract is something all parts wish to uphold, while in the South there is a more single-sided social contract where the nobles exploit more than in the North and the smallfolk gain less from the whole thing.

Yet, there are numerous instances of GRRM portraying people like Tyrion as victims of the foolish, vicious smallfolk and their ingratitude.

This I am confused by though. What are you referring to here? The "masses"? The same "masses" who were about to tear Sansa from her horse and rape and/or kill her? Their foolishness or ingratitude is more generally aimed at the nobility than at Tyrion specifically, and can be said to be a sign that the underclass is unhappy with the brutal rule.

[Winter's Knight]

This I am confused by though. What are you referring to here? The "masses"? The same "masses" who were about to tear Sansa from her horse and rape and/or kill her? Their foolishness or ingratitude is more generally aimed at the nobility than at Tyrion specifically, and can be said to be a sign that the underclass is unhappy with the brutal rule.

I believe she's referring to Tyrion musing on how the smallfolk hate him, in spite of all he's done for them.

[Woman of War]

There is still so much room in Sansa's arc to manoeuvre for the author. So far she has always been in a position where she, whatever happened to her, has been treated as highborn, either as daughter of highest nobility, as most valuable hostage or as the wife of a nobleman - or as bastard daughter of a less high nobleman but still very advanced on the social scale. Sansa has had some, until now superficial, contacts downwards but finally there has always been somone who did the everyday chores for her.

Some character arcs have been shaped by a total, at least temporary, loss of their social position, the higher the fall the more spectacular. Beginning with the embarassment not to be able to light a fire or not knowing how to prepare a meal. And the experience of being pushed around as hostage - you are valuable goods that cannot be destroyed - is very much different from being pushed around as e. g. kitchen girl where you have no more worth than the carrot beside you.

I think her character development would get a serious push if she found herself in a situation at the bottom of the social scale, forced to deal with mere physical survival, bereft of that incredible plot armor GRRM has granted her against getting dangerously sexually attacked. This plot armor so far was relatively believable because her virginity is a valuable asset on the power market and Martin's determination to keep her maidenhead intact was backed up by her storyline. I admit I would like to see her (example only) forced to flee in servants' clothes, making her living in whatever kitchen, listening to kitchengirl chat, leaning about basic things like starvation and frost. Learning to defend herself with cunning and violence if necessary. Forming alliances nobody would have expected. Well, learn. The fascination of Arya's arc certainly is not that she is a "tomboy", whatever that means, gender debates should definitely be behind that simplifying characterisation. The fascination of Arya's arc lies in the fact that Martin puts her in so many different scenarios and in every single one she takes something to learn out of it. So many experiences are still locked to Sansa, I very much hope the author will take her there.

[1234567]

Arya has picked up from this that it is ok to rub shoulders with anyone and to listen to the experts.Sansa, like you said Lyanna, is too much influenced by Septa Mordane who is obviously a Daily Mail reader (sorry that's an untranslatable concept I fear)!

:agree: Septa Mordane is definitely a Dail Mail reader! I also don't know how to translate that concept.

[peash]

QueenCersei I don't belive you are referring to the same Ned Stark that I read about, because the Ned Stark I read about had dinner with at least one of his servants every night and listened to the things they had to teach him, was distraught when one of his men, a close friend, was killed, and who was so offended by a knight going around killing smallfolk that he started (or at least continued) a war against the most powerful man in Westeros.

Having gotten that tangential rant out of the way I also disagree with you that the portrayal of women in the show is sexist. Sansa starts out as a fairytale princess - aware of social structures and graces and without a whole lot of life experience. GRRM then goes on to demonstrate what would happen to a fairytale princess in the real world. By AFFC Sansa having gained life experience, and so is much more realistic about her relationships with others.

As you point out, Sansa's personality changes between ASOS and AFFC, is scared shitless of Littlefinger, who shes now seen kill two people, and so is naturally afraid of him and doesn't have as much mental resistance to going along with his plans. Also, she goes back and forth from mental fierceness (e.g. at the beginning of the story and when she is with Lysa) and mental timidness (when she fears she's about to be raped by Tyrion and inAFFC once she fully realises shes in the clutches of a total monster). Therefore her change in personality is not a loss of mental fierceness due to this being a "negative quality" that GRRM sought to remove, but a natural reaction to her circumstances. Hopefully that will change when she establishes better relationships with Mya Stone, Myranda Royce and Harold Hardyng and she kill Littlefinger

As for Cersei, I too regard her pride as her worst flaw, mainly because it is from her pride that her lack of empathy and poor planning abilities are derived - she thinks she's awesome so she doesn't give a shit about other people and also doesn't believe that her plans can go wrong. When it combines with her paranoia due to the loss of her son, father, and the prophecy, we get her attempt to set up Margaery and everything that flowed from it. Again it has nothing to do with sexism, Pride is also Tyrion's biggest flaw, mainly with regard to his intelligence, it leads him to run his mouth and gets him into all sorts of trouble. Its also one that I don't feel he's grown out of by the end of ADWD.

