Am I the only one who thinks Aegon stole Danys thunder?

[Dolorous Ali]

I don't think hr main plot point to get the iron throne. I think she is destined to fight the Others. She isn't a good ruler IMO, but she is emotional and would sacrifice herself to save people from the Others. No, I'm not saying she's AA. She's got dragons, and they're good weapons against them. But if she takes the iron throne, think of all the problems that will cause. The Dothraki savages, the unsullied (who will always be slave no matter how many times they're freed) and a bunch of other foreigners. All this, with a queen who will soon be madder than Aerys. Winter has come, there is not enough food. Stannis saved the realm when he helped the NW. But Dany would kill him because he was "usurper's dog". I prefer Aegon!

[total1402]

Dany isn't mad. What scenes have ever given you that impression? If you're not willing to take the opinion of Barristan Selmy on this point then theres not a lot else I can say. Dany is not a bad ruler, she just tried to do the right thing in Mereen and wouldn't accept that it was impossible. I don't see people bitching about how Robb Stark was a terrible King for going with his love and Jon Snow a bad commander for letting the wildlings past the wall or Nedd Stark for trying to do the honest thing. Thats not incompetence and it doesn't mean shes a bad ruler. G RR Martin set ADWD up specifically to be a bad situation for Dany in ruling Mereen, if the author wants to put characters into a bad situation then he can and its not meant to flag how the character is unfit for rule. Shes only a 16 year old girl and what else could she have done other than kill every Mereenese and leave her slaves to die?

[Rinso]

A big mistake for me IMO. Killing stuff in Essos, no matter how epic, isn't going to compensate for dragging on this pointless filler just to make a little joke about how Dany arrived too late. Thats just the author being an ass if that happens, especially if her not getting there seems incredibly contrived since Dany seems to have had a much harder time of it in just about everything whilst YG just gets a few boats and sails. What does this delay even accomplish? The expectation of her return gets really damaged by Aegon doing the job himself and she can't even get her soldiers to Westeros as we've been repeatedly told. Even Vic lost half of his fleet without being laden with starving soldiers. But hes able to do it easily?

Well, sucks to be Dany. Luckily, ASoIaF isn't solely about Dany so... I can actually buy how easy it was for "Aegon" and co. to reach Westeros. Unlike Dany, they know where their priorities lie. Determination will get you far, anytime. Also, unlike Dany, they don't really have thousands of useless mouths to feed on the way. The Golden Company is a large force, but they are disciplined and seasoned; plus, it's not like they lack money. As to Victarion losing half his fleet, well, he traveled much further and longer than "Aegon" and the Golden Company lost some ships as well.

I never felt that Dany's triumphant return to reconquer the throne was an important part of the overall metastory, to be honest. It's integral for her personal story, but not to the big picture. Ever since we figured she's the prophesized savior, the important thing about Dany is to return on time to bring the dragons against the zombie appocalypse and the Others. Getting the Iron Throne is simply an optional bonus.

[total1402]

Well, sucks to be Dany. Luckily, ASoIaF isn't solely about Dany so... I can actually buy how easy it was for "Aegon" and co. to reach Westeros. Unlike Dany, they know where their priorities lie. Determination will get you far, anytime. Also, unlike Dany, they don't really have thousands of useless mouths to feed on the way. The Golden Company is a large force, but they are disciplined and seasoned; plus, it's not like they lack money. As to Victarion losing half his fleet, well, he traveled much further and longer than "Aegon" and the Golden Company lost some ships as well.

I never felt that Dany's triumphant return to reconquer the throne was an important part of the overall metastory, to be honest. It's integral for her personal story, but not to the big picture. Ever since we figured she's the prophesized savior, the important thing about Dany is to return on time to bring the dragons against the zombie appocalypse and the Others. Getting the Iron Throne is simply an optional bonus.

Aegon only wins because Martin wants him too and doesn't want Dany in the tale until later. It is plot convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. As others have mentioned Aegon is all talk and no balls. Just a silver haired snot stain who has stolen Danys thunder.

