Heresy 14

[hotweaselsoup]

Though it is little more than circumstantial evidence-based guesswork, my 'feeling' is no, they are not blocked by the wall.

"Warding" seems "source-of-'magic'-dependent" when that 'ward' was put in place for a specific purpose (see CotF cave, see Wall -if i'm correct) If the Others can't pass, I would think the CotF could.

Yet at Storm's End, the ultimate defensive citadel fortress, I'm fairly confident its walls weren't warded against R'hllor specifically, but were warded against all magical incursion. (Then again... it is entirely possible that what is now called R'hllor & the red priests could easily have gone by another name or been represented by a different group at the time of Storm's End's construction).

If the wall was built specifically to stop the WhiteWalkers (which, despite many Heresy theories to the contrary, I still happen to believe), it stands to reason that Children could pass.

Conversely, however, if the wall was NOT built specifically to stop the Walkers, and was just a generic defensive structure, the Storm's End warding could apply... (BUT... I doubt anyone would object to the supposition that the Wall was built to keep a specific something out of somewhere, so as I stated above, I would think the cave warding rules would apply....)

**Second order projection... if the WW can't pass the wall, and giants can, the WW's are not just a separate race.... they're magical in nature.

*** Third order projection ... following this line of thought... it is most curious that Mel's powers have increased at the wall, whereas they were hindered at Storm's End. Make of that what you will... I shall have to think on it. Certainly doesn't support the legend that Brandon the builder constructed both structures (which makes me sad. I rather liked that legend.)

So many assumptions. This is like trying to play that old board game "Clue", but there are 10,000 different locations, weapons, and suspects.

Mel had no problem passing beneath the walls of Storm's End - it was her shadow baby that could not pass through on its own. So the warding seemed to prevent "disembodied energy", for lack of a better term. Likewise, Jafer and Othor manifested the blue eyes when they were found north of the Wall, which leads me to believe that they were already "impregnated" with WW energy when they were carried through the Wall, much like Mel was impregnated with her shadow baby when she was carried through the walls of Storm's End.

My sense is that the Wall is like a giant signal scrambler - Westeros' tinfoil hat, if you will. The Starks and the wolves can't sense each other when they are on opposite sides of the Wall, so the Wall seems to prevent a warg's ability to project his or her disembodied self from passing through it.

The fly in this ointment, however, is that Bran and Bloodraven both seem to be able to warg through the Wall. It may be that the weirnet is an interconnected, physical root system that passes either below or around the Wall, and which allows their minds to travel in an "embodied" state. Or perhaps the cave system they are in is in the Frost Fangs, west of the Milkwater, which may put them outside the influence of the Wall's interference.

I'm not sure why Mel's powers seem to be boosted at the Wall, but magic all over the world seems to be increasing as well. The pyromancers in King's Landing, the fire mages in Essos, the dragons, the resurgence of the Stark wargs, etc. It may be that the Wall itself is powering-up and acting as some sort of magic magnifier, or - and this just occurred to me - maybe the Wall is a magic repository, literally a wall of frozen, magic energy - which is now breaking down and "spilling" its magic energy into the world. Maybe the heat of the unusually long summer compromised the Wall so much that too much magic seeped out? (Okay, going hardcore crackpot here!)

Anyway, where I was originally going with that thought is that, although Mel's spells seem to be stronger at the Wall, her fire visions seem to be less clear. The images seem to be scrambled, and she is seeing a lot of "snow" - like a messed up TV signal.

[Frey Pie]

Question: If the freaking high wall is blocking the White Walkers, and apparently they can't fly over it or pass it at the sides across the seas, why does it need to be defended? Just close the gates and be done with it. :dunno:

Another question: Apparently the White Walkers come when it is very cold, with mists and fogs. Could the freaking high wall be responsible for the return of the White Walkers because it serves as a barrier and thus enables the very cold nights?

Bonus crackpot: I have posted it once or twice before but noone replied. Are the White Walkers of aquatic origin, i.e. jellyfish that took a solid form when exposed to extreme cold? That could link their origin as collateral damage caused by the hammer of water, explain why they can't pass the wall across the seas, and possibly tie them to the Kraken and the Ironborn.

I dont think i like your bonus crackpot bit, no offence. To go by the show which is safe to do with the WWs i believe, then they look like homanoids. Cant they make it so cold that he wall could crack? I also have a picture in my head of them climbing over the wall at an unbelievably fast pace. During the fight at the fist did they not climb the steepest slope easily? Might be wrong on that one

[Lummel]

...As fore the Direwolf - some of thpse leadig packs of regular wolfs would make a nice winter force indeed. So I guess, yes, they had actual direwolfs.

