Which great family has the most effective military?

[Chaircat Meow]

The North, they have been consistently punching above their weight- they pretty much gave the Iron Throne to Robert and beated the Lannisters at every turn.

And frankly, I find the Lannisters being mentioned ridiculous, since they are the one side on the war that didn't win a single battle- Blackwater was won by the Tyrells mostly.

Lord Tywin won the battle of the Green Fork and Jaime smashed Edmure Tully's army beneath the walls of Riverrun after Tywin fooled him into spreading his forces thin. We don't know enough about Blackwater to say it was mostly won by the Tyrells either, imo Tywin was more important there than 'I've lost half my lords bannermen' Mace Tyrell.

In addition the lannister infantry are the only force GrrM mentions as being especially well trained and disciplined.

So my vote goes to the lannisters under Lord Tywin.

[Lothar Imbel]

I would argue that the territory the Iron Born controlled was the Riverlands. An area easily invaded and controlled by the Iron Born. They decimated the local population and then easily controlled them.

The wiki says that:

"Under the rule of House Hoare, the ironborn reached the zenith of their power approximately four centuries ago. They ruled over the Riverlands and much of the western coast of Westeros"

This would include some of the North (most notably Bear Island), the Arbor and the Reach's western coast, as well as presumably some of the Westerlands, around the Banefort/The Crag. The Reach and the Westerlands are the richest and most densly populated areas of Westeros, yet they failed to stop the Ironborn from taking at least some of their lands.

What would have happened if the Starks, or Arrys, Lannisters, Gardners, or Martells brought a force against them?

To the extent that it was overwhelming? They'd run. As raiders, they'd be guerilla fighters, striking supply lines on coastal roads, villages and towns to weaken the enemy rather than attacking them directly. While we may not see it as being 'honourable' or as tough, it's certianly effective. Just ask real life vikings and the Viet Cong.

They are not fit to fight on land, and do not seem to have a mind for war, just fighting and pillaging.

Balon Greyjoy disagrees, he went to conquer.

They pick on the weakest people, the Riverlands are beyond easy to invade, with no natural borders and all.

Like the North/Reach?

I think the best example of what I am talking about is Balon Greyjoy. He waits until Robert is dead, and Ned has been killed to get his vengeance. The Starks and Baratheons crushed his rebellion. For all his talk of returning to the Old Way and being a hardened Iron Born, he was a coward. He waited until the men that crushed him were out of the picture to gain vengeance. Some may call this opportunistic, but I see it as Balon knowing he could never hope to defeat Robert or Ned and takes his vengeance on Robb.

Due to their style, the Ironborn rely on discord for sucess. I won't argue that Balon was an idiot for starting his rebellion when the realm was united under a new, strong King, and his later strategy to attack the North was motivated more by vengence than the actual pragmatism that a raider should use "durgh, Casterly Rock? Nah, I'll have the cold, infertile North."

[Only Fire and Blood?]

If we're talking at the start of the series it would have to be the Lannisters. They have the most gold which buys equipment, sellswords and the best trainers. They also had the tactical prowess of Tywin Lannister as well.

The Greyjoys due to the amount of ships they have available are also quite powerful militarily speaking. The Tyrrells may be able to field the largest army out of the seven Kingdoms but supplying some 70,000 men or so is extremely expensive and while they probably are the second richest house in Westeros its not quite enough in my opinion. Plus Mace Tyrrell has the tactical skill of a terrified rat.

[StarkSupporter]

The wiki says that:

"Under the rule of House Hoare, the ironborn reached the zenith of their power approximately four centuries ago. They ruled over the Riverlands and much of the western coast of Westeros"

This would include some of the North (most notably Bear Island), the Arbor and the Reach's western coast, as well as presumably some of the Westerlands, around the Banefort/The Crag. The Reach and the Westerlands are the richest and most densly populated areas of Westeros, yet they failed to stop the Ironborn from taking at least some of their lands.

To the extent that it was overwhelming? They'd run. As raiders, they'd be guerilla fighters, striking supply lines on coastal roads, villages and towns to weaken the enemy rather than attacking them directly. While we may not see it as being 'honourable' or as tough, it's certianly effective. Just ask real life vikings and the Viet Cong.

Balon Greyjoy disagrees, he went to conquer.

Like the North/Reach?

Due to their style, the Ironborn rely on discord for sucess. I won't argue that Balon was an idiot for starting his rebellion when the realm was united under a new, strong King, and his later strategy to attack the North was motivated more by vengence than the actual pragmatism that a raider should use "durgh, Casterly Rock? Nah, I'll have the cold, infertile North."

