Am I the only one who thinks Aegon stole Danys thunder?

[ARYa_Nym]

Whoever overthrows Cersei won't necessarily be king in the end. & if the t.v. show is anything to go by given Dany's vision destruction may come to KL via fire and ice.

[total1402]

Except it doesn't matter WHY Dany knows nothing about what's going on in Westeros, and it doesn't matter WHY she stays in Meereen. All that matters, for the purposes of determining whether or not she's likely to succeed in conquering Westeros, is that she didn't know what the conditions were like in Westeros and that she chose to stay in Meereen rather than heading on to Westeros. The fact that slaves were suffering in Meereen has no effect whatsoever on the issue of whether throwing over Cersei or throwing over Aegon/Connington is more beneficial to Dany's conquest of Westeros. She can't just go to the smallfolk and lords of Westeros, calmly explain to them how unfair the whole situation is, and expect them all to nod in agreement and just hand over the crown. Dany's victory is not, and never was, guaranteed, and the universe cannot be expected to conspire to give Dany everything she wants. She made a choice, and choices have consequences.

No, the why is very important. You are implying that Dany is a bad leader and couldn't conquer Westeros because of the choices she has made. I'am saying that her very distance from Westeros, the curious silence and the fact that nobody tried to contact her until it was too late because their plots were hidden severely hindered her ability to react to events. She doesn't know things are that bad in Westeros. These aren't all character flaws that shes being punished for like in the Red Wedding these are events out of her control and which she can't be held accountable for. If she had known from the beginning that she was promised to Quentyn she would never have countenanced promising to marry Hidazhr. If she had known that Illyrio had Aegon and the Goldne Company to take her Unsullied to Westeros then she would have just organized things at Astapor or simply tagged along with them. People have kept her in the dark. it is their fault that events have turned out like this since Dany doesn't know about the imperative of reaching Westeros before events are less fortuitous.

Really, I'd say most of the last two books were specifically about conspiring to give Dany everything she needed. Vic and his fleet. Quentyn. Tyrion. Her training her dragons. Its not her fault that Quentyn was impatient and got himself killed. If he had waited for Dany to lop Hidazhars head off because hes a harpy then it wouldn't have been that bad. Also, Drogon taking her away isn't her fault when all this was coming together. basically the characters situation is only partially to do with the mistakes she has made.

It has been well established by Tyrion and others that dragons are immensely powerful. They destroyed the greatest fortress the world had ever seen and defeated a massive army. Tyrion says that they are practically immune in flight to even heavy siege machines like scorpians and mangonals. As somebody else remarked, they are like the worms in Dune, they are massively OP and not amount of conventional force is going to change that.

[total1402]

Whoever overthrows Cersei won't necessarily be king in the end. & if the t.v. show is anything to go by given Dany's vision destruction may come to KL via fire and ice.

I wondered about that. I thought she saw somebody frozen to the throne. Do you think she saw Aegon then and assumed it was Rhaegar?

[ARYa_Nym]

I wondered about that. I thought she saw somebody frozen to the throne. Do you think she saw Aegon then and assumed it was Rhaegar?

There are different interpretations. Some thought that the snow signified Snow on the throne. Others thought that no one was sitting on it.. The Others had already gotten that far down destroyed KL & someone reigned fire on it given the Harrenhal like ceiling.

[tze]

No, the why is very important. You are implying that Dany is a bad leader and couldn't conquer Westeros because of the choices she has made.

No, I'm saying that Dany made choices in Essos with wide-reaching ripple effects, consequences that seem poised to be disasterous to a Westerosi conquest.

Really, I'd say most of the last two books were specifically about conspiring to give Dany everything she needed. Vic and his fleet. Quentyn. Tyrion. Her training her dragons. Its not her fault that Quentyn was impatient and got himself killed. If he had waited for Dany to lop Hidazhars head off because hes a harpy then it wouldn't have been that bad. Also, Drogon taking her away isn't her fault when all this was coming together. basically the characters situation is only partially to do with the mistakes she has made.

