From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa III

[Valkyrja]

Hi Daidalos, I think you brought up some good points about the danger of Alayne's situation regarding potential for Stockholm with Littlefinger. I find that whole situation really upsetting for her, and I don't know if I'll be able to stomach reading about Sansa in such a situation for many more chapters, honestly, unless she truly is able to find a way to cope that doesn't involve succumbing completely to LF.

About my previous post, let me just add that when I say I agree with the reviewer that SanSan is a 'love story', keep in mind that love stories do NOT have to a) 'work out', b ) end up as a marriage, or c) be otherwise consumated in any way, or d) have either participants ever even meet up again or even be alive..... and yet can still be considered a 'love story'.

Case in point: I was with the love of my life for five years, and even though it ended horribly, I'd still consider it to be a 'love story'. :P

If you hadn't noticed, many love stories that are told or re-told in literature are quite tragic (not that I want San/San to be tragic!!!, but I'm just pointing this out).

What do I WANT to happen? Sigh....sooooo many things. ;)

What do I THINK will happen? Honestly? I'm not even sure at this point if they will ever meet again in the story!

How do I imagine it could play out? With GRRM, anything or nothing could happen for all I know. GRRM likes to torment me, apparently, so if the last Jon Snow chapter in ADwD is anything to go by, if Sandor and Sansa did meet again....what would probably happen is that they'd make some awesome plan to take back Winterfell and then proceed to walk outside into the snow only to have all their supposed 'allies' stab them in the back. :P

Edited to say: In all seriousness, I'm going to have to see how the LF/Harry the Heir/Vale/Alayne Stone identity storyline plays out before I can really say for sure.

Edited again to say: I feel the need to clarify once more that no, I'm not saying that Sansa and Sandor have a fully-realized love story in the books. Rather, between them is a 'beautiful possibility of love' (to paraphrase someone else). I think it is that very *possibility* of a development of a mutual love story later on that appeals to many fans of this pairing.

[Caro99]

By the way, in what sense is 'SanSan' forbidden? It seems par for the course for these discussions.

EDITED TO ADD: I will say that in one sense, and in one sense only, would I regard "SanSan" with anything other than revulsion: it would be amusingly and deliciously ironic if Sansa ends up with someone as socially unacceptable as Sandor Clegane after all the scheming over the course of the series to marry her off to one nobleman or another.

the shock and irony of having Ned Stark's precious daughter (who was always seen day-dreaming of guys who looked like the knight of flowers and who- so far as people who don't really care to see beyond her pretty face, cried while she married a dwarf) choosing an ex-Lanniser dog, who is known to have dark moods, and who is scarred, is one of the reasons why i think San/San has a sense of forbidden to it. it's not cause sansa is already married, since san/san started before tyrion came along, but because as you said above, sandor isn't in the current nobleman trend Sansa has been linked with (a king, a very rich lord, an ex-hand of the king, the heir to the vale of arryn... and besides, if they announced their relationship to the world i don't think many would accept it without opposition, loyal stark followes included...

Valkrja, excellent posts! thanks for all the sansa-sandor allusion in the books post, and i agree with your last one too :) hopefully sansa will have a change of scenery in the next book, cause regardless of the cool political learning the game stuff, i can't bear to have her for another book with LF alone to be herself with.

Brash, yes, the white cloak in a way can be a parallel to sansa's take and maturity where sandor is concerned... i wonder if we will ever learn what happened to the cloak? did it burn along with tyrion's stuff when cersei had the tower of the hand burned, or did sansa's handmaidens discovered it right after the little bird flew away, or should we dare hope it's in the vale, now the current property of alayne stone?