The Game of Thrones is an important part of the story. Dany being a Targ makes that important part of the metastory. Yes, up until Feast of Crows her tale in the East is largely her own. But from FoC onwards a huge number of plots are opened up in which Dany and her return become a central part of the metastory. We see that Vic and Eurons plans center around Dany. Tyrions plans center around Dany. The whole Martell storyline and the bit with Quentyn also involves Dany and Martell secret deals with the Targs. Even Young Griff, if he is a pretender, a key element of his story is defined by what Dany does. You then have background elements like the fact that her actions in Mereen have gotten a whole continent at war with her and pretty much every fire god worshipper convinced that she is Azzor Hai. The most recent books took Danys tale from being a personal story and began to bring it into the wider story of Westeros. But I felt that Aegon made all this build-up count for little when her arrival was hijacked by another random Targ. GRR Martin definetly hyped Dany's return throughout these books and especially in the last two. To say thats Danys triumphant return with her three dragons isn't a big part of a song of ice and fire is just incorrect.

Also, this is a thread about Aegon n Dany's plot I'am not trying to argue that other plots like Jamie and Sansa are less enjoyable in their own way or that I don't think they're important.

[sumpthy]

The expectation of her return gets really damaged by Aegon doing the job himself and she can't even get her soldiers to Westeros as we've been repeatedly told. Even Vic lost half of his fleet without being laden with starving soldiers. But hes able to do it easily?

Aegon sailed from Volantis to Griffin's Roost which is a lot shorter than the Reach to Meeren.

[total1402]

Aegon sailed from Volantis to Griffin's Roost which is a lot shorter than the Reach to Meeren.

Vic lost most of his ships before he even reached slavers bay and I think before he even knew the Volantis fleet was on the move. So he made a similar trip but lost far more ships despite being Ironmen. Skimming the coast is much easier than sailing in open water. Most of the loses actually occur in precisely the sae chunk of water between Volantis and Westeros. You know this because Vic is taking all of these losses before he picks up Moqorro who had only just left Volantis.

[sumpthy]

Vic lost most of his ships before he even reached slavers bay and I think before he even knew the Volantis fleet was on the move. So he made a similar trip but lost far more ships despite being Ironmen.

Fair point, but I think you're underestimating Victarion's journey, looking at the map it's about three times the length of Aegon's and maybe the seas south of Dorne were particularly bad, is there anything in Samwell's chapter that would suggest it is? Saying that Aegon had to sail into place literally called Shipbreaker Bay.

[Rinso]

Aegon only wins because Martin wants him too and doesn't want Dany in the tale until later. It is plot convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. As others have mentioned Aegon is all talk and no balls. Just a silver haired snot stain who has stolen Danys thunder.

Everything happens because Martin wants it too happen. It's not any more plot convenient than the way Dany sacked Astapor or even the way Jon was elected for Lord Commander. And "a silver haired snot stain", while certainly applicable to "Aegon", fits kind of nicely about Dany too, IMO.

The Game of Thrones is an important part of the story. Dany being a Targ makes that important part of the metastory. Yes, up until Feast of Crows her tale in the East is largely her own. But from FoC onwards a huge number of plots are opened up in which Dany and her return become a central part of the metastory. We see that Vic and Eurons plans center around Dany. Tyrions plans center around Dany. The whole Martell storyline and the bit with Quentyn also involves Dany and Martell secret deals with the Targs. Even Young Griff, if he is a pretender, a key element of his story is defined by what Dany does. You then have background elements like the fact that her actions in Mereen have gotten a whole continent at war with her and pretty much every fire god worshipper convinced that she is Azzor Hai. The most recent books took Danys tale from being a personal story and began to bring it into the wider story of Westeros. But I felt that Aegon made all this build-up count for little when her arrival was hijacked by another random Targ. GRR Martin definetly hyped Dany's return throughout these books and especially in the last two. To say thats Danys triumphant return with her three dragons isn't a big part of a song of ice and fire is just incorrect.

Also, this is a thread about Aegon n Dany's plot I'am not trying to argue that other plots like Jamie and Sansa are less enjoyable in their own way or that I don't think they're important.

The return of Dany is important. The return of Dany in order to take the Iron Throne isn't. She's Azor Ahai, her purpose in the grand scheme is far more integral than becoming yet another combatant in the civil war. Dany's desire is to get the throne, yes; her plot, though, clearly leads somewhere else.

[total1402]

Everything happens because Martin wants it too happen. It's not any more plot convenient than the way Dany sacked Astapor or even the way Jon was elected for Lord Commander. And "a silver haired snot stain", while certainly applicable to "Aegon", fits kind of nicely about Dany too, IMO.