You're just proving my point here. Staying in Meereen did not lead to circumstances ripening for Dany's conquest of Westeros. By staying in Meereen, circumstances now provide for an alliance with the Ironborn, and pretty much everyone in Westeros loathes the Ironborn. Quentyn got killed in her home by her dragon---instead of Dornish aid, she's going to have Dornish enmity.You keep saying these things "aren't her fault". It doesn't matter whether these things are her fault. What matters is that they happened, and there will be fallout, and Dany can't use good intentions to in any way mitigate that fallout.

[The Lost Lord]

No, the why is very important. You are implying that Dany is a bad leader

That is not what tze is saying. Tze is saying that extremely good conditions for her to successfully conquer Westeros existed around the time of AFFC, but those conditions will no longer exist by the time she gets over there. This is not about making excuses for Dany or criticizing her. It's a simple assessment of the political situation that exists in Westeros. At the end of AFFC (according to the info we had) Dany was perfectly positioned to fly in and be the savior of Westeros. But three things happened in ADWD to ruin this:

(1) Aegon invaded first, he'll be successful and take the "savior" mantle just as tze outlined, and the support Dany may have gotten would go to him. Support of Westerosi and recent Westerosi exiles, not of foreigners.

(2) Dany lost Dorne, probably forever. Dorne has been set up as impossible to conquer even with dragons, and as a people who irrationally hold really strong grudges forever. At the end of ADWD the surviving Dornish are already repeating exaggerated stories of how Dany drove Quentyn to his death. Dorne will back Aegon and when Dany casts doubt on Aegon's claim, or goes to war with him, they'll be her eternal foes. This is another instance where choices have consequences and her lack of attention to the Quentyn situation will come back to haunt her.

(3) Dany is on her way to assembling an invading coalition that's all but designed to turn the people of Westeros against her -- magical monsters, foreign eunuchs, foreign freed slaves, Dothraki, despised ironborn, and a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf. Like, she couldn't assemble a more unpopular coalition if she tried.

Basically if Dany showed up at the end of AFFC she would've been loved, saving the people from that terrible Cersei. But if Aegon does it first and starts stabilizing Westeros as crowds cheer and hoist dragon banners for their handsome young prince -- and then Dany shows up with a bunch of foreigners and ironborn monsters demanding to take what is hers -- she'll be hated and viewed as a destructive destabilizing force. All because of when she's showing up, and who she's showing up with.

[total1402]

No, I'm saying that Dany made choices in Essos with wide-reaching ripple effects, consequences that seem poised to be disasterous to a Westerosi conquest.

You're just proving my point here. Staying in Meereen did not lead to circumstances ripening for Dany's conquest of Westeros. By staying in Meereen, circumstances now provide for an alliance with the Ironborn, and pretty much everyone in Westeros loathes the Ironborn. Quentyn got killed in her home by her dragon---instead of Dornish aid, she's going to have Dornish enmity.You keep saying these things "aren't her fault". It doesn't matter whether these things are her fault. What matters is that they happened, and there will be fallout, and Dany can't use good intentions to in any way mitigate that fallout.

Or the consequences are she gets the very people who are most likely to actually pull off an invasion of Westeros and not idealists like Martell. She would have been hated for the Unsullied and by her enemies anyway. Its not clear who the people would actually support in the event and would probably be too busy with winter to care. Though dragons=fire so that might sway the fire worshippers in the riverlands. Again not something to win a lot of love for Dany. But I think thats the point as others have said, she has what seems like the villains army but is a really nice n well-meaning person n her cause is just. Such attacks on her character would be no different from what the Yunkai said about her, some truth to it but ultimately just propaganda which twists how people percieve her.

[total1402]

Basically if Dany showed up at the end of AFFC she would've been loved, saving the people from that terrible Cersei. But if Aegon does it first and starts stabilizing Westeros as crowds cheer and hoist dragon banners for their handsome young prince -- and then Dany shows up with a bunch of foreigners and ironborn monsters demanding to take what is hers -- she'll be hated and viewed as a destructive destabilizing force. All because of when she's showing up, and who she's showing up with.