[Kittykatknits]

In case anyone missed it, Midroag has even more posts up about SanSan that you should go read. He is spot on and has some great points. He even stated that if there is any couple that will run away together and leave it all behind, it's these two. He brings some analysis in to the discussion that I haven't really seen before that would probably be worthwhile for us to look at.

it finally hit me. I don't know why I didn't see it before, and you lovely posters are free to think I'm bonkers, but that statement there in all its bitterness and longing is love. There's absolutely no other reason for Sansa to be making that kind of statement unless she's experiencing what is commonly known as lovesickness :) She knows the kind of man Sandor is, she knows the evil he's done, she knows his secrets and his fears, and she still wants him. It's either love or madness, honestly, and some people will tell you that love is a kind of madness :) They managed to reach a deep connection while together in KL, and that connection has only grown whilst apart. Martin IMO is portraying what real love is, and how it develops over time and space. As Zarkovic said:

By the way, I also agree that san/san is a love story. It can be argued otherwise, but at the very least if they meet again, IMHO, I’m pretty sure something linking to romanticism (whether it is only the most chaste of kisses) is bound to happen… and it’s like brash said, the beauty and the beast element is there, but this version George came up with it’s so different to the original and so much more complex and deep that it can stand on its own and be distinguished as a great love story, not cause it resembles the famous fairy tale, but rather because of the brilliant way George described Sansa, Sandor, and how against all odds they found a strong connection between them.

And about the “he took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak”, I agree as well that Sansa to me also comes across as thinking this with bitterness. She isn’t saying “he dared kiss me even after he forced the song out of me!” she is in a way I think still wondering at times what would’ve happened had she gone with the hound on the night of the Blackwater. & we know Sandor also recalls this with bitterness, so they’re minds are already on the same path ;)

I agree with everything both of you said here but edited down for size. :)

You are right about this quote. If I look at her statement as a teenager in love for the first time, it's as if your first love has left you and all you have to remember them with is a favorite tshirt or the teddy bear he won for you at the county fair. Your bitter and heartbroken but you keep this little token of your time together nonetheless. That's what her cloak reminds me of. She misses him desperately. Sansa is very internal and even in her POV chapters, there is so much that she does not say, even to herself. She makes statements but it is if she does not allow herself to dwell on them. In Storm, Sansa says that she would lie awake at night wondering if she should have gone with Sandor that night. It's not unreasonable to guess that thoughts along these lines have continued, especially after her marriage and time in the Vale.

Caro99 - Something linking to romanticism is going to happen, I could not say it better. Her thoughts about him will play out in some shape or form. Whether that is them talking about, a chaste kiss, or more, I have no idea. But, it will play out somehow.

[Daidalos]

the shock and irony of having Ned Stark's precious daughter choosing an ex-Lanniser dog is one of the reasons why i think San/San has a sense of forbidden to it.

Oh, I didn't think Valkyrja meant "forbidden" in terms of Westerosi social norms. I assumed that she was alluding to the controversy in the fandom over the pairing.

[Caro99]

In case anyone missed it, Midroag has even more posts up about SanSan that you should go read. He is spot on and has some great points. He even stated that if there is any couple that will run away together and leave it all behind, it's these two. He brings some analysis in to the discussion that I haven't really seen before that would probably be worthwhile for us to look at.

I agree with everything both of you said here but edited down for size. :)

You are right about this quote. If I look at her statement as a teenager in love for the first time, it's as if your first love has left you and all you have to remember them with is a favorite tshirt or the teddy bear he won for you at the county fair. Your bitter and heartbroken but you keep this little token of your time together nonetheless. That's what her cloak reminds me of. She misses him desperately. Sansa is very internal and even in her POV chapters, there is so much that she does not say, even to herself. She makes statements but it is if she does not allow herself to dwell on them. In Storm, Sansa says that she would lie awake at night wondering if she should have gone with Sandor that night. It's not unreasonable to guess that thoughts along these lines have continued, especially after her marriage and time in the Vale.

Caro99 - Something linking to romanticism is going to happen, I could not say it better. Her thoughts about him will play out in some shape or form. Whether that is them talking about, a chaste kiss, or more, I have no idea. But, it will play out somehow.

thanks kittykatknits!! loved your post too!! as you said, sansa is very internal and does not share all of her thoughts with us, so wouldn't it be nice if when she was with sandor there was no need for words because they can understand each other so well... lol, sorry all this san/san talk is making me corny and sooo mad we can't have the sixth book soon (fingers crossed that the parperback cover ADWD will contain a sansa chapter..

and by the way, could you please please send me the link to all the wonderful things it seems Mr. Midroag has said about san/san? thanks so much!! :)

[Kittykatknits]

Great points as usual, brashcandy and Caro!