Before I produce my counter points, how do I quote passages as you did? That would make it a lot easier to read, instead of a wall of text.

1. They did control the Riverlands, which was the base for their power on continental Westeros. Why was that their base, because it was the easiest for them to invade and control. If only we knew more about how Harren gained the Riverlands we would have a better idea of how he controlled the Riverlands. So with knowing what we know about the present day Iron Born, I would assume that they used much of the same tactics, like a blitzkrieg assault, and then dominated the local population. Yes a quick strike on an unsuspecting opponent is a very good tactic, but not too useful in as a long term solution, once bigger badder guys get involved. Just ask Nazi Germany or Japan.

2. Yes I concede they would run and use guerrilla tactics, I argue that they are doing this not because they are warriors, but because they are pirates and pillagers. The majority of the time they are attacking merchant vessels, or fishing villages. How often do we see them attacking forts or castles? Again I'm not arguing that they use ineffective tactics (because clearly they are), but rather their tactics are centered around pirating and pillaging, those aren't exactly the tactics to use in a war.

3. How did that turn out for Balon? He got to see his two oldest sons die, and his fleet smashed. What was his greatest achievement in his rebellion? The destruction of the Lannisters fleet. They were able to destroy the fleet, and look what that got them. Would you argue that the Japanese achieved much by bombing Pearl Harbor?

4. We can use the Reach and the North as examples. By time Balon launches his assult, the North has been basically emptied of all of its fighting men. IIRC wasn't Rodrick Cassel able to beat the Iron Born away from Torrhen's Square with what was left in the North? By the time Euron sends reavers down to the Reach, hasn't much of the Tyrell forces moved north towards KL? When they invaded and controlled the Riverlands, wasn't that because the rivers allow easy transport through and because the Riverlands have no natural borders?

5. So we can both agree that Balon was a fool that allowed his personal vengeance blind him to any success? He had no way of defeating a recently reunited Seven Kingdoms lead by a strong king, and with some very strong supporters. He had no way of picking a fight with Ned, so he went after his son, because Ned beat the crap out of him. If he had any sense about him, Balon would have accepted Robb's terms and allied with him, while in the other hand sharpening a dagger to bury in his back. He had so much more to gain by going after Casterly Rock, and helping Robb in the short term, while planning and moving towards Robb's demise in the long term. He could have easily sent Victorian to Lannisport and moved towards Casterly Rock and seized all the gold needed to hire sellswords and then turned on Robb. Instead of doing this, he was a bully that wanted to pick on the son of the man he seems to hold responsible for his own foolish choices.

[E-Ro]

The wiki says that:

"Under the rule of House Hoare, the ironborn reached the zenith of their power approximately four centuries ago. They ruled over the Riverlands and much of the western coast of Westeros"

This would include some of the North (most notably Bear Island), the Arbor and the Reach's western coast, as well as presumably some of the Westerlands, around the Banefort/The Crag.

im pretty sure the ironborn never controlled that area. They did kill of the woodfoots, but house mormont replaced them. arg damn just looked at a map woops my bad i will now eat my words.

[E-Ro]

Oh and my vote goes to Tyrell 100,000 is far more the anyone else, its to many to face head on.

[Lothar Imbel]

Before I produce my counter points, how do I quote passages as you did? That would make it a lot easier to read, instead of a wall of text.

Add [ quote ] [ / quote] marks around the passage you want to select, like this:

1. They did control the Riverlands, which was the base for their power on continental Westeros. Why was that their base, because it was the easiest for them to invade and control. If only we knew more about how Harren gained the Riverlands we would have a better idea of how he controlled the Riverlands. So with knowing what we know about the present day Iron Born, I would assume that they used much of the same tactics, like a blitzkrieg assault, and then dominated the local population. Yes a quick strike on an unsuspecting opponent is a very good tactic, but not too useful in as a long term solution, once bigger badder guys get involved. Just ask Nazi Germany or Japan.

We know little about the way the Ironborn managed to controll the Riverlands, but it was certainly effective enough that they were able to hold onto it right up until Aegon landed, which certainly suggests that they can hold onto the lands they conquer if they want to (having lost conquests like Bear Island to a wrestling match).

2. Yes I concede they would run and use guerrilla tactics, I argue that they are doing this not because they are warriors, but because they are pirates and pillagers. The majority of the time they are attacking merchant vessels, or fishing villages. How often do we see them attacking forts or castles? Again I'm not arguing that they use ineffective tactics (because clearly they are), but rather their tactics are centered around pirating and pillaging, those aren't exactly the tactics to use in a war.