But unlike Stannis she'd actually win because they are the best of everything and I don't think the perception of her, like what the Yunkai told of her would hold true if people actually met her.

Plus, Aegon did conquer Dorne he just couldn't stop them rebelling as far as I'am aware. Really, Dany has actually had a lot of experience fighting in desert conditions and would be a familiar envornment for her unsullied and Dothraki. More so than snow bound Westeros. Plus, winter will rob Dorne of its main defences such as heat and lack of water.

Actually, why don't we add a couple more evil people who could join her ;)

-Cersei, the mad Queen, coz Aegon is going to kill Tommen and if she wants his life she'd have to go with Dany. Along with Qyburn and all his necromancer stuff.

-Jamie the Kingslayer. How could she treat with the man who murdered her own father!

-Briene-she murdered good King Renly!

-Cat Stoneheart-shes undead!

-The Red Priest and his fireworshippers-Shes aiding blasphemers!

-Victarion-he murdered his own wife!

-Tyrion-Killed his own father, poisoned his nephew and hes a dwarf!

-Ser Jorah-An evil malicious slaver! look, he even has a daemon burned into his skull!

-Dothraki-No!!!

-Unsullied-Evil, nasty, nasty Eunuchs! Not like Varys. ;)

-Jon Snow-he let the wildlings past the wall and aided Stannis a vile heretic and oathbreaker!

-Smallfolk-How dare she call on the lower sort to rise against their masters, as if the common people matter in choosing their ruler! The simpler minds must just be beguiled by this daemon queens beauty!

But OP I would have rather had the "dread" coalition on its own rather than another Targ coming as it makes the OMG moment less sweet. But it would be funny to see them misconstrue Danys army exactly like the Yunkai did.

[The Lost Lord]

But unlike Stannis she'd actually win because they are the best of everything

Remember Meereen? Winning the populace is crucial. Not just having the brute force necessary for conquest.

I don't think the perception of her, like what the Yunkai told of her would hold true if people actually met her.

This sort of thing basically never happens in Martin's world. Did the people of King's Landing love Tyrion after they got to know him?

Actually, why don't we add a couple more evil people who could join her

Those will not be her opponents. Aegon will be her main opponent when she arrives and the first impression she gives to Westeros will be defined in opposition to him. Tze already quoted how Tyrion explained to Aegon during the cyvasse game how this will work, it's pretty clear foreshadowing: "The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place.”

And as internally divided as Westeros currently is, the quickest way to unite such a divided country is to present it with a foreign threat. The more foreign Dany's army is, the more Westeros will unite against her. That's why it's so consequential that Aegon is set to pick up all the support from the anti-Cersei Westerosi. Bringing over the Dothraki would be worst of all, if she in fact does this. If you think the starving smallfolk of Westeros will love Dany when she brings a ton of brutal rampaging hungry foreigners to their doorstep, then... I would beg to differ.

[total1402]

I don't think the foreshadowing was aimed towards Dany. Tyrions critique, which, again, he was trying to trick Aegon to proove that such an idea won't work and that he should keep his dragons close; is aimed towards his character. I think by the end of FoC Cersei has ALREADY been replaced and more competent leaders are ready to fill the gaps. Not Kevin or Mace. But serious men like Euron and Baelish whose power is still serious enough. Your guess that Aegon will suceed is based upon Tyrion being wrong about how striking early is a fools plan and that being cautious is the better idea. I find that hard to believe that Tyrion would get the situation that totally wrong and that YG would be the man to replace Cersei. I actually think that he has struck too late because Cersei has already been removed from the game.