I don't know if it's ok for me to do this or not, and I hope you will forgive the momentary lapse into forbidden 'San/San' territory, but I was trawling through my Tumblr and noticed that someone had recently posted a compilation of quotes from the books in which Sansa thinks about the Sandor Clegane/the Hound when he is not around. I thought I would re-post this list here. (These quotes are followed by some other random quotes from both Sansa and the Hound that are also quite interesting, imo.)

Personally--and I know some may of course disagree-- I feel this list taken from the text itself supports what the author of the reivew was saying about Sansa and Sandor being a compelling 'love story', at least for a story such as ASoIaF. :)

From corseque, on Tumblr:

This was amazing. Thank you for sharing!

EDITED TO ADD: I will say that in one sense, and in one sense only, would I regard "SanSan" with anything other than revulsion: it would be amusingly and deliciously ironic if Sansa ends up with someone as socially unacceptable as Sandor Clegane after all the scheming over the course of the series to marry her off to one nobleman or another. Joffrey, Willas, Lancel (for a moment), Tyrion, Harry the Heir, maybe more in the future? Moreover, I think for the match to be at all possible, certain large changes must occur in Westeros, if Sansa is to keep her own identity and not live out her life pretending to be someone else.

I'll answer more of your questions tomorrow but I wanted to address this portion real quick. Part of Sansa's storyline so far has been just as you described - tossed from one suitor to another with her having very little say so in any of them. Oh - and one more suitor you forgot to add, her cousin Sweetrobin. They have been picked out for her and more, everyone has an assumption on what Sansa wants. Remember Tyrion's comment to her that he could be the Knight of Flowers in the dark?

For Sansa to pick someone who is so different from what others would believe to be her "ideal" is part of what makes this unique and different. She would be making a very deliberate decision to choose her mate in life, the good and the bad. It's a very strong way of her showing control over her own destiny. I'm not saying this will happen, really I have no idea.

Lyanna Stark on here has pointed out that love matches in this world have worked out in the past. They fail when the couple fails to take in to account the political reality around it but work out when the political reality is changed to match their need. @Lyanna - I hope I am doing your statement's justice here. That's the challenge for Sansa. Can she and does she want to? I don't know yet, I think that's part of the point of her story arc.

[Caro99]

Oh, I didn't think Valkyrja meant "forbidden" in terms of Westerosi social norms. I assumed that she was alluding to the controversy in the fandom over the pairing.

well, there are some factors that some people in the fandom don't like about san/san, like the age diffrence i guess, or how either sandor is too cool to fall in love with somone like sansa, or how sansa deserves better... :dunno:

[Kittykatknits]

thanks kittykatknits!! loved your post too!! as you said, sansa is very internal and does not share all of her thoughts with us, so wouldn't it be nice if when she was with sandor there was no need for words because they can understand each other so well... lol, sorry all this san/san talk is making me corny and sooo mad we can't have the sixth book soon (fingers crossed that the parperback cover ADWD will contain a sansa chapter..

and by the way, could you please please send me the link to all the wonderful things it seems Mr. Midroag has said about san/san? thanks so much!! :)

Yep. Hopefully I got them all.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__40#entry3273937

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__100#entry3275225

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__100#entry3275463

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__120#entry3275515

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__120#entry3275647

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__140#entry3275676

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68148-taking-the-adaptation-to-task-a-tv-critic%25e2%2580%2599s-perspective/page__st__140#entry3275752

Hopefully I got them all, it is way past my bedtime.

[Caro99]

Yep. Hopefully I got them all.