In Balon's second rebellion, they attack multiple castles, Moat Callin, Deepwood Motte, Winterfell... I think that the raiding tactics are sort of a compensation - due to the small size of the Iron Islands, they have to be economical with their troops, which raiding and piracy suits.

3. How did that turn out for Balon? He got to see his two oldest sons die, and his fleet smashed. What was his greatest achievement in his rebellion? The destruction of the Lannisters fleet. They were able to destroy the fleet, and look what that got them. Would you argue that the Japanese achieved much by bombing Pearl Harbor?

I was talking about his second rebellion, I always assumed the first one was merely about being able to raid again.

4. We can use the Reach and the North as examples. By time Balon launches his assult, the North has been basically emptied of all of its fighting men. IIRC wasn't Rodrick Cassel able to beat the Iron Born away from Torrhen's Square with what was left in the North? By the time Euron sends reavers down to the Reach, hasn't much of the Tyrell forces moved north towards KL? When they invaded and controlled the Riverlands, wasn't that because the rivers allow easy transport through and because the Riverlands have no natural borders?

Personally, I was talking about the Ironborn at their zenith under House Hoare, as only then can you see how truly effective they were as fighters and conquerors. Otherwise, it's like judging the smilitary of the Roman empire by it's state in 1453 alone. However, I would like to point out that I'm not arguing that the Ironborn are the strongest military force ever, or perhaps even in Westeros, but I think there's more to them than simple raiders and pirates.

5. So we can both agree that Balon was a fool that allowed his personal vengeance blind him to any success? He had no way of defeating a recently reunited Seven Kingdoms lead by a strong king, and with some very strong supporters. He had no way of picking a fight with Ned, so he went after his son, because Ned beat the crap out of him. If he had any sense about him, Balon would have accepted Robb's terms and allied with him, while in the other hand sharpening a dagger to bury in his back. He had so much more to gain by going after Casterly Rock, and helping Robb in the short term, while planning and moving towards Robb's demise in the long term. He could have easily sent Victorian to Lannisport and moved towards Casterly Rock and seized all the gold needed to hire sellswords and then turned on Robb. Instead of doing this, he was a bully that wanted to pick on the son of the man he seems to hold responsible for his own foolish choices.

Definitely. Effectlively, Balon was a pretty bad Ironman. His plan was based on vengence, rather than wealth, which was a pretty foolish idea. If he'd sacked Lannisport and taken Casterly Rock, Balon would've been the richest man in the 7 kingdoms, and if his plans of attack were sucessful, would've had the Westerlands under his rule. Doing this would've created the discord the Ironborn rely on to be sucessful, and deprived of Casterly Rock even if the Lannister/Tyrell alliance won Blackwater, they would struggle to wrest the Ironborn/The North from the Westerlands, solidifying Balon's rule as 'King of Iron and Gold' or something (sounds better than 'Isles and the West' at any rate). Whether or not he would need to attack Robb is another matter, what with a presumably ongoing state of war in the Reach. Of course, in the advent of the Red Wedding (assuming it still happened), the Ironborn could attack the north that way.

[The Drunkard]

I'm just gonna cop out and say Tyrell.

100/80 thousand man army was the first host they rallied, and no matter the experience, I doubt a 20 thousand northman army or 40 thousand Lannister army could defeat the Tyrells.

[Lord Paramount of Essos]

I think Dornish armies have to be pretty awesome.

Light cavarly with spears (i think it is mentioned in the book about dornish horses being so strong)

Strong lines of Dornish spearmen can vanquish heavy cavarly.

I tbink they are united and strong, with Arthur Dayne and Darkstar and the red viper having the general command i think they can beat the Tyrells with the Golden Company and some Stormlords at their side (remember, Swann didnt side with Renly or Stannis or Joffrey yet).

From Westeros total war it is quite plain. I had big numbers of dornish spearmen hidden in the Kingswood and Joffrey's army (which was twice my numbers) marching. They got their asses kicked, when lines of spears defended a long line from enemy forces with knights and heavy infantry, while Dornish cavarly swift and powerful constably flanked and retreated. I think that they have a special army composition and thus are a force to be reckoned with.

[kimo333]

Robb won battles because of his military intelligence. Because he made up those plans 1) deceiving Tywin and winning in the Whispering Wood 2) Taking the Lannisters unaware at I-forgot-the-place.

Otherwise he left the entire North undefended and got his own castle sacked TWICE and burned down.

I give it to the Lannisters. Both Jaime and Tywin had incredible military intelligence and Tyrion did great defending King's Landing.