I think the term popular needs to be looked at. There were more slaves in Mereen and in the east than the Ghiscari. The majority of people were over-whelmingly for 'the Mother of Dragons'. Dany's problem was that she refused to countenance using force to quell the Ghiscari, slaughtering them inside their city could have easily solved her problems but she had too much of a heart to do that. The Sons of the Harpy were literally just a few sons or jired thugs of the noble houses assasinating people. Likewise, in Volantis, the bulk of the population are fire wirshippers and believe Dany is Azzor Hai; yet Volantis still goes to war to face Dany. its actually a tiny group in the east which opposes her who happen to be the (tiny) ruling elite and economic/military powerhouses of the East. I listed the peasants under my "axis of evil" because if they did rise with dragon banners flying then it would naturally be seen as evil by the Lords; even though the smallfolk are a clear majority.

You say winning the population over is important, but that physically appearing and showing you're not a tyranical monster who bathes in the blood of children isn't important? Also, why would the writer set up Dany to have all these very capable but morally questionable groups who Westerosi will hate if not to be ironic? Plus, if you look at what Sansa and Sandor explain repeatedly then there is zero difference between a foriegn hoarde and an army of "chivalrous" knights; most of whom are little better than scum. The actions of Gregor Cleganes men, the Freys and the Boltons prooves that most of them are if anything as bad as the Dothraki and Ironborn; in many instances worse. I mean the Boltons (Greyjoys ;)) sacked Winterfell and butchered its inhabitants whilst the Unsullied prevented the worst atrocities from occuring when the slave army took Mereen. Even men of the Kingsguard have been shown to be utter sadists. To my mind if Martin wanted to really hammer home that point then showing the differences (or lack thereof) between the two dragons hosts would be a good plot device to do that

[The Lost Lord]

I actually think that he has struck too late because Cersei has already been removed from the game.

I don't think so. I think the end of ADWD sets her up for a pretty big temporary comeback before she will be taken down spectacularly.

But serious men like Euron and Baelish whose power is still serious enough.

It is not plausible for either of those two to make a play for King's Landing. Baelish may well back YG. Euron might not even be in Westeros right now.

I find that hard to believe that Tyrion would get the situation that totally wrong and that YG would be the man to replace Cersei.

Tyrion had no way to know for sure that the conditions would perfectly align for Aegon to actually succeed. But they have.

I think the term popular needs to be looked at… The majority of people were over-whelmingly for 'the Mother of Dragons'… Likewise, in Volantis, the bulk of the population are fire wirshippers and believe Dany is Azzor Hai...

But why do Essosi commoners support her? It's not because she's a nice person or because dragons are kewl. It's because she freed slaves. And there are no slaves in Westeros. And there's been zero set-up for a broad-based peasant rebellion against the feudal system. So why the heck would Westerosi commoners want to buy what Dany is selling, if by this point they already have a perfectly good Targaryen who saved them from the bad queen Cersei?

Also, why would the writer set up Dany to have all these very capable but morally questionable groups who Westerosi will hate if not to be ironic?

Because he never intended Dany to successfully conquer and rule Westeros and he is sowing the seeds of her eventual failure.

The actions of Gregor Cleganes men, the Freys and the Boltons prooves that most of them are if anything as bad as the Dothraki and Ironborn; in many instances worse…. Plus, if you look at what Sansa and Sandor explain repeatedly then there is zero difference between a foriegn hoarde and an army of "chivalrous" knights; most of whom are little better than scum.

So what? We're talking about public perception and winning over the populace. Once again, the quickest way to unite a divided population is to present them with a foreign threat. Example: all of human history. Trust me, however much the smallfolk might resent the Lannisters and Boltons, they'll hate the Dothraki many, many times more.

[total1402]

Because he never intended Dany to successfully conquer and rule Westeros and he is sowing the seeds of her eventual failure.

