Am I the only one who thinks Aegon stole Danys thunder?

[total1402]

So long as you're aware that many, many people dislike Dany or are apathetic to her. Some people think Dany is a plot device for wider events. It's perception, and you should understand that how YOU perceive characters and their wider roles may not be shared by everyone, or even shared by GRRM.

You're free to enjoy or not enjoy the story and its outcome all you want. Your mistake is, from how I take it, judging the artistic quality of the writing itself based on how closely it conforms to your own personal wishes for how it should turn out. Or more succinctly, the idea that the story will somehow suck if Dany doesn't win is ridiculous.

I have no clue what you're even talking about, sorry. If I wanted to talk about Grimdark or whatever it is, I'd find a board for it.

These would be the people who joke about her being raped right? Forgive me if I don't share their view and value the opinion of those in my immediate circle of friends higher.

I'am not a writer so I'am in no position to judge a work on artistic integrity. Thats like a random questioning the academic integrity of a work of history by an academic. I'am a consumer who judges a work based on how much I enjoy it. Dany losing would be less enjoyable for me than if she won, therefore I count that as a negative. Saying I do not enjoy a work is not the same as saying it is badly written. Though it is actually matters for more for my opinion of the work than dry technical analysis or appraisal of the works next to other works of fantasy literature. I don't care for that. What matters for me is that having a satisfying conclusion to the sotry arc of Dany is enjoyable and entertaining.

its a nickname for dark fantasy and sci-fi. I find a lot of people assume that the darker the story is the closer it comes to being a great work because its more edgy and closer to life.

[total1402]

Again, if you're that butthurt over where the story's going, stop reading.

I'am "buthurt" because you and several other posters seem to think its funny that Dany dies and that the story will be better for it if Dany randomly loses for the sake of shock factor.

I'am not criticising where the stories going at all. I'am criticising where others think it should go.

[Fire and Blood!]

I'am not criticising where the stories going at all. I'am criticising where others think it should go.

Shall I then start criticising you because you think the story should go differently than I do?

[total1402]

Shall I then start criticising you because you think the story should go differently than I do?

Thats what hes doing anyway so I don't see your point. One more Dany hater means little to me. If I'am wrong or convinced otherwise I'd tell you without any concern. But when others suggest what would be terrible let downs for me and I find the most common reason to be "I hate that silver whore and want her to fail" then I take exception to that.

[Fire and Blood!]

Thats what you are doing anyway...

Am I?Sorry, wasn't my intention I just wanted to show you that there are people who think diffrently than you about what would be the best ending(for example if Aegon is to fail and die I will have little reason to finish the story), if anything I just think you should complain less if the story doesn't end the way you want.

[total1402]

Am I?Sorry, wasn't my intention I just wanted to show you that there are people who think diffrently than you about what would be the best ending(for example if Aegon is to fail and die I will have little reason to finish the story), if anything I just think you should complain less if the story doesn't end the way you want.

See edited message. I thought you were somebody else.

So what? You like Aegon. shrugs. I liked Renly. Not like the Earl of Doncaster but Iliked him all the same. ;)

[Fire and Blood!]

See edited message. I thought you were somebody else.

So what? You like Aegon. shrugs. I liked Renly. Not like the Earl of Doncaster but Iliked him all the same. ;)

Oh no problem then.

Well yes I like Aegon, I liked Renly too(he was the only Baratheon I didn't hate so yeah close enough).I dont hate Dany though and I don't want ether of them to die there are too few Targaryens as it is.

[Fantôme]

So long as you're aware that many, many people dislike Dany or are apathetic to her. Some people think Dany is a plot device for wider events.

These would be the people who joke about her being raped right? Forgive me if I don't share their view and value the opinion of those in my immediate circle of friends higher.

...Seriously...

[total1402]

...Seriously...

People have said that. At one point that poster did say he hoped Dany fell flat on her face and died.

[Mummer's Fart]

Has she not had a hard enough time of it in ADWD? :frown5:

But thats not my main issue, its just that I was really looking forward to the look on every lords face when she arrived with three dragons and an army. Thats not going to have the same impact if theres already another Targarian who has trod this road and won. Its really anti-climatic for me.

Yes but another Targaryen has done this; Aegon I. I would find it anti-climatic if she follows in the footsteps of a legendary ancestor. She should make her own legend and I think GRRM knows that.

[total1402]

Yes but another Targaryen has done this; Aegon I. I would find it anti-climatic if she follows in the footsteps of a legendary ancestor. She should make her own legend and I think GRRM knows that.