The return of Dany is important. The return of Dany in order to take the Iron Throne isn't. She's Azor Ahai, her purpose in the grand scheme is far more integral than becoming yet another combatant in the civil war. Dany's desire is to get the throne, yes; her plot, though, clearly leads somewhere else.

Yeah but I feel sorry for Dany and root for her. So she is not a snot stain and is just a good person in a bad situation. No when I say plot convenient I don't mean simply things moving on or taking a sudden turn. I also mean that A LOT of people hated Dany because of the situation Martin put her in during ADWD and really deride her because of it; not a lot of people distinguish the two. Plus, it seems like a plot hole that one character inexplicably has an easy time of it whilst Dany has been unable to do jack for six books. Yes you can do that as a writer, but it doesn't make much sense.

But most of the books are dedicated to the salient issue of who will sit the iron throne. Even Jon Snows plot has been more about wildlings and Stannis than truly about the others who have just floated in the background. To exect Dany and all the characters around her to just put their desires on hold to fight a fantasy epic and then leave everything to be decided around a coffee table wouldn't make sense. Martin pushed that people can't escape from who they are and are hardly going to do so to fight the others.

[Rinso]

Marin also pushes that what the characters want doesn't mean shit. Just because Dany wants to take the Iron Throne, doesn't mean it's going to happen.

"Aegon" had an easy time getting to Westeros because he's backed up by very powerful and influential people. Dany is totally on her own. Also, he doesn't go wandering around the world trying to fix it. And besides, getting to Westeros was the easy part; we'll see how he'll fare from now on - and if there is one constant in this story it's that everyone fucks up sooner or later. "Aegon"'s star is on the rise right now, but that's how Stannis felt in ACOK or Cersei in AFFC.

A part of the books is dedicated to the fight for the throne, yes. We were also told, early on, that when the Others come it won't matter who sits the Iron Throne. And the Others will come. And this is when Dany will be needed.

[Fire and Blood!]

Ever since Viserys died I tried to root for Daenerys yet despite my most sincere attempts I was unable to do so.Aegon stole nothing, she had opportunities to go back to Westeros, it was her choice not to do so.Aegon had everything handed to him on a silver plate and Dany was always unlucki, really she had the 1:1000000 chance to hatch 3 dragons(matter of fact take her dragons away and she would be Viserys 2.0).So far Aegon is a much more sympathetic charcter to me.

That being said I don't hate her and I hope it doesn't come to a war between her and Aegon, if it does I hope they will realise the foolishness of it and make peace.Aegon needs to survive to continue the Targaryen line since Daenerys can no longer fulfill that purpose.

[DurararaFTW]

That's exactly what Aegon is for, stealing Daenerys' thunder. GRRM is most likely very concious of this.

[total1402]

I wouldn't say on her own...

I mean

* The Iron Suitor (ffing awesome BTW) and one of the best fleets in Westeros and arguably its best admiral

*Tyrion-one of the best statesmen in the series

*The Unsullied, arguably the best infantry

*Potentially the best horse archers if she can get the Dothraki to aid her

*Several sell sword companies

*Barristan Selmy, the best fighter even though hes aging

*Ser Jorah

*Three dragons

Thats a pretty fearsome assemblage of force she could end up with. Plus, if ADWD was her mess up book then it follows that shes going to have a relatively good time of it in the next book. Which if she shatters their armies and goes 1204 Constantinople on the Eastern cities after KOing their armies and fleets shes gonna be pretty good. Also, I really think Braavos, ex slaves, would back Dany in her fight against the slave states.

[total1402]

Ever since Viserys died I tried to root for Daenerys yet despite my most sincere attempts I was unable to do so.Aegon stole nothing, she had opportunities to go back to Westeros, it was her choice not to do so.Aegon had everything handed to him on a silver plate and Dany was always unlucki, really she had the 1:1000000 chance to hatch 3 dragons(matter of fact take her dragons away and she would be Viserys 2.0).So far Aegon is a much more sympathetic charcter to me.

Dany wanted to do the right thing in slavers bay and couldn't go without a fleet even once she had the Unsullied. If she had left she would have condemned Mereen to suffer the same fate terrible fate Astapor did. Thats not an unsympathetic thing to want. She would have certainly married Quentyn and left if that wasn't preventing her leaving; even if he wasn't her type. Before a FoC she needed an army and a fleet. For plot reasons, none of her backers in Westeros like the Golden Company or the Martells attempt or are able to contact her. Diverting away from Pentos in Storm of Swords made sense because she didn't want to go back to being a beggar like she had in Qarth and didn't know that Illyrio could have gotten her all this support that he has kept secret.