Which would IMO be a serious let down after leading us on for five or more books to have her beaten by a peripheral character who shows up in the last few books. Also, what point would he be making, you can't win coz things are against you coz I wrote you to fail mofo? Why bother writing in a character like that just to have them fail and die? I'am sorry but I really cannot accept that he would be that casual about killing off a main character and the Dragons just for a shock value event. Build-up really can't just be played around with when you're building suspense among your readers and expect them to enjoy random twists like Dany being killed and having this Aegon steal her dragons. It would be a massive let down for me. It would be like if Sansa had been thrown out of the Eyrie by Lysa or Arya had died at Harrenhal before they get to achieve anything. It just really shouldn't be done in a long-term fantasy epic and carries a lot of risk. Maybe if he decides nobody likes Dany like most people on this forum and wouldn't mind her being killed but otherwise theres no legit reason to abruptly terminate one main characters story. You could point to characters like Robb and Ned being killed. But theres a crucial difference, they failed because of character flaws, Dany, you say, is going to fail because events have conspired to make it impossible for her to win. All these scumbags are the only people who will back her, her brother Aegon takes Westeros and wins the hearts of all of Westeros. Again, what point is being made there? Dany has no actual character flaw nor has she made any serious mistakes; everything has occured witohut her knowledge due to reasons beyond her control. If you just write it so that Dany fails because of events around her then it just doesn't achieve anything other than shock value.

Also, how would she lose? She has dragons, far better troops and an incredible fleet. Even if the smallfolk flock to Aegon, are they really going to try fighting a dragon in the field? Plus, why would Martin support a Mary Sue Aegon getting all the noble lords of Westeros and chivalry of Westeros to beat Danys evil hoard? If the Lannister victory in the second book showed, he doesn't let good guys win and Aegon would really just lead them to another field of fire. Obviously to us we know Dany is a nice person but to them she is this, well, Sauron. :) I just think that irony would be how he would roll with it.

If she did die then I would want her killers blood and place their names alongside the Boltons and Freys on the Scroll of Vengence. ;) I think poor Ser Jorah would turn into Kratos if Dany actually died.

[The Lost Lord]

Which would IMO be a serious let down after leading us on for five or more books to have her beaten by a peripheral character who shows up in the last few books. … Maybe if he decides nobody likes Dany like most people on this forum and wouldn't mind her being killed but otherwise theres no legit reason to abruptly terminate one main characters story… her brother Aegon takes Westeros and wins the hearts of all of Westeros. gain, what point is being made there?

Oh, maybe I wasn't clear. I never meant that Aegon himself would beat Dany, or that Dany will suddenly die long before the end of the series. I fully expect Dany to turn Westeros upside down and win many great victories in battle, and her plotline will be one of the two main ones going right up to the end of the series. She might even kill Aegon right after she lands. But I'm saying that in the long term she'll be unable to pacify Westeros, and she won't end the series on the throne.

Dany has no actual character flaw nor has she made any serious mistakes; everything has occured witohut her knowledge due to reasons beyond her control. If you just write it so that Dany fails because of events around her then it just doesn't achieve anything other than shock value.

Well first of all a big part of the drama will be how Dany reacts to showing up and seeing her alleged nephew on the Iron Throne instead of the Usurper's son. She has three dragons and an army of foreigners, but a worse claim (allegedly) and what will she do? How will she handle her suspicions about the true origins of the "mummer's dragon"? When war inevitably breaks out she will have to make many other choices, generally about how destructive she wants to be -- who will she want to roast with dragons? How many people? So she will have to make many choices going forward.

Now I said I thought she was doomed because of (1) Aegon's appearance, (2) Losing Dorne, (3) Unpopular invading coalition. The first two were a combination of out of her control and in her control, the third is entirely in her control. (1) The mistake here was staying in Meereen. She didn't know the Cersei details, but her latest information was that the war of five kings was going on, and everyone knows that a time of instability is the best time to invade, and she had her army, yet she decided to stay in Meereen for an indefinite period. It was very morally admirable that she cared about Meereenese lives, but strategically, given the information she had, the time to strike in Westeros was then -- and someone else saw that opportunity and did it first. (2) Her lack of attention to Quentyn's offer was really egregious. At the time she thought she'd stay in Meereen for years longer, so she rejected him and Dorne. Then three chapters later she had a vision quest and decided to go to Westeros. Unfortunately for her, she has already let Dorne slip through her fingers. Sometimes you have to seize an opportunity when it presents itself. (3) It will certainly be Dany's own fault if she chooses to bring Dothraki and ironborn to Westeros and ends up being hated for it. I am sure there will be some discussion in the next book about whether the added military power the Dothraki represent will be worth the risk of turning the population against her, because this is totally foreseeable.