So in conclusion, GRRM''s portrayals of character and

Also a question about the daily mail - is it something that really conservative, class conscious people would read?

[1234567]

There is still so much room in Sansa's arc to manoeuvre for the author. So far she has always been in a position where she, whatever happened to her, has been treated as highborn, either as daughter of highest nobility, as most valuable hostage or as the wife of a nobleman - or as bastard daughter of a less high nobleman but still very advanced on the social scale.

Being beaten daily and treated like a pariah is not being treated like a highborn lady. Being forced into marriage by your enemies and nearly raped by your forced husband is not being treated like a Highborn Lady (see the outrage over Lady Hornwood). Being nearly raped by a singer is again not the experience of a highborn lady.

Sansa has had some, until now superficial, contacts downwards but finally there has always been somone who did the everyday chores for her.

As did Tyrion (until ADWD), Jaime, Edmure, Robb, Bran, Cersei, Cat, Lysa, Alys, Asha (she maybe on a ship, but people jump when she says jump), Arienne etc. The only major female character who doesn't is Arya and even there she has a lot of support and help from others, who treat her very differently as soon as they discover who she is. This obsession of yours with Sansa not doing her own washing seems highly bizzare and frankly I don't see how washing her own clothes or cooking a meal is meant to add to her character development.

Some character arcs have been shaped by a total, at least temporary, loss of their social position, the higher the fall the more spectacular. Beginning with the embarassment not to be able to light a fire or not knowing how to prepare a meal. And the experience of being pushed around as hostage - you are valuable goods that cannot be destroyed - is very much different from being pushed around as e. g. kitchen girl where you have no more worth than the carrot beside you.

So far again this is only Arya who has really had to deal with this and I don't think it has changed her character or led to development to her character: the killing people and becoming the Ghost of Harrenhal however very much shaped her character.

"And the experience of being pushed around as hostage - you are valuable goods that cannot be destroyed" - Really because I think Ned is an example of why that is just not true. Sansa was regularly beaten and forced into a marriage to one of her jailors with the intention that she be raped and have a child, after which point she could be dispossed of. That does not sound safe and secure. In fact one of Arya's ways of keeping safe was the pretence of being a kitchen girl.

I think her character development would get a serious push if she found herself in a situation at the bottom of the social scale, forced to deal with mere physical survival, bereft of that incredible plot armor GRRM has granted her against getting dangerously sexually attacked. This plot armor so far was relatively believable because her virginity is a valuable asset on the power market and Martin's determination to keep her maidenhead intact was backed up by her storyline. I admit I would like to see her (example only) forced to flee in servants' clothes, making her living in whatever kitchen, listening to kitchengirl chat, leaning about basic things like starvation and frost.

Why? What possible plot point would this serve but to turn her into another cliched literary trope? Princess turns social defender.

Learning to defend herself with cunning and violence if necessary.

You want her to become another cliched "badass"?

Forming alliances nobody would have expected.

See Sandor Clegane or Ser Dontos.

Well, learn. The fascination of Arya's arc certainly is not that she is a "tomboy", whatever that means, gender debates should definitely be behind that simplifying characterisation. The fascination of Arya's arc lies in the fact that Martin puts her in so many different scenarios and in every single one she takes something to learn out of it. So many experiences are still locked to Sansa, I very much hope the author will take her there.

Actually I find Arya's experience very repetative until she gets to Braavos: protected by Yoren, protected by Gendry, protected by FM man, protected by the BWB, protected by Sandor Clegane, protected by mystical coin that gets her to Braavos, taken in by the FM. When she is in the "care" of Gregor Clegane, in Harrenhal and at the Twins are the only times she is truly in grave danger. Saying that I do like Arya's character and I am not trying to say that somewho one is better than the other. They have different arcs and I think Arya is as much a deconstruction of the Tomboy "kickass" girl as Sansa is of the "damsel in distress".

