Which great family has the most effective military?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Not when you consider the nature of both Roose and Walder. If you analyse Roose' actions it seems he was willing to betray Robb from the moment Robb gave him command

Thank you! I totally agree.

[Frey Pie]

Thank you! I totally agree.

My pleasure :cheers:

[Naathi Prince]

Not when you consider the nature of both Roose and Walder. If you analyse Roose' actions it seems he was willing to betray Robb from the moment Robb gave him command

There's willing, and then there's able. Roose needs the right situation to rebel, and if the North was nearly as invincible as you make it seem, he would never have gotten it.

Roose's betrayal says more about Roose than anyone else. He was delibrately losing battles and plotting with Jamie BEFORE the Red Wedding. He was simply waiting for a chance to switch sides and advance himself. He was never a loyal bannerman, simply playing the part. He saw his chance to advance his house and took it.

As for the Frey's how could you even bring them up. Saying you understand what they did is one thing, but using their betrayal as some example of the lack of military strength of the north is plain silly.

Yes, treacherous people are the ones who typically turn traitor. Roose was obviously playing Robb for a bit, but it began when he realized that Robb's aura of invincibility was gone, not before. As for the Freys, again, if the North was as strong as you claim, they wouldn't have turned traitor. Just basic logic, you only stab someone in the back if you believe you can still get them if they turn around just in time.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Yes, treacherous people are the ones who typically turn traitor. Roose was obviously playing Robb for a bit, but it began when he realized that Robb's aura of invincibility was gone, not before. As for the Freys, again, if the North was as strong as you claim, they wouldn't have turned traitor. Just basic logic, you only stab someone in the back if you believe you can still get them if they turn around just in time.

Once again you almost had me until the Frey defense. We can argue Roose all day. I don't think he waited until Robb's aura of invincability was gone, I think he would have betrayed him anyway. Ramsay was betraying Robb before anything anti-victory went down. He was part of the reason it all went to hell in the first place. How do we know he wasn't acting on Roose's behalf. I don't think it's stated in the books but that doesn't mean it's not a fact.

And Walder Frey is short sighted and petty. He's like Hyman Roth from the Godfather II, he thinks he'll live forver. He got the guts to make his move because the Lannisters were backing him and Roose likely alerted them to the opportunity. The Frey's thought that everybody would simply accept what happened and not cause any problems, that's just stupidity. I'm guessing taking hostages wasn't even THEIR idea, it was likely Tywin or Roose who suggested it. The Freys aren't worth defending because everybody in Westeros thinks what they did was wrong. Everybody. Even the people who hated Robb and the rebellion. They are the only ones who didn't understand that everybody would hate them. Thats clearly not rational thinking.

[Frey Pie]

There's willing, and then there's able. Roose needs the right situation to rebel, and if the North was nearly as invincible as you make it seem, he would never have gotten it.

Yes, treacherous people are the ones who typically turn traitor. Roose was obviously playing Robb for a bit, but it began when he realized that Robb's aura of invincibility was gone, not before. As for the Freys, again, if the North was as strong as you claim, they wouldn't have turned traitor. Just basic logic, you only stab someone in the back if you believe you can still get them if they turn around just in time.

Think about it Naathi. Roose was given charge of 16000 men because hes cautious and cunning. Just the man you want to go up against Tywin. Yet Roose goes completey out of character and does the inexplicable, breaking every rule of war and adhering to none of them. He had no plan at the GF. He never even committed his own men so far as we know, which would have made sense for an army whos routing. Why would Roose have acted so stupidly? He is not stupid. His non-tactic battle went the way he planned it to. Because it suited him. He had treachery in mind for the get go. If Robb wanted to win the war, hed have to do it on his own, which he very nearly did

The Freys broke trust for a number of reasons:

Roose was shacked up with him for months

Walders treacherous "Late Lord Frey"

Robbs betrayal

Tyrell/Lannister alliance

[Naathi Prince]

Once again you almost had me until the Frey defense. We can argue Roose all day. I don't think he waited until Robb's aura of invincability was gone, I think he would have betrayed him anyway. Ramsay was betraying Robb before anything anti-victory went down. He was part of the reason it all went to hell in the first place. How do we know he wasn't acting on Roose's behalf. I don't think it's stated in the books but that doesn't mean it's not a fact.

