Am I the only one who thinks Aegon stole Danys thunder?

[Faint]

It occurs to me that neither Aegon 'Targaryen' nor Daenerys make good candidates for taking the throne in the end. But as for Aegon stealing Daenerys' thunder, that doesn't seem very probable either. If anything, Daenerys is destined to defeat Aegon or, at least, slay the lie that he represents (which seems the same thing because if Aegon isn't the Aegon he thinks he is, his hopes of achieving the Iron Throne are basically nullified).

[total1402]

It occurs to me that neither Aegon 'Targaryen' nor Daenerys make good candidates for taking the throne in the end. But as for Aegon stealing Daenerys' thunder, that doesn't seem very probable either. If anything, Daenerys is destined to defeat Aegon or, at least, slay the lie that he represents (which seems the same thing because if Aegon isn't the Aegon he thinks he is, his hopes of achieving the Iron Throne are basically nullified).

Yeah, but as somebody said earlier, the fact that a Targ, fake or no, has landed means Dany's entry is going to just be another targ faction come late to the fight. Her only defining feature becomes 'the one with the dragons'.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Everything happens because Martin wants it too happen. It's not any more plot convenient than the way Dany sacked Astapor or even the way Jon was elected for Lord Commander. And "a silver haired snot stain", while certainly applicable to "Aegon", fits kind of nicely about Dany too, IMO.

The return of Dany is important. The return of Dany in order to take the Iron Throne isn't. She's Azor Ahai, her purpose in the grand scheme is far more integral than becoming yet another combatant in the civil war. Dany's desire is to get the throne, yes; her plot, though, clearly leads somewhere else.

While I agree with your overarching point, I have to suggest that Dany being AA isn't a done deal yet, and many of us think she's a giant red herring in that regard.

[total1402]

While I agree with your overarching point, I have to suggest that Dany being AA isn't a done deal yet, and many of us think she's a giant red herring in that regard.

I don't get what the appeal of Jon Snow is exactly and why so many people are taken with him. Myself, I never cared about him as a character, only as a plot device to narrate events at the wall and with Stannis in the North. Not at all like Jamie or Davos and especially Tyrion who is awesome dwarf-sauce. ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If GRR Martin wanted to make an element of the story fall flat on prupose then, I'am sorry but you shouldn't lead your audience on like that for five books just to disappoint them.

GRRM has no obligation to do what you or I or anyone else expects. That predictability would actually make the story boring. The unexpectedness is actually a lot of the reason the series is so compelling. GRRM has thrown enough tropes on their heads that if you still believe that it's going to be Dany saving the day with rainbows and puppies, it's kind of your own fault. It should be clear by now that a pat ending or even a suggested ending isn't going to happen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't get what the appeal of Jon Snow is exactly and why so many people are taken with him.

I feel the same way about Dany and find your investment in her and indignation on her behalf baffling. I hope she falls flat on her face.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I don't think aegon is stealing dany thunder

he's seizing the opurturnity dany misses

[total1402]

GRRM has no obligation to do what you or I or anyone else expects. That predictability would actually make the story boring. The unexpectedness is actually a lot of the reason the series is so compelling. GRRM has thrown enough tropes on their heads that if you still believe that it's going to be Dany saving the day with rainbows and puppies, it's kind of your own fault. It should be clear by now that a pat ending or even a suggested ending usn't going to happen.

No I expected her to bring blood and fire to Westeros. I expected death and ruin. Nothing unexpected has happened in this series, you could see the Red Wedding a mile away and Ned Starks death was easy to anticipate. Those events were clearly done because failure added more to the story than succes. Dany losing, well, isn't going to do anything, its a lot of effort over a lot of books to have a very small pay off of seeing her get killed. The series is compelling for me because I enjoy watching events unfold and take sudden turns. Not simply have major plot arches cut off at the end of the series coz its funny.

Fine then, the Others win, everybody dies and a part of me with it. I learn that everyone is a sadist, a vicious scumbag and I should expect the worst from people. What a lovely grimdark ending. If I wanted that I would just read 40k about marines bashing in Tau skulls and daemons eating peoples entrails. I do not understand the fetishism which surrounds grimdark stories and makes people assume that they are inherently better than ones which are happy and resolve the characters issue.