It is interesting, in terms of how the starks are presented to us, that while GRRM makes it obvious how destructive and powerful the dragons are in warfare he's coy when it comes to the direwolves. We don't get to see Grey Wolf at work - we only hear about it but seeing as he bit off The Greatjon's fingers as a puppy he must ahve been pretty horrific. Nymeria is quite happy taking down horsemen too. Just imagine a pack of those things on the battlefield or maybe used like Varamyr used his animals to terrify villagers.

[Uncat]

I dont think i like your bonus crackpot bit, no offence. To go by the show which is safe to do with the WWs i believe, then they look like homanoids. Cant they make it so cold that he wall could crack? I also have a picture in my head of them climbing over the wall at an unbelievably fast pace. During the fight at the fist did they not climb the steepest slope easily? Might be wrong on that one

Well, freezing a Wall of Ice gets you... a Wall of ice :)

[Frey Pie]

Well, freezing a Wall of Ice gets you... a Wall of ice :)

Well i was really grasping at straws here!! I cant imagine the others blowing into a horn to bring down the wall though!

[Uncat]

@Lummel

And that is an interesting difference. A bunch of Dragons might serve to build an impire. But if you command the wolfs in a world like the North of Westeros, you will really have a grip on it down to its last corners.

[Uncat]

Well i was really grasping at straws here!! I cant imagine the others blowing into a horn to bring down the wall though!

They would not need to blow it, if the Wall is theirs. Btw. A nice way of opening the Wall would be to lift the magic that holds it together and turn the frozen wave in just a wave washing away the Black pack behind it. Then you freeze the washup over again and walk right in (not saying, it will be this way, just again loving the visual)

[Lummel]

... But if you command the wolfs in a world like the North of Westeros, you will really have a grip on it down to its last corners.

I think you are right. No surprise maybe that the tombs of the dead lords and kings have a direwolf at their feet if they were the foundation of their power.

[Uncat]

Dead right, I know. It's just how we dead chicks are :P

[Uncat]

Btw. Whenever I read about Wargs, the Wolfriders from LOTR and zhe Hobbit pop up in my head. Now imagine those fierce and hairy old Starks riding their Direwolfs to war. Would you want to mess with those guys? I realy wouldn't

[nanother]

I do believe that the Kings of Winter were wargs. It's quite possible that Stark Kings had a wolf carved for them no matter what (surely if Torrhen or any of the more recent Starks had a direwolf running with them, someone would have mentioned it?) but it's more than likely that warg (and maybe even greenseer) ability appeared in the Stark family from time to time (and it was the origin of carving the wolves in the first place).

I think the weirwood network is connected across the Wall (not sure if there's any evidence in the text, but it makes sense, if they spread via suckers) It's strongly suggested that BR is able to warg through the Wall independently of weirwoods, but then he's both very powerful and well trained. He also says something to the effect that Bran will learn to transcend the tree network in time. Might be that at their respective stages of training Jon's ability is blocked, Bran can connect to the treenet and BR can connect to just about anything.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

I do believe that the Kings of Winter were wargs. It's quite possible that Stark Kings had a wolf carved for them no matter what (surely if Torrhen or any of the more recent Starks had a direwolf running with them, someone would have mentioned it?) but it's more than likely that warg (and maybe even greenseer) ability appeared in the Stark family from time to time (and it was the origin of carving the wolves in the first place).

I think the weirwood network is connected across the Wall (not sure if there's any evidence in the text, but it makes sense, if they spread via suckers) It's strongly suggested that BR is able to warg through the Wall independently of weirwoods, but then he's both very powerful and well trained. He also says something to the effect that Bran will learn to transcend the tree network in time. Might be that at their respective stages of training Jon's ability is blocked, Bran can connect to the treenet and BR can connect to just about anything.

Brans already in the Winterfell tree from across the Wall...

[DragonSpawn]

Just picking up the last few points from heresy 13 and above...

Eddard Stark is a version of LotR Faramir... His older brother and father were both too ambitious ... and their ambition got in the way of their duty. While i don't like to draw too many LotR parallels - that one always suited me fine...

At a guess: I would say the King of Winter was the original title... uniting the realm in the long night... Winter and Darkness all over the world... ridding the realm of evil etc... The King of Winter would be the most powerful warg... "A thousand skins" (BR Quote) ... at least ... bound by duty and honour.... his armies of the ice-zombies going from place to place .... pulling out 'weeds' root and stem... BUT...