And Walder Frey is short sighted and petty. He's like Hyman Roth from the Godfather II, he thinks he'll live forver. He got the guts to make his move because the Lannisters were backing him and Roose likely alerted them to the opportunity. The Frey's thought that everybody would simply accept what happened and not cause any problems, that's just stupidity. I'm guessing taking hostages wasn't even THEIR idea, it was likely Tywin or Roose who suggested it. The Freys aren't worth defending because everybody in Westeros thinks what they did was wrong. Everybody. Even the people who hated Robb and the rebellion. They are the only ones who didn't understand that everybody would hate them. Thats clearly not rational thinking.

I think that Ramsey was acting under Roose's permission. After all, there is no adult Stark in the North, it is the perfect chance for the Boltons to expand their power base. However, if the victorious King Robb returns, Roose can always disown Ramsey. He's keeping his feet in both camps at that point.

I do agree that Walder Frey's actions weren't reasonable, but I still don't think he has the balls to do this if he in any way fear the North. Lets remember, Lord Walder didn't fear the North when the first marched either.

[Naathi Prince]

Think about it Naathi. Roose was given charge of 16000 men because hes cautious and cunning. Just the man you want to go up against Tywin. Yet Roose goes completey out of character and does the inexplicable, breaking every rule of war and adhering to none of them. He had no plan at the GF. He never even committed his own men so far as we know, which would have made sense for an army whos routing. Why would Roose have acted so stupidly? He is not stupid. His non-tactic battle went the way he planned it to. Because it suited him. He had treachery in mind for the get go. If Robb wanted to win the war, hed have to do it on his own, which he very nearly did

The Freys broke trust for a number of reasons:

Roose was shacked up with him for months

Walders treacherous "Late Lord Frey"

Robbs betrayal

Tyrell/Lannister alliance

Roose did exactly what he was supposed to do on the Green Fork, tried to win, and retreated in good order once he realized the day was lost. Where do you get the idea that he purposefully lost at the Green Fork?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I do agree that Walder Frey's actions weren't reasonable, but I still don't think he has the balls to do this if he in any way fear the North. Lets remember, Lord Walder didn't fear the North when the first marched either.

Point taken.

[Naathi Prince]

Point taken.

Incidentally, I think thats why Bolton married into the Frey family. While they can't project too much power without joining a Great House, they seem to be able to field at least 4500 men between themselves and their own bannermen. That along with House Bolton is a significant force.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Roose did exactly what he was supposed to do on the Green Fork, tried to win, and retreated in good order once he realized the day was lost. Where do you get the idea that he purposefully lost at the Green Fork?

Roose

- marched the night through, which means betting a lot on the minimal chance that Tywin is an utter idiot

- kept his own personal troops out of harms way

- put his rivals in the North at the most exposed positions

- was not ordered to win, but only to keep Tywin off Robb's back and conserve force

[Frey Pie]

Roose did exactly what he was supposed to do on the Green Fork, tried to win, and retreated in good order once he realized the day was lost. Where do you get the idea that he purposefully lost at the Green Fork?

He may not have purposely lost but he did nothing to encourage winning either. Basically Roose attacked like the GJ would have, which is excatly what Robb put him in charge not to do. Look at Rooses character and then judge what he did

He marched through the night trying to catch out a man he knew well wouldnt be caught out. This left his men tired and low on morale

He attacked Tywin in a defensible area, exactly where Tywin wanted him to attack

He never ordered his own men to fight, not even to help with the retreat so far as we know

Attacked when there was no need

Basically everything Blue Eyes just said (got there just infront of me)

What did Roose do to win? Ignore every rule of warfare? This isnt Roose trying to win

[They see me R'hollin]

The Dothraki

[Makes No Sansa]

The Lannisters... They have one of the best miltary chiefs, Tywin (who is very feared all throughout Westeros), a top warfare mind (Tyrion), a useful right hand for Tywin (Kevan), influence (connexions with the royal family) and the best swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms, the Kingslayer.