If she was anything like Viserys she would have murdered everyone in Mereen, Astapor, and Yunkai. Left the slaves to be slaughtered by Ghis and burnt Barristan Selmy alive rather than forgive him. Dany is not her brother, moments where she doubts herself and wonders if she is a monster like her dragons are there to show that she has a conscience and unfortunately is put in a morally impossible situation.

[tze]

As Tyrion told Aegon,

But do not wait too long, my prince. The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place.”

That advice is just as applicable to Dany as to Aegon. She waited too long, and now she's probably going to reach Westeros after Cersei falls and someone more competent takes Cersei's place. Dany chose to stay in the East, not because she felt conditions in Westeros weren't ripe for an invasion (since she knew very little about what was going on in Westeros at that time), but because she had goals in Essos that she wanted to deal with first. But the whole point of conquests appears to be that the result is never preordained----some higher power is not rooting for a particular conqueror, and is not ensuring that events always fall out in such a way as to ensure that particular person's eventual success whenever that person decides to go ahead and attack. Choices have consequences. To conquer and hold a place, a thousand things have to go right for the eventual winner and a thousand things also have to go wrong for the eventual loser. (Ser Eustace in TSS especially seems to highlight this idea.) Had Aegon the Conqueror invaded Westeros five years later, or five years earlier, his invasion might have failed, because the conditions that led to his success might easily have changed. Even his invasion was never guaranteed to succeed. Dany's success in Westeros was never a fait accompli, and by focusing on the east, she missed valuable opportunities in the west.

I think the whole point of Aegon "stealing Dany's thunder" is to highlight the fact that 1) Westeros was not waiting around in a time vaccum for whenever Dany finally decided to get around to conquering it and 2) Success depends as much on luck as on skill. Dany thought that staying in Meereen was only postponing her "inevitable" conquest of Westeros. But as that conquest was never really inevitable, her actions in the east might very well have doomed her amibitions in the west.

[total1402]

As Tyrion told Aegon,

That advice is just as applicable to Dany as to Aegon. She waited too long, and now she's probably going to reach Westeros after Cersei falls and someone more competent takes Cersei's place. Dany chose to stay in the East, not because she felt conditions in Westeros weren't ripe for an invasion (since she knew very little about what was going on in Westeros at that time), but because she had goals in Essos that she wanted to deal with first. But the whole point of conquests appears to be that the result is never preordained----some higher power is not rooting for a particular conqueror, and is not ensuring that events always fall out in such a way as to ensure that particular person's eventual success whenever that person decides to go ahead and attack. Choices have consequences. To conquer and hold a place, a thousand things have to go right for the eventual winner and a thousand things also have to go wrong for the eventual loser. (Ser Eustace in TSS especially seems to highlight this idea.) Had Aegon the Conqueror invaded Westeros five years later, or five years earlier, his invasion might have failed, because the conditions that led to his success might easily have changed. Even his invasion was never guaranteed to succeed. Dany's success in Westeros was never a fait accompli, and by focusing on the east, she missed valuable opportunities in the west.

I think the whole point of Aegon "stealing Dany's thunder" is to highlight the fact that 1) Westeros was not waiting around in a time vaccum for whenever Dany finally decided to get around to conquering it and 2) Success depends as much on luck as on skill. Dany thought that staying in Meereen was only postponing her "inevitable" conquest of Westeros. But as that conquest was never really inevitable, her actions in the east might very well have doomed her amibitions in the west.

Again, see my post above as to why Dany is ignorant of whats happening in Westeros and about her motives for staying in Mereen. Its if anything the fault of Illyrio, Prince Martell and Varys for not informing her of events. A leader is only as good as her info. I think you are underestimating what three full grown dragons are capable of and we ourselves were led to believe that invading Westeros was an immense undertaking. Not a little raid with a few thousand mercs.

My impression was that Tyrion was giving him bad advice to proove that he should trust nobody. Later on he thinks to himself 'he took the bait' upon hearing that the company sailed west. He remarks that you needed to keep your dragons close and not get impetuous since things can change rapidly. If GRR Martin wanted to make an element of the story fall flat on prupose then, I'am sorry but you shouldn't lead your audience on like that for five books just to disappoint them.