GRR Martin is asking for my money. If I don't like the direction of his books and he hacks me off I don't buy his works its that simple. He is doing for money as a business. Don't bring artistic integrity into this argument. I feel as if the character Dany was going to do something in the books after a long build-up. I wanted to see her and her dragons kill stuff. My impression was that the delay was simply because the pay-off was going to be good. Not some silly, oh lets just kill off cause its funny.

What tropes or idioms are you even on about? Dark fantasy is not a new genre nor is it even origional in any sense. I never got any impression that he was breaking with any fantasy tradition, unlike Wars of Light and Shadow which goes out of its way to mock and satirise elements of fantasy literature.

[total1402]

I feel the same way about Dany and find your investment in her and indignation on her behalf baffling. I hope she falls flat on her face.

You mean you hope I fall flat on my face right? :)

I like Dany because shes suffered a lot in exile and has done so thorughout the series. Taking a lot of hard situations and trying to overcome them and being dealt utterly cruel blows at every turn. Shes also a genuinely good person. I thus sympathise with her and want her to succeed because she is a woman wronged and watching her try and overcome these things is interesting. As you may guess from my avatar picture of St Sabbat I also have a soft spot for female characters killing things. ;) A more shallow reason i admit and it doesn't detract from liking characters such as Sansa. But the idea of a Queen in exile getting three dragons and trying to retake her throne is a compelling story in of itself.

Jon Snow, is a story I've heard a lot in fantasy. Bastard child hated by everyone joins order of warriors to fight demonic army and barbarian hoarde. I don't see any origionality there. You act as if I should be surprised that the wildlings are people but thats not an origional concept either. He is also, really boring, uptight and all about doing things by the book and honour. This makes it difficult to find any apeal or reason to like him, hes just there doing what any rational person would do. Trying to navigate the rough line between honour, duty and compassion for himself, the Nights Watch, the realm and the Starks. Nothing special, nothing unique, just there on the wall, dealing with events as they come. Even in the TV show hes just this glum faced guy who I have no reason to relate to or sympathise with and my only stake in it is how his actions will affect the realm. Not the case with Tyrion or Jamie where I do sympathise with them and want them to succeed. Its just my view.

[ledlevee]

Not sure if you've read it, but there's speculation all over these boards that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre put into place by Varys. He's definitely the mummer's dragon. There's really no one else who fits the bill. If this is the case and it's brought into the open, then Dany could still have her day of glory. Aegon will probably sit on the Iron Throne for a little while, but I for one don't think his rule will last long. Also, as far as Dany's support in Westeros goes, she doesn't need any support. If she gets there with three full grown dragons, they'll roast armies of thousands and everyone will be bowing at her feet, just like they did when the original Aegon came. Of course, she'll have to get used to the concept of her dragons eating people before that will be possible. The biggest question is, who will the other two heads of the dragon be?

[total1402]

Not sure if you've read it, but there's speculation all over these boards that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre put into place by Varys. He's definitely the mummer's dragon. There's really no one else who fits the bill. If this is the case and it's brought into the open, then Dany could still have her day of glory. Aegon will probably sit on the Iron Throne for a little while, but I for one don't think his rule will last long. Also, as far as Dany's support in Westeros goes, she doesn't need any support. If she gets there with three full grown dragons, they'll roast armies of thousands and everyone will be bowing at her feet, just like they did when the original Aegon came. Of course, she'll have to get used to the concept of her dragons eating people before that will be possible. The biggest question is, who will the other two heads of the dragon be?

Oh I know about the thoery, as does the poster above. Its just that he believes that, fake or not, Martin is going to have them kill eachother after entering Westeros and her having her moment after six books is unlikely because Martin likes grimdark stuff where he makes characters we care about fail epicly.

Also, the moment would kinda be lost if this Targarian, as many believe, ends up winning the love of the people for the Targs and making them love him after his glorious return before killing Dany. So hes kinda stolen her moment and other posters are saying Martins gonna kill Dany off because its more in keeping with the spirit of the books.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Not sure if you've read it, but there's speculation all over these boards that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre put into place by Varys. He's definitely the mummer's dragon. There's really no one else who fits the bill.