Everyone hates super-wargs because of what can happen in desperate circumstances e.g. Bran-dor and Thistlemyr... how someone can be doing the right thing... trying to save you... and still has to put up with being warg-napped when things get tough... so the King of Winter was given a bronze crown with 9 iron spikes (possibly representing the 9 conquered kings or something)... this was to prevent him from warging - and was the only way people would feel safe around the king.... The King of Winter (again ... bound by duty and honour) withdrew his troops to the North after they had done their jobs and sent them back into hibernation at the request of the last hero (old-equivalent of Rickon)... The King of Winter then became simply... the King in the North.... and then everyone moved on with rebuilding their lives in Westeros...

Note: story could be tweaked in several ways... one example would be that the King of Winter left his brother to rule in Winterfell and buggered off to the LoaW (this scenario could play out in current story if Robb named Jon his heir with Rickon still around...) But essentially i think the KoW is more of a god-title... the KitN is more a human-title... exactly the same as we have Aegon the Conqueror (a god-like man with dragons) ... and Aerys Targaryen... has the same blood but was just a mental weirdo with no dragons...

[Uncat]

Well, we know of a Weirwood hub beneath the Wall. That tree with the Black Gate will spread its roots in both directions, I suppose. So it's all hardwired and connected

[bloodymime]

My sense is that the Wall is like a giant signal scrambler - Westeros' tinfoil hat, if you will. The Starks and the wolves can't sense each other when they are on opposite sides of the Wall, so the Wall seems to prevent a warg's ability to project his or her disembodied self from passing through it.

I was asking about this in the last topic but don't think I saw any replies. What do people think the difference is between Jon not being able to sense Ghost yet Bran is able to warg into the heart tree at Winterfell without even knowing what he was doing?

I don't see the Wall acting like a two mirror. Is Bran just that much stronger as well as Bloodraven? Is it different entering a tree than an animal? I know Mr. Martin has said all the children are full wargs, not just Bran but maybe it's a difference between warg and greenseer?

[Ser Leftwich]

I was asking about this in the last topic but don't think I saw any replies. What do people think the difference is between Jon not being able to sense Ghost yet Bran is able to warg into the heart tree at Winterfell without even knowing what he was doing?

I don't see the Wall acting like a two mirror. Is Bran just that much stronger as well as Bloodraven? Is it different entering a tree than an animal? I know Mr. Martin has said all the children are full wargs, not just Bran but maybe it's a difference between warg and greenseer?

I have always interpreted warging to an animal and entering a weirwood as two different powers. Bran has both, the others do not.

[nanother]

Well the point some of us were trying to make, is that Bran can connect to the Winterfell tree because it's connected to the weirwood network that runs across the wall.

BR's instruction:

“Close your eyes,” said the three-eyed crow. “Slip your skin, as you do when you join with

Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon

the hill, and tell me what you see.”

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood.

Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing

by below.

also

“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is

what you saw.”

So it's possible that followed the roots to Winterfell, instead.

[bloodymime]

Well the point some of us were trying to make, is that Bran can connect to the Winterfell tree because it's connected to the weirwood network that runs across the wall.

BR's instruction:

also

So it's possible that followed the roots to Winterfell, instead.

Are you saying you think the weirwood roots run for hundreds of miles underground? There's not enough weirwoods south of the wall, possibly north of it as well for it to be otherwise.

[Frey Pie]

I was asking about this in the last topic but don't think I saw any replies. What do people think the difference is between Jon not being able to sense Ghost yet Bran is able to warg into the heart tree at Winterfell without even knowing what he was doing?

I don't see the Wall acting like a two mirror. Is Bran just that much stronger as well as Bloodraven? Is it different entering a tree than an animal? I know Mr. Martin has said all the children are full wargs, not just Bran but maybe it's a difference between warg and greenseer?

The weirtrees are a network. I can picture their roots are all interconnected and run even under the wall which is possibly a reason for the ability of Bran to look past the wall? or possibly a difference in strength and the way jon hasnt fully opened himself to warging

[nanother]

Are you saying you think the weirwood roots run for hundreds of miles underground? There's not enough weirwoods south of the wall, possibly north of it as well for it to be otherwise.

I have a feeling there are more weirwoods than you might think. S of the Wall AFAIK all the mountain clans have Heart Trees, there are some wild ones in the wolfswood, and as Uncat pointed out there's the one at Nightfort. I wouldn't be surprised it the roots of the felled ones were also functional (so they are not actually dead, just severely disabled...although that might be worse than dead...) And I remeber weirwoods were mentioned when someone (probably Jon) was musing about how the forests N of the Wall were kept at distance before, but had crept up right next to the Wall at most places since the Watch deserted them. So yes, I think an extensive weirwood root network is entirely plausible.