[LadyMondragon]

I actually don't think it will be *THAT* easy for "Aegon".

The Westerosi lords and small folk have been told repeatedly that Aegon was murdered at the hands of Gregor Clegane... all of a sudden, he shows up, alive and well, and ready to take the Iron Throne after being smuggled out and hidden for years? It seems far fetched.

I personally don't believe that "Aegon" is a legitimate Targaryen. I agree with the general concensus that he is a Blackfyre pretender. He may not know it himself... but those around him who have taught him who he is... they all know. I hope in TWoW, he is exposed for the fraud that he is.

As for Dany... I agree that "Aegon" showing up has made her arrival in Westeros all the more anti-climactic, but if we know anything about GRRM... he's going to twist this around in ways that we couldn't think up. I've rooted for her since the beginning (I'm biased... last name is MonDragon so anything that has to do with Dragons is automatically my favorite!) but I can't (and won't) try to understand GRRM's direction for Daenerys. He knows what he is doing... we just have to sit back and wait for it to unfold.

[total1402]

No, the Unsullied, Ironborn and Tyrions sellswords are the only groups able and willing to help her. Unless she goes to Westeros on her own with just her three dragons shes not going. This became certain after Illyrio, Martell and Varys with the Golden Company refused to send Westerosi forces to help her. Again, not her fault that these people support her and are the only hand shes been dealt. Refuse them and she just makes more enemies needlessly. She never asked for these people, but she can hardly say no to them. The War of Five Kings was a good time to attack, but without a fleet, even if she could reach Pentos by land an invasion would have been impossible. She also, to her knowledge had no allies in Westeros and as you yourself have said nothing brings people together like an invasion of Unsullied backed by foriegners in the Free Cities. Her situation wouln't have been any different. She was always in the position that she had to use unpopular forces in the East and herself remarks that its ludicrous that the people of Westeros would welcome her with open arms. Indeed her cynicism about this may have been part of the reason why she stayed in Mereen where she genuinely was loved and ignored Ser Barristan and Jorah Mormont that their apathetic or hostile view would change if she went.

Why do you believe that after all this bloodshed and grimdarkiness, there won't be a happy ending? If the Others are defeated by Dany (as you yourself imply) and others then its hard to see peoples view not changing about her.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that Dany will fail in long run, because she won't acknowledge that her forces are spectacular collection of those that Westerosi hate the most.

Actually the only way she can win any support is to pull Stannis and go to the Wall, because luckily for her there is someone worse than her allies after all - the Others.

[total1402]

I think that Dany will fail in long run, because she won't acknowledge that her forces are spectacular collection of those that Westerosi hate the most.

Actually the only way she can win any support is to pull Stannis and go to the Wall, because luckily for her there is someone worse than her allies after all - the Others.

My view is that Martin set Dany up to win but has had to make it seem incredibly difficult and take a long time in order for this to happen in order to be 'believable'. Plus, a defeat like Stannis suffered would be immensely anti-climatic. Stannis campaign was only something that happened during one book, that he stole from Renly and was never a POV character. The same can be said of Tywin who was disposed of after winning the War of Five Kings. You can't have a plot point which literally makes all that you've done in 6/7 books irrelevent and not count for anything. Otherwise why didn't Dany just fly her dragons to the wall after living out in the wilderness. Again, you can't lead your audience on like that and it would be far more satisfying, at the end of the series to conclude with her winning after all this glacial build-up to the main event. Pulling the carpet out from Dany's goal in the last book just doesn't make any sense and wouldn't add anything to the story. I would only feel like the author had wasted my time.