Araune waters posing in mereen as aegon ( making him a fake dragon)? considering R+L=J Jon snow a dragon acting as a wolf or it could simply mean a dragon in care of a mummer (Varys)

[ledlevee]

"A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

"Mother of Dragons, slayer of lies"

As the citadel on this site states, these seem to strongly suggest a fake dragon who will be conquered by Dany. Along with the mummer's dragon prophecy, this to me says that there will be a fake dragon who will come along and make a big fuss, but eventually Dany will "slay" him and bring an end to his lies.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

GRR Martin is asking for my money. If I don't like the direction of his books and he hacks me off I don't buy his works its that simple. He is doing for money as a business. Don't bring artistic integrity into this argument. I feel as if the character Dany was going to do something in the books after a long build-up. I wanted to see her and her dragons kill stuff. My impression was that the delay was simply because the pay-off was going to be good. Not some silly, oh lets just kill off cause its funny.

Why can I not bring up artistic integrity? Do you think these books are without artistic integrity? Do you honestly think that, "The story didn't end how I wanted it, wah wah wah bitch bitch bitch" is a valid criticism? Really?

If you dislike the direction in which the books are going, you're within your rights to stop reading them. I'm kind of perplexed that you seem to think that the entire story ultimately centers on Dany and exists as a vehicle for her ultimate victory. If that's what you sincerely believe, you're probably going to be disappointed, and good riddance. I don't see how "(bratty, insufferably arrogrant) princess trying to reclaim a lost birthright from exile" is any more original than Jon's story.

[Faint]

Yeah, but as somebody said earlier, the fact that a Targ, fake or no, has landed means Dany's entry is going to just be another targ faction come late to the fight. Her only defining feature becomes 'the one with the dragons'.

I have to say, that's one hell of a defining feature! The only way somebody steals her thunder is if they come up with a giant kraken or something.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

"A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

"Mother of Dragons, slayer of lies"

As the citadel on this site states, these seem to strongly suggest a fake dragon who will be conquered by Dany. Along with the mummer's dragon prophecy, this to me says that there will be a fake dragon who will come along and make a big fuss, but eventually Dany will "slay" him and bring an end to his lies.

Pretty sure that "slayer of lies" just means she will slay the lie itself, slaying the object of the lie is optional. By the way, only one of those three lies is aboat the mummer's dragon, the other seems to be Stannis being Azor Ahai and the third one (directly before "slayer of lies") is "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire".

[the Scorpion Knight]

and what if slayer of lies means her own? (her claim)

[total1402]

Why can I not bring up artistic integrity? Do you think these books are without artistic integrity? Do you honestly think that, "The story didn't end how I wanted it, wah wah wah bitch bitch bitch" is a valid criticism? Really?

If you dislike the direction in which the books are going, you're within your rights to stop reading them. I'm kind of perplexed that you seem to think that the entire story ultimately centers on Dany is exists as a vehicle for her ultimate victory. If that's what you sincerely believe, you're probably going to be disappointed, and good riddance. I don't see how "(bratty, insufferably arrogrant) princess trying to reclaim a lost birthright from exile" is any more original than Jon's story.

This thread is about Dany. Why do you think that means I think little of them when I've repeatedly said that I like them. I like Sansa, I like Tyrion, I like Arya and all the rest of them. Only Snow and Bran do I feel apathetic towards and view them as plot devices for the wider events. Which are in themselves very good and have never involved Dany; but are great tales in their own right. Danys point is regaining Westeros. Other characters have their own thing and character problems to sort out; but that has been established for all the books.

So my view about what I would like doesn't matter then? Enjoyment is a perfectly legitimate way to judge something and of course it affects why I purchased the series. You don't buy food if you know it tastes aweful. Believe me I'am a very cynical and bloodthirsty person when it comes to sci-fi/fantasy but if I like a character I would like to see them suceed. Especially when success is the thing which has been hyped by the author as one of the climactic moments of the series. A failure after so much build up would fall flat and be like. Really? You spent all this time annoying people by not bringing her to Westeros and having no impact on the wider plot in Westeros just to have her killed on getting there. That would be a let down.