[Lyanna Stark]

Welcome to the Sansa discussion threads peash!

Yes, Daily Mail is a British tabloid, with well, a slightly sensationalist social conservative bent (Lummel will again be proud of me for being so diplomatic!)

EDIT: To add to Rapsie's excellent post above, both Arya and Sansa get beaten after Ned's beheading. Arya by Weese and Sansa by the Kingsguard (Sansa even remarks that she has to wear a long sleeved dress to Joffrey's name day Tourney to cover the bruises on her body).

Further highlighting that Arya's and Sansa's stories mainly run in parallel.

[1234567]

Also a question about the daily mail - is it something that really conservative, class conscious people would read?

Yes and no. It's hard to explain. Lummel can you think of a better way to describe it?

[facetree]

Okay, before I go on-I would like to say that I don't like Sansa that much. This is because for me, she doesn't care about her family-she shows disdain for her family members, doesn't care about them, is willing to lie and potentially harm family members for someone who's not part of the family. It's the same reason why I don't like Tywin, Cersei, Walder Frey, and countless others.

I see her character arc as becoming more invested and finding out who are her real "family" and who are not. At the beginning, she's disdainful towards Jon and Arya, because she sees Jon as not a part of the family-"half brother"-and she doesn't understand Arya so she doesn't treat her sister like a member of the family, going as far as to ask if her sister's really a trueborn daughter. Compare this to Arya-she gets very upset when Sansa doesn't tell the truth, partly because she expects Sansa to stand up for her-a family member. At least, that's one of the reason why I think Arya's upset. Yes, Arya does have problems with Sansa as well-but on the whole I felt that while she thought Sansa's fascination with Romantic tales and stuff was "stupid", she didn't think that Sansa wasn't a part of the family. Certainly she doesn't go and ask her mother if she's adopted or anything, does she?

As the tale progresses, I see Sansa-who trusts everyone blindly at first, hurting those that should be her biggest allies (like her family), and whose innocent actions ultimately result in Ned getting beheaded-becomming more withdrawn, and beginning to discern who she should trust and who she shouldn't. This isn't without flaws-her decision to not to open up to Tyrion, for example, when he genuinely cared, or to trust Dontos so blindly when he's just a drunk and liable to betray her when he gets sobered up-but it's an understandable response from someone who lost everything and is confused about the world at large. We also see her longing to see her family again-she just wants to go back to Winterfell and have the life that she once had. Which I think is a considerable improvement.

I think we'll go on to see her caring about her family, the people that really mean something to her, and I think that'll be the decision which culminates in, or will be triggered by, the fate of Sweetrobin. Maybe she will stand up to LF and stop him from killing the little sickly boy. Or perhaps his death will cause her to feel guilty and start re-thinking about some of her decisions.

I think her arc is mainly about trust, whom you should trust, and when you should trust people. But that's my take on things.

[Lyanna Stark]

As the tale progresses, I see Sansa-who trusts everyone blindly at first, hurting those that should be her biggest allies (like her family), and whose innocent actions ultimately result in Ned getting beheaded-becomming more withdrawn, and beginning to discern who she should trust and who she shouldn't. This isn't without flaws-her decision to not to open up to Tyrion, for example, when he genuinely cared, or to trust Dontos so blindly when he's just a drunk-but it's an understandable response from someone who lost everything and is confused about the world at large.

No offence, but may I suggest you reread AGOT? Sansa is not behind Ned's beheading.

You are also showing a huge, huge HUGE misunderstanding of Sansa's storyline in your comments about Tyrion and Dontos. If you do not care for rereading her arc, I suggest taking a look at the "From Pawn to Player: Rereading Sansa" threads which contain all manners of useful information.

[PureGold]

Learning to defend herself with cunning and violence if necessary. Forming alliances nobody would have expected. Well, learn. The fascination of Arya's arc certainly is not that she is a "tomboy", whatever that means, gender debates should definitely be behind that simplifying characterisation. The fascination of Arya's arc lies in the fact that Martin puts her in so many different scenarios and in every single one she takes something to learn out of it.

I really like that Sansa's isn't violent. I very much enjoy Arya but in all honesty I've always found Sansa to be a vastly more interesting character because she can't rely on "Warrior Woman" skills.

Subtlety is what has kept Sansa alive so far. And watching her get better and better at spotting and playing a role in "Courtly Intrigues" has been one of the best ongoing themes in the whole saga for me.