But Randyll Tarly is said to be the greatest mind in military.

agreed, and if I'm remembering correctly, the average Lannister man is better equipped and trained

[StannisBamfatheon]

Definitely the Iron Born. Most soldiers of Westeros are just peasants who meet for war. But not the Iron Born, they are warriors. Strength is everthing on the Iron Islands. Weak guys like Joffrey or Lancel would just die there..

I would argue the Ironborn don't even have a military. By population alone they have insufficient troops to field a standing army. Sure they have the Ironfleet but let's not kid ourselves and say that's this dreaded armada that's the scourge of Westeros. Stannis crushed Victarion and the Ironfleet and pretty much paved the way for the invasion of the Iron Islands by his brother. The only time the Ironborn give land battle is when the place is caught unawares and lightly defended. Their cowards. Balon the idiot would never had the gall to invade the North if their ENTIRE military hadn't gone south. Conversely I would say that pound for pound the North has the best fighting force. Strong and capable commanders (Ned, Robb, Roose before....well, you know, Greatjon), a hard and harsh upbringing, fairly decent numbers given the size of the territory, and a certain unity that the other houses seem to lack, atleast before RW. Now it's kind of a hodgepodge.

[Free Northman]

I'm not so sure on the history of Bear Island.

Yes it was controlled by the Iron Born in the distant past, but I'm not so sure that it was controlled by them as recently as 400 years ago as is claimed above.

My understanding was that the Rodrik Stark who won Bear Island in a wrestling match from the Ironborn King is a different and much more ancient Rodrik from the more recent one that was known as the Wandering Wolf who was a member of the Second Sons some 400 years ago. I think the Wiki is mistaken in confusing them as the same Rodrik.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the Rodrik who won Bear Island was the son of Rikard who won the Neck from the last Marsh King and married his daugther. And I believe this happened more than 3000 years ago, as Rikard was the son of Jon Stark who established the Wolfs Den thousands of years before the future city of White Harbor was built at the mouth of the White Knife.

I think that the Ironborn last ruled Bear Island more than 3000 years ago. Instead, they raided it over the years after that, hence the Mormont's hatred for the Ironborn. But I believe it is stated that the Mormonts are an ancient House. It is highly unlikely that they have only ruled Bear Island for 400 years.

[E-Ro]

I agree with anyone saying the ironborn are not good warriors. They have no heavy cavalry, that fact alone makes them inferior to everyone else in westeros. Also the lannisters lose alot, the green fork was indecisive and roose was using it as a diversion, at the end of got the lannisters are finnished. They get lucky and the tyrells save them. Maybe their troops are a bit better equiped, but their leadership is not that great Tywin is more of a politician and jaime is a swordsman, not a leader.

[Lothar Imbel]

If the Ironborn only ruled Bear Island thousands of years ago, why is it on the Arms of House Hoare, the family that ruled the Ironborn after the Andal invasion? In addition, the Mormonts may still have been vassals of the Ironborn, just as the Tullies and the River Lords were lords under them when they ruled the Riverlands.

[Free Northman]

If the Ironborn only ruled Bear Island thousands of years ago, why is it on the Arms of House Hoare, the family that ruled the Ironborn after the Andal invasion? In addition, the Mormonts may still have been vassals of the Ironborn, just as the Tullies and the River Lords were lords under them when they ruled the Riverlands.

This is a fair point, although I would add that the Andal invasion was 6000 years ago, and if Bear Island was won by the North 3000 years ago, then the Hoares would still have ruled it after the Andal invasion.

However, I concede that the wiki states that the Rodrik that won Bear Island was the same Rodrik that joined the Second Sons about 400 years ago.

I distinctly recall, however, that the wiki - prior to Dance - seemed to list the Rodrik that won Bear Island as the grandson of Jon Stark who built the Wolf's Den at the future site of White Harbor, between 3000-4000 years ago.

Somewhere someone interpreted the two Rodriks to be the same person, but it is never confirmed in the books as far as I can recall.

EDIT:

Although, after reading the order in which Bran recites the Kings in the North from old to new, Rodrik is the one he mentions just before Torhenn, the King who Knelt 300 years ago. Therefore it seems feasible that Rodrik lived not to long before Torhenn. So I guess 400 years is about right.

[Lord Martin]

Its the Starks, assuming we're talking no Dragons.

Lets start w/ Robert's Rebellion.

Battle of the Bells? Ned Stark saves Robert's behind.

Sack of King's Landing? Ned Stark first into the Throne Room.