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3273937

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3275225

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3275463

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3275515

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3275647

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3275676

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3275752

Hopefully I got them all, it is way past my bedtime.

thanks so much!! much appreciated and off to read them. hope you have a nice rest :)

[Caro99]

sorry, double post

[Megara]

I will say that in one sense, and in one sense only, would I regard "SanSan" with anything other than revulsion: it would be amusingly and deliciously ironic if Sansa ends up with someone as socially unacceptable as Sandor Clegane after all the scheming over the course of the series to marry her off to one nobleman or another. Joffrey, Willas, Lancel (for a moment), Tyrion, Harry the Heir, maybe more in the future? Moreover, I think for the match to be at all possible, certain large changes must occur in Westeros, if Sansa is to keep her own identity and not live out her life pretending to be someone else.

This is exactly why I became a rabid SanSan fan: the precious irony of having this girl who, at the beginning of the series, dreamed about marrying a prince/king/handsome knight, and after a series of events and her own internal growth, finally discovers that her one true love is actually the deformed, harsh, no-knight/no-sir Sandor Clegane.

I think, if this ever come to pass in the upcoming novels (with a gentler Sandor, of course), it will show that Sansa REALLY has grown up A LOT, and her story won't be so different from real life, anyway: it's not uncommon for a teenage girl to think that she will have a handsome, cool boyfriend and they will love each other forever... but then things happen and you grow up, and then you realize that there are other things far more important than just a pretty face, so you start noticing this man who's not-so-handsome, but gentle, funny, smart, non-smoker, etc xD (insert whatever is important to you). Beauty, after all, is a trait that generally fades as time goes by, but a man's personality generally remains for a lifetime.

Sandor does have a LOT of flaws, but he's also a "tormented soul", so I hope he will be able to deal with his past and his trauma while staying in the QI. But he DOES HAVE virtues as well: he's honest, brave, strong, loyal to his most basic principles, he's even gentle sometimes, and he can connect to people's feelings, even if he doesn't show it (let's not forget that beautiful moment when he said "this thing about your mother..." to Arya). He's also a hard-working person, very smart and "honorable" in his own way... so I don't think he would be such a bad match for Sansa, considering that she's been surrounded by liars and schemers since she arrived at King's Landing.

Concerning the age difference, I posted this comment on Tumblr a while ago, but there's this Nickelodeon series, "Legend of Korra", in which one of the main characters and his wife have exactly the same age difference as Sansa and Sandor... and this is a kids TV show =) I also read somewhere that Brienne and Jaime also have the same age difference, but nobody seems to care about that when talking about that pairing...

[Lady of Shalott]

Concerning the age difference, I posted this comment on Tumblr a while ago, but there's this Nickelodeon series, "Legend of Korra", in which one of the main characters and his wife have exactly the same age difference as Sansa and Sandor... and this is a kids TV show =) I also read somewhere that Brienne and Jaime also have the same age difference, but nobody seems to care about that when talking about that pairing...

The age difference per se is obviously not the issue. A 15 years (or so) age gap between characters who met as adults shouldn't bother anyone. I'm 25 - there's a bigger age gap between myself and my boyfriend and no one has remarked on it. If both characters were 10 years older, no one would have a problem. But the issue is that right now Sansa is still a 14-year-old teenager, so understandably imagining her in a relationship with a grown man makes people uneasy.

I do ship Sansa/Sandor, but I believe Sansa would have to be (at the very least) 5 years older for the relationship to have the potential to be a healthy one. She would just need that kind of life experience.

[Valkyrja]

I do ship Sansa/Sandor, but I believe Sansa would have to be (at the very least) 5 years older for the relationship to have the potential to be a healthy one. She would just need that kind of life experience.

Its always been my suspicion that Sansa was one of the characters GRRM had in mind most when he was still planning the idea of the 5-year gap--- and for the very reason you state-- but that's just complete speculation/wishful thinking on my part. :P

[Kobayashi Maru]

Great points as usual, brashcandy and Caro!

I don't know if it's ok for me to do this or not, and I hope you will forgive the momentary lapse into forbidden 'San/San' territory, but I was trawling through my Tumblr and noticed that someone had recently posted a compilation of quotes from the books in which Sansa thinks about the Sandor Clegane/the Hound when he is not around. I thought I would re-post this list here. (These quotes are followed by some other random quotes from both Sansa and the Hound that are also quite interesting, imo.)