In what sense? Her story is already very different in how she got the dragons and an army. Plus shes going to be fighting the Others at some point with the Dragons.

[Fantôme]

People have said that. At one point that poster did say he hoped Dany fell flat on her face and died.

First: she didn't say she wanted her dead, she said she hoped she "falls flat on her face" which, correct me if I'm wrong Apple Martini, would mean she wants her to fail epicly.

Secondly: That's not the point. The point is that this kind of argument is preventing any kind of discussion by basically saying:"If you don't like Dany or don't sympathize with her, you want her to be raped", which is ridiculous.

Just look at Apple's Martini's comment and your reply that I quoted, that's pretty clear.

About the OP, I understand your frustration but the author is not required to follow all of our wishful thinking and expectations.And I for example absolutely don't see what's so great about Dany (expectedly) landing in Westeros , shocking everybody and burning everything to ashes. I like the Blackfyre and potential Dance of Dragons aspect better than this alternative.

[Mummer's Fart]

In what sense? Her story is already very different in how she got the dragons and an army. Plus shes going to be fighting the Others at some point with the Dragons.

In the sense that Dany need not become Aegon the Conqueror v2.0 to retake the throne or tell the story. Of course Dany's story has been different from Aegon I's heretofore, but we don't know much about Aegon's pre-conquest life either.

[total1402]

Thats just a colourful exaggeration on my part. Generally if people want main characters in a story dead or to fail it means they're directing an insult. If you find them boring, or annoying then just forget about them and don't bother reading them. I may skim read Brans chapters but I don't hate the character and want him to suffer. Also, while I feel nothing for Kon I still invest in the importance of him succeeding. Its not neccesary to go to great lengths to describe why this character should crash and burn. I thus feel justified cutting them from the same cloth.

Given that this was the prescribed view of what was going to happen up until ADWD when they introduced this character then I don't know why you see at as bad. My view about Danys story has always been a good pay off for a long wait in which the hero suffers countless troubles and problems. My OP argued that Dany's thunder had been stolen because, much like how Arya doesn't get any revenge over those who wronged her as other people kill them first, Aegon beat Dany to the punch and trivialises her own story. Another Targ goes to Westeros, she follows. But others seem to think that this is the set-up to Dany being defeated. That all this build-up is just to pull the rug from my feet and throw some tragic death just to make the asinine point that we can't always get what we want and the right people don't always win. In my view that is just a malicious opinion held be people who want the character dead and use her as a pun for jokes. Its not just that people expect this to happen. They actively seem to want a main character dead because in their eyes she was weak, is annoying and indecisive when really Martin made it impossible for her to actually leave. So I'am not really having a discussion if these people want a character to fail because they just don't like them for some reason and honestly they state their dislike quite vehemently. When I say it would be odd for Martin to kill a character off and have them fail after dragging us thorugh the water for six books, their view is that its never gonna happen...coz hes a cynic and enjoys making the bad guys win. I say that its at the end of the series. They call me nieve and say I want a rosey ending. So in my eyes I see a bunch of people lamblasting a character for no good reason and arguing that character should fail spectacularly because thats what they want to see.

[total1402]

In the sense that Dany need not become Aegon the Conqueror v2.0 to retake the throne or tell the story. Of course Dany's story has been different from Aegon I's heretofore, but we don't know much about Aegon's pre-conquest life either.

It would be odd if the Dragons were taken from her at this point in time. Shes only just gotten one of them back and learned how to train it.

[Mummer's Fart]

It would be odd if the Dragons were taken from her at this point in time. Shes only just gotten one of them back and learned how to train it.

It would be odd to have Robb Stark butchered, humiliated and ruined but here we are. :crying:

[total1402]

It would be odd to have Robb Stark butchered, humiliated and ruined but here we are. :crying:

Yeah but Robb was not a POV character and that whole book couldn't have been any more ominous and dread filled. Plus Cats fears over her children and Robbs youthful honour are specifically singled out as fatal cracks throughout the early books. All of which culminates in the Red Wedding. Its an event thats built up and you know that Robbs not going to have it that good early in the series.

With the sole exception of the mid part of GoT and obviously Storm of Swords Danny really has had a terrible time of it and ADWD was clearly "the gods punishment to humble her" because of how good she was in SoS. So I'd expect her to do good in the next one and then whatever happens in the next one.