[Rinso]

I wouldn't say on her own...

I mean

* The Iron Suitor (ffing awesome BTW) and one of the best fleets in Westeros and arguably its best admiral

*Tyrion-one of the best statesmen in the series

*The Unsullied, arguably the best infantry

*Potentially the best horse archers if she can get the Dothraki to aid her

*Several sell sword companies

*Barristan Selmy, the best fighter even though hes aging

*Ser Jorah

*Three dragons

Thats a pretty fearsome assemblage of force she could end up with. Plus, if ADWD was her mess up book then it follows that shes going to have a relatively good time of it in the next book. Which if she shatters their armies and goes 1204 Constantinople on the Eastern cities after KOing their armies and fleets shes gonna be pretty good. Also, I really think Braavos, ex slaves, would back Dany in her fight against the slave states.

Half of those people are untrustworthy and might prove to be more of a danger than a help. She has very few people who actually care about her and sincerely want to help her. And all her path so far leads her to the need to fight to get somewhere. With "Aegon", everything is handed to him on a silver platter.

[total1402]

Half of those people are untrustworthy and might prove to be more of a danger than a help. She has very few people who actually care about her and sincerely want to help her. And all her path so far leads her to the need to fight to get somewhere. With "Aegon", everything is handed to him on a silver platter.

I actually just thought. Cersei may be a spent old hag but she is still unmarried and heir to the Rock. Could she try to marry Baelish and get the Veil on her side? Ha, actually, what if she married Euron Greyjoy to get his fleet?! :) Good Vic would love that if he comes back with the most beautiful woman in the world and his bro Euron has Cersei. Like you said, hes a bit of a Mary Sue character and is having an easy time of it.

She still has the Bear if she'll take him back. Plus, Robb had the Freys n Boltons n Greyjoy with Theon with him. Cersei had Tyrell, Frey and Bolton on her side. Everyone has had to deal with treacherous people, but I'd say she probably could bend them all to her will. Vics the main one to doubt, but if he really is a fire-worshipper then hes hardly going to betray his messiah is he?

[tze]

Again, see my post above as to why Dany is ignorant of whats happening in Westeros and about her motives for staying in Mereen.

Except it doesn't matter WHY Dany knows nothing about what's going on in Westeros, and it doesn't matter WHY she stays in Meereen. All that matters, for the purposes of determining whether or not she's likely to succeed in conquering Westeros, is that she didn't know what the conditions were like in Westeros and that she chose to stay in Meereen rather than heading on to Westeros. The fact that slaves were suffering in Meereen has no effect whatsoever on the issue of whether throwing over Cersei or throwing over Aegon/Connington is more beneficial to Dany's conquest of Westeros. She can't just go to the smallfolk and lords of Westeros, calmly explain to them how unfair the whole situation is, and expect them all to nod in agreement and just hand over the crown. Dany's victory is not, and never was, guaranteed, and the universe cannot be expected to conspire to give Dany everything she wants. She made a choice, and choices have consequences.

[Fire and Blood!]

Dany wanted to do the right thing in slavers bay and couldn't go without a fleet even once she had the Unsullied. If she had left she would have condemned Mereen to suffer the same fate terrible fate Astapor did. Thats not an unsympathetic thing to want. She would have certainly married Quentyn and left if that wasn't preventing her leaving; even if he wasn't her type. Before a FoC she needed an army and a fleet. For plot reasons, none of her backers in Westeros like the Golden Company or the Martells attempt or are able to contact her. Diverting away from Pentos in Storm of Swords made sense because she didn't want to go back to being a beggar like she had in Qarth and didn't know that Illyrio could have gotten her all this support that he has kept secret.

If she was anything like Viserys she would have murdered everyone in Mereen, Astapor, and Yunkai. Left the slaves to be slaughtered by Ghis and burnt Barristan Selmy alive rather than forgive him. Dany is not her brother, moments where she doubts herself and wonders if she is a monster like her dragons are there to show that she has a conscience and unfortunately is put in a morally impossible situation.

She had her motives(commedable motives yes), she made her choices, she pays the price.If she wants to be queen she must make sacrifices in particular she should have sacrificed Mereen and the slaves.Yes it would have seemed cruel but it could have gotten her the Iron Throne.

On a side note Viserys wasn't that bad and would have been a better person if people actually respected him, 3 dragon would have helped in that matter.