Personally--and I know some may of course disagree-- I feel this list taken from the text itself supports what the author of the reivew was saying about Sansa and Sandor being a compelling 'love story', at least for a story such as ASoIaF. :)

From corseque, on Tumblr:

That was great,thank you,after the Blackwater episode I needed a reminder why I tought this WAS a "love story" after all.I even saw some things I mised when I was readin the book.For example when she is defending Sandor for killing Mycah and runing away from the battle.

I remember first time I thought that this constitutes as a "love story" (why I keep doing "this" I have no idea ),it was when Joff odered him to escort her to her room and he told her how he got his scars and than she felt bad for him and stoped being affraid of him.That just seemed to me as quite obvious move in that direction ( oh what did I new ).That moment when he shared something he's never shared with anybody,opening himself like that for this little girl and exposing his most wulnerable part of himself to her was beaytiful,even though he later composed himself and said he'll kill her if she tells anybody ( I was like "yeah riiiight you'll kill her,please dude you wont lay a finger on her )And when the day after she cheered for him in the tournament I tought "yes I was right,she likes him".Also it seems that Arya knows about his brother and their house sigil and she's very bad at remembering this things.When she was in Winterfell she didn't boder to learn them from her maester and she wasn't at the tournament,so i guess someone who knew all the sigils and houses and was on the tournament told her about it later,wonder who?I read in one of the post that people didn't see this as a relationship but when you put all this toughts and interractions in one place it looks so obvious you wonder how can anyone miss it.It's like an elephant in the room.At one point I even wondered how noone in KL didn't see it.Come on people he shouted "enough" in front of everybody when she was beaten and when Joff odered Sandor to hit Sansa he just straight ignored him and people got their hands/toungs/other parts of their body choped of for less than that.

How it will develope?

Only GRRM knows.I must say HBO broke my little heart in their final scene ( NO song,no cloak,no nothing).Before that I was convinced they'll meet again and he'll die for her and she'll never give him what he wants-acceptance and he'll die thinking she is afraid of his face,even tough she's not,just of his anger.Or something like that. I know we don't have to accept HBO's version as a canon,not even the part that GRRM wrote but something struck me as interesting:In both the book and the TV show Lady is mentioned.In the book Sansa thinks of her wolf and in the series Sandor says something like "Lady's started to panic".Now I'm even more convinced he'll be her "dog" to compensate the wolf she lost.Also in Vale she keeps sleeping with that old blind dog.The BBB scene was toned down for the obvious reasons and we lost a lot in the "translation" but it looked to me as though one thing was suposed to be picked up from it and that is that Sandor won't hurt her and Sansa is now aware of it.I now believe that Unkiss is what will lead to that in the books,she'll stop being afraid of him.It will be important if she encounters him at some point and if she's again put in the position to choose will she go away with him.If by then she realises he won't hurt her she might make different choice this time around.Especialy if we consider that two other people who are looking for her and might find her are one Lannister and one woman she's never met in her life.Why would she go away with any of those two.If they show up with Sandor she might think twice before refusing.I'm hoping for romantic development but I'm not optimistic anymore.

As for LF I am scared to death she'll play along with his plan,become Alayne,kill her cousin and when someone comes to rescue her she'll suddenly become that annoying little girl from the kingsroad who turned her back on her family for the chance of becoming a queen.

Snador:Little bird I came to take you away.

Sansa:No you're ruining everything,I'm about to become lady of the Vale and marry Harry,LF says so.

Sandor:LF is lying,he's the one who told Joff to kill your father,he is baaad.

Sansa:Noooooo,LF is wonderful man,he gave me everything,I love him and believe him.

Me:Throwing the book into the fire "F..k this S..t"

[Lyanna Stark]

The age difference per se is obviously not the issue. A 15 years (or so) age gap between characters who met as adults shouldn't bother anyone. I'm 25 - there's a bigger age gap between myself and my boyfriend and no one has remarked on it. If both characters were 10 years older, no one would have a problem. But the issue is that right now Sansa is still a 14-year-old teenager, so understandably imagining her in a relationship with a grown man makes people uneasy.