[Fantôme]

Thats just a colourful exaggeration on my part. Generally if people want main characters in a story dead or to fail it means they're directing an insult. If you find them boring, or annoying then just forget about them and don't bother reading them. Its not neccesary to go to great lengths to describe why this character should crash and burn. I thus feel justified cutting them from the same cloth.

Except that the poster didn't talk about people who " want main characters in a story dead or to fail" but simply about people who don't like or don't care about Dany. Is it also justified to cut them from the same cloth? Plus I don't see how wanting a character to fail is directing an insult, or remotely comparable to wanting her to be raped.

Given that this was the prescribed view f what was going to happen up until ADWD when they introduced this character then I don't know why you see at as bad. My view about Danys story has always been a good pay off for a long wait in which the hero suffers countless troubles and problems. My OP argued that Dany's thunder had been stolen because, much like Arya doesn't get any revenge over her characters as other people kill them first, other characters beat Dany to the punch and trivialise her own story. Another Targ goes to Westeros, she follows. But others seem to think that this is the set-up to Dany being defeated. That all this build-up is just to pull the rug from my feet and throw some tragic death just to make the asinine point that we can't always get what we want and the right people don't always win. In my view that is just a malicious opinion held be people who want the character dead and use her as a pun for jokes. Its not just that people expect this to happen. They actively seem to want a main character dead because in their eyes she was weak, is annoying and indecisive when really Martin made it impossible for her to actually leave.

So let me get this straight. You're not happy with Arya's story because she's robbed of her revenge and with Dany because she's robbed of her shiny/awesome moment. I just don't understand that given the nature of the book. I mean, it's basically the same as saying " I wanted and/or expected this character to die a horrible death so I'm not happy that he's successful" . That's what I mean with wishful thinking and expectations. You seem to feel that if Martin gave you a particular hope and impression (that Dany will do this or that) , it has to happen and another alternative is disappointing.

Also I don't see it as particularly bad, I just think it's less interesting than what we've been given, particularly because it was expected.And because I like the idea of a second dance of dragons.

Also you seem to deem other people's expectations about Dany's storyline as less valid than yours .They probably think the contrary.

[total1402]

Um, I'am sorry, but if you dislike a character its largely the same thing and she did say that she wanted Dany to fail.

Why do you believe that doing what isn't expected is an inherent good in writing? If Danys only purpose was to bring Dragons into the world then having her die ignomoniously is just a cheap shot. It would have been better in that case to just have the character non POV, introduce her like Aegon and have people occasionally refer to what shes doing. Don't bother getting people invested in what a characters going to do, if the whole point is that they don't amount to anything.

I don't have a problem with a Second Dance with Dragons. Only one that involves Dany dying and then. Wow. Lets just give these dragons to the Starks, that everyone seems to be hankering for. Again, if thats what he wanted why not just make introduce Dany in ADWD and make her a minor character rather than lead us to assume the character was going somewhere?

Look on other posts I've done. I don't mind people having other opinions and I'll accept when I'am wrong. But if a view simply stems from people hating a character and enjoying making fun of them I don't see why I should treat that view with the courtesy I give to others. It sinks under my skin that they talk so trivially about a character failing epically after six books and not achieving anything.

Don't tell me you're saying that the Freys and Boltons not getting whats coming to them would be good in the end?

[Fantôme]

Why do you believe that doing what isn't expected is an inherent good in writing?

Didn't say that. I said it was more interesting.I meant In that particular case and for me.

Um, I'am sorry, but if you dislike a character its largely the same thing and she did say that she wanted Dany to fail.

Why ,you want characters you don't like to be raped?I personally don't. I doubt she does.

If Danys only purpose was to bring Dragons into the world then having her die ignomoniously is just a cheap shot.was to bring Dragons into the world then having her die ignomoniously is just a cheap shot. It would have been better in that case to just have the character non POV, introduce her like Aegon and have people occasionally refer to what shes doing. Don't bother getting people invested in what a characters going to do, if the whole point is that they don't amount to anything

.I don't have a problem with a Second Dance with Dragons. Only one that involves Dany dying and then. Wow. Lets just give these dragons to the Starks, that everyone seems to be hankering for. Again, if thats what he wanted why not just make introduce Dany in ADWD and make her a minor character rather than lead us to assume the character was going somewhere?

But that wasn't your argument. You were saying you weren't happy that Aegon stole her shine and that's what I was arguing with.I don't want Dany to die uselessly or to give away her dragons so no debate there.