[Naathi Prince]

Roose

- marched the night through, which means betting a lot on the minimal chance that Tywin is an utter idiot

- kept his own personal troops out of harms way

- put his rivals in the North at the most exposed positions

- was not ordered to win, but only to keep Tywin off Robb's back and conserve force

He marched through the night to try to steal a watch on Tywin. If he had succeeded, Tywin's forces would have suffered great losses.

Smart man, I'd have done the same.

Smart man, I'd have done the same

Which is exactly what he did

[Darryk]

Lannisters have the gold to fund any military campaign, and efficient leadership in Tywin and Kevan (until recently anyway).

Sure they were getting their asses handed to them by Robb at the beginning, but who's to say where the war would have gone if not for the RW? Over a long period it would have been difficult to contend with the Lannister's resources and I think Tywin's experience would have won out at the end either way.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He marched through the night to try to steal a watch on Tywin. If he had succeeded, Tywin's forces would have suffered great losses.

Smart man, I'd have done the same.

Smart man, I'd have done the same

Which is exactly what he did

If. Such a loaded word. I could win 20 millions per week if I gambled. The chances are probably comparable. Everybody and his grandmother agrees that Tywin won't be caught with his breeches down, and then the backlash for the North is severe.

[Naathi Prince]

If. Such a loaded word. I could win 20 millions per week if I gambled. The chances are probably comparable. Everybody and his grandmother agrees that Tywin won't be caught with his breeches down, and then the backlash for the North is severe.

How so? Bolton didn't lose a ton of men in that battle

[Frey Pie]

He marched through the night to try to steal a watch on Tywin. If he had succeeded, Tywin's forces would have suffered great losses.

Smart man, I'd have done the same.

Smart man, I'd have done the same

Which is exactly what he did

Really Nathi? Anyone whos read any type of military manual will tell you-dont attack where your enemy expects you to, and dont attack where they want you to. Not to mention the one unbreakable rule:know your enemy. Roose knows Tywin, has info on Tywin, has scout reports on Tywin and yet throws it all out the window. If knowing Tywin, youd do the same thing then im not sure what to say

Not that there ever can be one manual for warfare, as war changes and circumstances may call for new approaches. But there are certain things that most people will teach you and these are a few common ones that Roose breaks when he knows 100% that he shouldnt

Roose should have marched south and jostled for position with Tywin. Set up a defensive position in rough, broken territory perhaps to nullify Tywins cavalry and make the best use of your infantry. Skirmish, skirmish, skirmish. Who knows by the time Tywin moves to destroy yoou Robb may have already won his victory and you can retreat. In any case, what Roose did was one of the worst plans, devoid of tactical merit

[Frey Pie]

How so? Bolton didn't lose a ton of men in that battle

At the GF? Well the next quote is 10000 men, but i imagine his losses were around 4000 men

[Naathi Prince]

Really Nathi? Anyone whos read any type of military manual will tell you-dont attack where your enemy expects you to, and dont attack where they want you to. Not to mention the one unbreakable rule:know your enemy. Roose knows Tywin, has info on Tywin, has scout reports on Tywin and yet throws it all out the window. If knowing Tywin, youd do the same thing then im not sure what to say

Not that there ever can be one manual for warfare, as war changes and circumstances may call for new approaches. But there are certain things that most people will teach you and these are a few common ones that Roose breaks when he knows 100% that he shouldnt

Roose should have marched south and jostled for position with Tywin. Set up a defensive position in rough, broken territory perhaps to nullify Tywins cavalry and make the best use of your infantry. Skirmish, skirmish, skirmish. Who knows by the time Tywin moves to destroy yoou Robb may have already won his victory and you can retreat. In any case, what Roose did was one of the worst plans, devoid of tactical merit

Roose's job wasn't to win, it was to keep Tywin busy. He did exactly that and we're not given any indication from anyone else that they were disappointed in his action.

I would do the same as Roose in not committing my men and sending mostly men from lords I don't get along with. After all, you want your most loyal men to yourself.