Seige of Storms End? Ned Stark saves Stannis' life.

The Greyjoy Rebellion? Ned is the first man over the walls of Pyke followed closely by Barristan the Bold.

Whispering Woods? Robb Stark captures the King Slayer

The Western Capaign was waged with very few men and was highly successful.

Robb Stark went south with about 20,000 men. The Lannister's had 60,000 and Renly 100,000, Robb outbattled all of them (but obviously was outwitted badly).

So if I needed an army at my back, I'll take a Northern Army any day.

[StarkSupporter]

Add [ quote ] [ / quote] marks around the passage you want to select, like this:

I would say that we can make a very good educated guess as to how Harren Hoare controlled the Riverlands. We know that Balon wants to return to the Old Way, and we see that he launches quick sneak attacks against unsuspecting opponents. We see this when he attacks Lannisport, the North, and the Reach. We can guess that Harren used a similar tactic. I would also say its reasonable to guess that once in control, he could easily decimate(as in killing a portion of the population to keep control) the local population to maintain control. This is reaving and plundering, not war.

Under Balon, the Iron Born turn back to the Old Way, it makes no mention of war, but rather reaving, pillaging, and pirating. I would also point out that these places the Iron Born took, were either not defended or lightly defended at best.

Well now that I think about it, Balon's first rebellion was definitely a tougher decision. The realm was still united under a strong and fairly new-ish king, and Balon is closest to two of Robert's strongest supporters, the Lannisters and the Starks. His second rebellion, he attacks the North, when Robb had taken all the fighting men out of the North, leaving mostly green boys and old men. The same can be said for Euron invading the Reach.

I would say that they did not gain what they had under House Hoare by way of war, but rather through reaving and pillaging, as the Old Way calls for. Again the Old Way does not call for war, but rather for reaving, which is different from war. We have never seen the Iron Born be successful in a military engagement.

[ quote] Definitely. Effectlively, Balon was a pretty bad Ironman. His plan was based on vengence, rather than wealth, which was a pretty foolish idea. If he'd sacked Lannisport and taken Casterly Rock, Balon would've been the richest man in the 7 kingdoms, and if his plans of attack were sucessful, would've had the Westerlands under his rule. Doing this would've created the discord the Ironborn rely on to be sucessful, and deprived of Casterly Rock even if the Lannister/Tyrell alliance won Blackwater, they would struggle to wrest the Ironborn/The North from the Westerlands, solidifying Balon's rule as 'King of Iron and Gold' or something (sounds better than 'Isles and the West' at any rate). Whether or not he would need to attack Robb is another matter, what with a presumably ongoing state of war in the Reach. Of course, in the advent of the Red Wedding (assuming it still happened), the Ironborn could attack the north that way.

I guess we can at least agree that Balon was an ass that had no idea how to accomplish anything, especially later in life, because he was blinded by his desire for vengeance.

[E-Ro]

Its the Starks, assuming we're talking no Dragons.

Lets start w/ Robert's Rebellion.

Battle of the Bells? Ned Stark saves Robert's behind.

Sack of King's Landing? Ned Stark first into the Throne Room.

Seige of Storms End? Ned Stark saves Stannis' life.

The Greyjoy Rebellion? Ned is the first man over the walls of Pyke followed closely by Barristan the Bold.

Whispering Woods? Robb Stark captures the King Slayer

The Western Capaign was waged with very few men and was highly successful.

Robb Stark went south with about 20,000 men. The Lannister's had 60,000 and Renly 100,000, Robb outbattled all of them (but obviously was outwitted badly).

So if I needed an army at my back, I'll take a Northern Army any day.

Yes the starks have the best leadership and some good luck and i love the starks, but in a pitched battle 100,000 versus the norths 50,000 is simply to many.

[The Frosted King]

Proven thus far?

The Starks, though now gutted like a candle in the wind.

Who i really reckon though?

The Arryns.

Rich lands, constant sharpening of swords on the necks of hill tribesmen, should make them tough as northeners, but better equiped due to better, yielding lands.

[David C. Hunter]

Obviously the Tyrells can field 100,000 men, but they consists of houses all over the reach. How many soldiers can Highgarden produce? Alot less. I'd say 10,000. The Hightowers can amass 5x that amount. The Tyrells strength in the Reach resides with the Tarlys and Hightowers, not their own strength.

The Tarlys > Hightowers > Tyrells. Tyrells as liege lords of the Reach is tenuous.

I will say that the Reach maybe has the best swordsmen overall in good weather, but the Tyrells can easily be defeated if one or both of their houses turncloak which I believe will happen.