She has faced/outlasted some very lethal enemies (Joffrey, Tywin), some of which she doesn't even realize (The Tyrells, sorry but their portrayal on screen leads me to think they are the type to totally frame Sansa for reigicide), and she is still working towards her own survival. I think though lady-like, inwardly Sansa is a very strong individual who's demonstrated, perseverance, determination and growth that comes from hard times.

Long story short I guess I find Sansa's "trials" more interesting than just about every other female characters in the story.

Okay, before I go on-I would like to say that I don't like Sansa that much. This is because for me, she doesn't care about her family-she shows disdain for her family members, doesn't care about them, is willing to lie and potentially harm family members for someone who's not part of the family. It's the same reason why I don't like Tywin, Cersei, Walder Frey, and countless others.

I never really got this. I lay her regard for Jon at the feet of Catelyn. She's loyal to her lady mother in that sense but I never got the impression she disdains her family. I think she was very self-centered and naive. In all honesty I think if your raising children in that kind of enviorment you should teach them about schemes and plots make sure their aware that not all battles are fought with Swords. The Stark children (and adults regrettably) had to learn this the hard way. But in CoK she prays for ALL of her family members, including Jon. Arya very much fit in with the boys so I get the impression Sansa might have been a little isolated in terms of sibling relationships. But she reflects on snow ball fights with Arya and Bran. Jon reflects how he's surprised about how he misses Sansa.

And for all the passivity Sansa is credited with. Even in GoT she tries to take her fate into her own hands by securing a place for herself in Kings Landing. Granted to disasterous results but it is something she attempts. And as time goes on we see her doing it more and more. Agreeing to meet with Dontos, confessing to the Tyrells and agreeing to the match with Willas (though it was manipulation on the part of QoT and Margaery) and so on.

[Lyanna Stark]

As for Cersei, I too regard her pride as her worst flaw, mainly because it is from her pride that her lack of empathy and poor planning abilities are derived - she thinks she's awesome so she doesn't give a shit about other people and also doesn't believe that her plans can go wrong. When it combines with her paranoia due to the loss of her son, father, and the prophecy, we get her attempt to set up Margaery and everything that flowed from it. Again it has nothing to do with sexism, Pride is also Tyrion's biggest flaw, mainly with regard to his intelligence, it leads him to run his mouth and gets him into all sorts of trouble. Its also one that I don't feel he's grown out of by the end of ADWD.

Good comparison between Cersei and Tyrion! A lot of people claim Cersei is stupid, but I don't think she is at all. Instead as you point out, and I think correctly, Cersei gets blinded by her pride/arrogance and her lack of empathy, which prevents her from understaing people's motivations.

Had she taken more time,care and effort to understand people's motivations, I think Cersei, with her ruthlessness could have rivalled Littlefinger himself. Her problem is, as LF says as well that she relies on her birth, her beauty and her riches, i.e. she takes them for granted, which is linked to pride and arrogance. Sansa has definitely learnt that arrogance does not help you in politics (and I think Tyrion is starting to realise this too, as he often wishes in ADWD that he could keep his cakehole shut more often).

[facetree]

No offence, but may I suggest you reread AGOT? Sansa is not behind Ned's beheading.

You are also showing a huge, huge HUGE misunderstanding of Sansa's storyline in your comments about Tyrion and Dontos. If you do not care for rereading her arc, I suggest taking a look at the "From Pawn to Player: Rereading Sansa" threads which contain all manners of useful information.

No, no, no-I didn't mean to imply that Sansa swung the sword at Ned's neck or anything like that. But she did go to the wrong person to talk about her troubles, and while I don't think she's responsible, she's just not really understanding whom to trust. I don't think that's her fault, necessarily, but I do think that she needs to learn whom to trust and whom to not.

And about Tyrion and Dontos-I probably didn't phrase myself correctly, sorry, English isn't my first language :P uh... What I meant was that she could have shown a little more leniency in trusting-or not trusting-Tyrion and Dontos. But, it's understandable under the circumstances.

But in CoK she prays for ALL of her family members, including Jon.

Exactly. That's what I mean by learning (although the hard way) whom to trust and love and whom to not. At the start of AGOT we don't really see this. But as the books progress, we see her yearning for her home, her family, stuff that she had in her past. And I think that that's part of her learning. And that's what started to make me like her again, because at first it seemed to me that she was too naive and just put her trust and affection in the wrong people.