Name one story where an exile queen takes back the throne with dragons? I've never read one so it wouldn't matter. But I've read plenty where we have some bastard/young man join a mystical order to fight the ultimate evil. I've read too many grimdark books about space marines to find the stoney honourable type good and my experience with Wars of Light and Shadow just made me realise how wrong it is to equate good writing with grimdark.

[Caelestis]

Fine then, the Others win, everybody dies and a part of me with it. I learn that everyone is a sadist, a vicious scumbag and I should expect the worst from people. What a lovely grimdark ending. If I wanted that I would just read 40k about marines bashing in Tau skulls and daemons eating peoples entrails. I do not understand the fetishism which surrounds grimdark stories and makes people assume that they are inherently better than ones which are happy and resolve the characters issue.

You're going too far here.

However grim this series gets at times, there is definitely both light and dark to be found in it. There may be Littlefingers, who exploit countless innocent people for their own selfish ends, but also Starks who care deeply for one another and Dany, who neglects her claim to a kingdom to help slaves. And GRRM has stated that it was going to be a "bittersweet ending", not a horribly cruel ending. What he is trying to do is make a far more realistic Fantasy series: fantastic events, but with very real people. And I don't know if you've noticed, but there are quite a few scumbags around and as the Hound has so adequately put, "life is not a song".

And I think you're being too negative about Dany's storyline. While I can sympathise with those who found Meereen boring (hell, when a writer himself feels he's gotten stuck, how can't it be?), just because GRRM has had Aegon show up in Westeros before she did, doesn't mean that her entire plot has become irrelevant. Indeed, as you yourself have stated, it would be a complete waste of time for a writer to do so and I'm very certain that GRRM hasn't spent all this time on writing so many Dany chapters if he wasn't sure where he was going with her.

Trust me, she will arrive in Westeros and she will bring a hell of a lot of fire and blood to anyone crossing her path. Most likely, she will be instrumental in defeating the Others and even if the histories of Westeros will record her as some barbarian queen, it is the reader who understands the suffering she has been through and what good she did achieve.

GRRM is simply taking a different route than we had expected and, while you can argue about each decision he makes, I love him for it. Did I see the Red Wedding coming? In the chapters leading up to it, yeah. But I sure as hell doubted up until I saw Bolton stab Robb whether he had the balls to do it. Could anyone have predicted that the noble son of our recently beheaded protagonist was going to fail against the Lannisters, dying because of fucking Walder Frey? It are these kinds of twists and his style of storytelling that sets GRRM's series apart from many other Fantasy series, or indeed a lot of fiction in general. Yes, it's taking a while for Dany to get going, but with so many plotlines converging in Meereen, I trust GRRM and where he's taking the series.

And if you can't really stand it, then yes - stop reading these books and leave them those who do.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This post is about Dany. Don't take the slant of this topic leaning toward Danys role in the plot to either my own perceptions of the characters importance or the story. I like Sansa, I like Tyrion, I like Arya and all the rest of them. Only Snow and Bran do I feel apathetic towards and view them as plot devices for the wider events. Which are in themselves very good and have never involved Dany; but are great tales in their own right. Danys point is regaining Westeros. Other characters have their own thing and character problems to sort out; but that has been established for all the books.

So long as you're aware that many, many people dislike Dany or are apathetic to her. Some people think Dany is a plot device for wider events. It's perception, and you should understand that how YOU perceive characters and their wider roles may not be shared by everyone, or even shared by GRRM.

So my view about what I would like doesn't matter then? Enjoyment is a perfectly legitimate way to judge something and of course it affects why I purchased the series.

You're free to enjoy or not enjoy the story and its outcome all you want. Your mistake is, from how I take it, judging the artistic quality of the writing itself based on how closely it conforms to your own personal wishes for how it should turn out. Or more succinctly, the idea that the story will somehow suck if Dany doesn't win is ridiculous.

Name one story where an exile queen takes back the throne with dragons? I've never read one so it wouldn't matter. But I've read plenty where we have bastard join mystical order to fight ultimate evil. I've read too many grimdark books about space marines to find the stoney honourable type good and my experience with Wars of Light and Shadow just made me realise how wrong it is to equate good writing with grimdark.

I have no clue what you're even talking about, sorry. If I wanted to talk about Grimdark or whatever it is, I'd find a board for it.

Again, if you're that butthurt over where the story's going, stop reading.