I do ship Sansa/Sandor, but I believe Sansa would have to be (at the very least) 5 years older for the relationship to have the potential to be a healthy one. She would just need that kind of life experience.

The ages in ASOIAF are messed up, this is old news, we KNOW they are. Everyone who got half way past AGOT knows this due to Drogo/Dany. It was based on the assumption that during medieval ages there were no teenagers.

Dany/Drogo and Lyanna/Rhaegar are also more worrisome in that regard since they are (were in L/R's case) fully consummated relationships resulting in offspring (stillborn/induced misscarriage in Dany's case and death in childbirth in Lyanna's).

[facetree]

Dany/Drogo and Lyanna/Rhaegar are also more worrisome in that regard since they are (were in L/R's case) fully consummated relationships resulting in offspring (stillborn/induced misscarriage in Dany's case and death in childbirth in Lyanna's).

Uh, not sure if it's relevant, but aren't very young female bodies just starting puberty physically have more problems during birth and stuff, as their hipbones are not fully matured yet? I read somewhere-not sure where-that people do wait a bit after puberty to get married, but apparently in Dany's case that wasn't true...

[Kobayashi Maru]

:agree:

I thought we already accepted it and moved on. Age of the characters is messed up,we know it,it's just a book not a real world and doesen't reflect our beliefs and preferences from the real world ( I hope ) and that's it. Let just discust the story. :dunno: I imagine the characters to look like they do in the tv series anyway.

[facetree]

:agree:

I thought we already accepted it and moved on. Age of the characters is messed up,we know it,it's just a book not a real world and doesen't reflect our beliefs and preferences from the real world ( I hope ) and that's it. Let just discust the story. :dunno: I imagine the characters to look like they do in the tv series anyway.

Good. I was actually quite worried when I was reading the series as I have a horrible fear of birth. And sorry for the derailing!

[Lady of Shalott]

The ages in ASOIAF are messed up, this is old news, we KNOW they are. Everyone who got half way past AGOT knows this due to Drogo/Dany. It was based on the assumption that during medieval ages there were no teenagers.

Dany/Drogo and Lyanna/Rhaegar are also more worrisome in that regard since they are (were in L/R's case) fully consummated relationships resulting in offspring (stillborn/induced misscarriage in Dany's case and death in childbirth in Lyanna's).

From a reader's perspective, I completely agree, but I was more trying to understand why they would whitewash the relationship so much in the series (and particularly in the Blackwater episode.) Dany is portrayed by an actress in her early to mid 20s, whereas Sophie was 15 at the time of filming ACoK. I believe that just hinting at a romantic attraction between the two could have caused at least some casual viewers to go all "OMG pedophile!" on the Hound, which clearly wouldn't have helped.

[Lyanna Stark]

Good. I was actually quite worried when I was reading the series as I have a horrible fear of birth. And sorry for the derailing!

Don't worry, so did I but once I was on my 9th month I really couldn't care less how it came out as long as it did. You are of course right that very young female bodies are not really designed for going through pregnancy and birth, which is another reason I think the ages are wonky as hell.

In case anyone missed it, Midroag has even more posts up about SanSan that you should go read. He is spot on and has some great points. He even stated that if there is any couple that will run away together and leave it all behind, it's these two.

Gods forbid, don't let this happen. :( We all know what happens to elopers and starcrossed lovers, that way lies tragedy, death and destruction. Within Westeros, starcrossed lovers have less chance than one a million to make it.

Looking instead at what Sansa will want to emulate, which would be their parents' relationship, most likely, looking at Cat especially she thinks of Ned both with profound longing, but also in a capacity of advisor as in WWND or WWNT (What Would Ned Do and What Would Ned Think). Not because she is stupid or silly, but because she valued Ned, his wisdom and his personality. It's also interesting to note that Cat was well aware of Ned's "official" persona, or his "game face" you might say. To all accounts and purposes Ned was a cold man. Honourable, stern, righteous and above all cold as winter itself. But from the window Cat gives us we also see that Ned the private person was very different, compassionate, tender and capable of very fierce love for his wife and children.