[Caelestis]

The reason behind 'Aegon' being so much more succesful and 'stealing Dany's thunder' also largely depends on one man, if we can call him that: Varys.

In my opinion, the whole point of ADwD and the very existence of Aegon (whether he's legimate or not) lies with the fact that we finally learned that he is Varys's endgame and we've finally got a glimpse on what one of the two grand masters at the Game of Thrones really wants: a ruler on the Iron Throne that he moulded and can control. Regardless of whether he's fake or not, he's poised for succes partly because Varys and Illyrio (and the countless people like Jon Connington they arranged to guide him) are watching over him every step, whereas Viserys and Dany were left to their own devices.

Now that we know about Aegon's existence, it seems clear to me that Viserys and Dany were only taken in by Illyrio and had the alliance with Khal Drogo arranged for them because Varys intended them to be the 'enemy' that Aegon would save Westeros from. Khal Drogo's unexpected death ruined that plan, but it didn't matter, since a very convenient conflict had already emerged, mostly thanks to Littlefinger's scheming: the War of the Five Kings. With the chaos that Lanniser (mis)rule has brought to the Seven Kingdoms, the people are going to be clamouring for a heroic young Targaryen prince to take the Iron Throne.

Naturally, Daenerys was about to receive an offer of a true alliance with Aegon after all, but probably only because Varys cares about the real and symbolic value of Dany's dragons: a marriage with Daenerys would cement Aegon's position as a true Targaryen as well as making his forces unstoppable. But Dany herself put a fire to that bridge when she stayed in Meereen and Aegon himself burned it for good when he decided to follow Tyrion's advice.

What I'm trying to say is that, Varys and Illyrio have essentially delivered Aegon everything, from his education, to Jon Connington, to the Golden Company. Until Dany's dragons were born, she and Viserys were nothing more than pawns in their hands. The reason Aegon's rise doesn't seem like a cop-out to me is because he was always set up for victory, whereas Dany has been facing an uphill struggle all along.

[Ice Turtle]

My view is that Martin set Dany up to win but has had to make it seem incredibly difficult and take a long time in order for this to happen in order to be 'believable'. Plus, a defeat like Stannis suffered would be immensely anti-climatic. Stannis campaign was only something that happened during one book, that he stole from Renly and was never a POV character. The same can be said of Tywin who was disposed of after winning the War of Five Kings. You can't have a plot point which literally makes all that you've done in 6/7 books irrelevent and not count for anything. Otherwise why didn't Dany just fly her dragons to the wall after living out in the wilderness. Again, you can't lead your audience on like that and it would be far more satisfying, at the end of the series to conclude with her winning after all this glacial build-up to the main event. Pulling the carpet out from Dany's goal in the last book just doesn't make any sense and wouldn't add anything to the story. I would only feel like the author had wasted my time.

We probably have to agree to disagree. She is reaching very hight, but for me she just hasn't showed that she had it in her to reach her official goal - united and peaceful Westeros with her as the only ruler. She has good intentions (more or less) and bad methods. Tyrion as Hand may solve a lot of her problems, but so far her story feels as preparation for spectacular epic fail. Why would be her story irrelevant if she failed? Dark road with darker end - that is a nature of tragedy.

[total1402]

We probably have to agree to disagree. She is reaching very hight, but for me she just hasn't showed that she had it in her to reach her official goal - united and peaceful Westeros with her as the only ruler. She has good intentions (more or less) and bad methods. Tyrion as Hand may solve a lot of her problems, but so far her story feels as preparation for spectacular epic fail. Why would be her story irrelevant if she failed? Dark road with darker end - that is a nature of tragedy.

I believe that theory drove the Mass Effect three ending. Darkness has a light at the end of the tunnel. That is and always will be my belief. Pulling a tragic ending after so much suffering on the characters part over so many books, with no respite whatsoever is a recipe for disaster. Again leading your audience on for the sake of "Jokes on u" is a terrible, terrible thing to do and what stuns me is that so many people think that this is the best thing GRR Martin can do.